[philbur]

What about the price difference for the servo on the spindle. That at least would increase the basic machine capability.

Phil

[SCzEngrgGroup]

What about the price difference for the servo on the spindle. That at least would increase the basic machine capability.

Phil

In what way? What does a servo spindle get you, other than rigid tapping? And tapping can be done just as well in several other ways. If you do a LOT of tapping, the rigid tapping is a nice feature. For me, while I'd like to have it all else being equal, it really wouldn't add a lot.

Regards,
Ray L.

[philbur]

In what way? What does a servo spindle get you, other than rigid tapping? And tapping can be done just as well in several other ways. If you do a LOT of tapping, the rigid tapping is a nice feature. For me, while I'd like to have it all else being equal, it really wouldn't add a lot.

Regards,
Ray L.

You could use it as a CNC lathe?

Phil

[johnedward]

gee another thread in the tormach forum that is supposed to be about tormach is diverted to novakon once again, shocker.

[TurboStep]

We shouldn't forget that the Tormach ballscrews are only supported at one end. I wouldn't want to be the first to test them at servo speeds! On the other hand the Tormach is a very well balanced machine from a design point of view (and I believe that the tooling is also well matched to the capabilities of the machine) and I have no desire to go to servos.
I can recommend checking out the Novakon site I'm not sure if I find the comparison with the Tormach funny or not. The machine size of the Torus-Pro (actual size) is compared with the "Next Leading Competitor" (Shipping Dimensions) huh? The stand is priced at Novakon: Included, Tormach: "Add $1645" but the total price of the Tormach is given as $10125, which is exactly the price of the Tomach including Deluxe Stand - c'mon guys!!!
One other interesting point under "Features" -> "Axis Drives" is the note: (Step angle of 1.8°) - If I didn't know better, from this text I would assume that they don't use microstepping - or do they???
Step

[SCzEngrgGroup]

gee another thread in the tormach forum that is supposed to be about tormach is diverted to novakon once again, shocker.

Your attitude completely baffles me, and I know, many others. The whole reason CNCZone exists is to exchange information, so people can learn from the experience of others, and exand their knowledge and skills. What problem do you have with people expanding their knowledge, even if that requires occasionally stepping outside the world of Tormach-only? In what way are you threatened or harmed by that? Are you totally convinced there is absolutely nothing outside the world of Tormach worth knowing? If the OP truly has his heart set on a machine with servos, why shouldn't be know what choices he has, since Tormach has chosen not to use them? Where's the harm in passing along information that might actually be of value to him, even if it's not of value to you?

Perhaps you could get the admins to setup a new forum dedicated to Tormach, only Tormach, where anything non-Tormach would be explicitly banned, and the poster immediately banished? I think you'd find it a lonely place.

You're more than welcome to come on the Novakon forum and tell us about your Tormach machine, and you'll find plenty of people there willing to help you, even though you don't own a Novakon. You'll find people are willing to acknowledge that for some people the Tormach is a better choice. And you won't be attacked for simply expressing a perfectly valid opinion, provided you do it in an adult manner, and don't insult people just because you disagree with them. In fact, there are a number of Tormach owners whov'e already come there over the last year, after getting fed up with the childish "fan-boi" nonsense that goes on here, and they are tired of seeing anyone, even Tormach owners, who so much as hint that the Tormach is anything less than the most perfect and flawless CNC machine ever created by man get beat up for simply expressing their opinion.

Regards,
Ray L.

[Hirudin]

I've wondered about a servo spindle upgrade as well. I'd probably spring for one for my Novakon if it was offered (assuming there weren't any glaring drawbacks). I would like the rigid tapping ability (I don't like the ~140 mm (~5.5 in) my Procunier takes away from my Z travel.) and it would also be nice for boring (so the spindle can be stopped at a known location, the boring tip can be moved away from the bore, and the spindle can be retracted). I also like the idea that spindle speeds would be better known - I don't know how much it would help, but I'm not fond of the variances I'm currently getting.

It seems like there could be other uses for a spindle that could turn to a known location. Maybe probing could be enhanced? I know drag knives exist, but maybe a servo-spindle could do a better job on some materials (maybe thicker stuff? or more delicate stuff?).

[SCzEngrgGroup]

We shouldn't forget that the Tormach ballscrews are only supported at one end. I wouldn't want to be the first to test them at servo speeds! On the other hand the Tormach is a very well balanced machine from a design point of view (and I believe that the tooling is also well matched to the capabilities of the machine) and I have no desire to go to servos.
I can recommend checking out the Novakon site I'm not sure if I find the comparison with the Tormach funny or not. The machine size of the Torus-Pro (actual size) is compared with the "Next Leading Competitor" (Shipping Dimensions) huh? The stand is priced at Novakon: Included, Tormach: "Add $1645" but the total price of the Tormach is given as $10125, which is exactly the price of the Tomach including Deluxe Stand - c'mon guys!!!
One other interesting point under "Features" -> "Axis Drives" is the note: (Step angle of 1.8°) - If I didn't know better, from this text I would assume that they don't use microstepping - or do they???
Step

Yes, they do use micro-stepping - 10X on the stepper machines. Not sure that's spelled out on the Tormach site either, but so what?

The axis travels are also spelled out quite clearly - not sure why you find the comparison so "funny". The Torus Pro has axis travels of X 25", Y 15" Z 11.5", with a max Z height of about 16".

I'm sure you'll find this hard to believe, but for some people the Tormach is a better choice, for others the Novakon is a better choice. They are very different machines in a lot of ways. Why is that so hard for you to accept?

Regards,
Ray L.

[johnedward]

Your attitude completely baffles me, and I know, many others. The whole reason CNCZone exists is to exchange information, so people can learn from the experience of others, and exand their knowledge and skills. What problem do you have with people expanding their knowledge, even if that requires occasionally stepping outside the world of Tormach-only? In what way are you threatened or harmed by that? Are you totally convinced there is absolutely nothing outside the world of Tormach worth knowing? If the OP truly has his heart set on a machine with servos, why shouldn't be know what choices he has, since Tormach has chosen not to use them? Where's the harm in passing along information that might actually be of value to him, even if it's not of value to you?

Perhaps you could get the admins to setup a new forum dedicated to Tormach, only Tormach, where anything non-Tormach would be explicitly banned, and the poster immediately banished? I think you'd find it a lonely place.

You're more than welcome to come on the Novakon forum and tell us about your Tormach machine, and you'll find plenty of people there willing to help you, even though you don't own a Novakon. You'll find people are willing to acknowledge that for some people the Tormach is a better choice. And you won't be attacked for simply expressing a perfectly valid opinion, provided you do it in an adult manner, and don't insult people just because you disagree with them. In fact, there are a number of Tormach owners whov'e already come there over the last year, after getting fed up with the childish "fan-boi" nonsense that goes on here, and they are tired of seeing anyone, even Tormach owners, who so much as hint that the Tormach is anything less than the most perfect and flawless CNC machine ever created by man get beat up for simply expressing their opinion.

Regards,
Ray L.

first of all i was merely making an observation of the facts, is that not permitted by you? second, what makes you think i own a tormach? because someone makes note of something taking the tormach point of view they must in a tormach only world? wrong! i've shown in your other thread that was closed that you ARE truly anti tormach with a grudge against them no matter how you try feign otherwise. i've been to the novakon forum and anyone that disagrees with the hype you try to put out is unfairly called a troll. anyone that makes note of the many troubles that the novakon machines have out of the box are given the shellac treatment.

[LeeWay]

I've wondered about a servo spindle upgrade as well. I'd probably spring for one for my Novakon if it was offered (assuming there weren't any glaring drawbacks). I would like the rigid tapping ability (I don't like the ~140 mm (~5.5 in) my Procunier takes away from my Z travel.) and it would also be nice for boring (so the spindle can be stopped at a known location, the boring tip can be moved away from the bore, and the spindle can be retracted). I also like the idea that spindle speeds would be better known - I don't know how much it would help, but I'm not fond of the variances I'm currently getting.

It seems like there could be other uses for a spindle that could turn to a known location. Maybe probing could be enhanced? I know drag knives exist, but maybe a servo-spindle could do a better job on some materials (maybe thicker stuff? or more delicate stuff?).

Since I have had a servo spindle now, I would not consider doing it differently. Even if I would convert my other mill or build a new one, it would have a similar servo spindle with rigid tapping capability. Now Mach 3 alone is not capable of doing that by itself. The timing is not quite correct. Sheetcam and Bobcam both have posts that can be used with the Torus and Pulsar and the special switched BOB's. Mach 4 however, is supposed to have that fixed and at that point, it would not require a special BOB.

The servo spindle has very good low speed torque. That is useful in a lot of material. All of our parts require tapped holes. The fewest is one and the most is seven in different sizes. When you produce hundreds of parts every week for production, rigid tapping is priceless. So, in the spindle for me, a servo has distinct advantages and is well worth the cost.

[Hirudin]

I am observing that this thread is derailing into a "let's all discuss forum etiquette, at length, until the thread gets closed" kind of discussion.

Maybe idle observations should be kept to ourselves, eh?

[mike sr1]

This is kind of like going to a Corvette convention and talking up how a Mustang has some better feature etc.

There may be better features on a given machine but the place to discuss them is in a general forum.
I believe the Tormach forum should discuss Tormach, and if you have something to say about a Novakon, do it in the Novakon forum.

Most people are loyal to their own brand of machine, I know I am, this is just human nature.

Kind of like the Chevy Ford and Dodge arguments..

All the arguments do is run up the post counts of those involved without saying much of anything meaningful.

Just my personal opinion, which doesnt count for much............

[sansbury]

This is kind of like going to a Corvette convention and talking up how a Mustang has some better feature etc.

There may be better features on a given machine but the place to discuss them is in a general forum.
I believe the Tormach forum should discuss Tormach, and if you have something to say about a Novakon, do it in the Novakon forum.

In general I agree with you. If someone posts "Hey, I'm trying to do X with my Tormach and having problems," and someone posts, "See, you should've bought a _____!" then they're a troll.

In this case, the OP posted a question about the general design of the machine, and I think the choices of competitive builders are informative to that discussion. Tormach's white paper makes it sound like designing a sub-$10k machine with servos is very hard. The fact that Novakon has done it at least proves it's not *impossible*. Tormach may choose not to in order to spend more money on other parts of the machine, on providing warranty support/etc., or to put more cash in the owners' pockets, all of which would be valid business reasons, but it would be interesting to know.

Why are they still using steppers? My basic guess would be that like me, most buyers are content with the machine as it is, for the price it is, and the competition isn't nipping at their heels close enough to force them to make a change.

To Hirudin's point, it is funny to me that I put up a post a week or so ago about a project that got a whopping one response, while this could probably go on for ten pages. Then again, maybe my project stunk and this is one of those topics on which everybody gets to have an opinion. So it goes!

[philbur]

A person can ignore a thread, contribute to a thread or b***h about a thread. Why not give your input to the thread topic rather than objecting to the input given by somebody else. It will be a sad day when this forum is unable to tolerate a discussion that compares a Tormach with other machines.

Phil

[mountaindew]

I don't know much about all this stuff as a newer user.
The servo spindle upgrade mentioned above sounds cool. toss in live tooling also, just kidding!
Can only venture a guess. I would put my money that leeway hit on %50-%80 of the reason, On his explanation of servo spindles and how they are controlled and by what.
maybe even the reason for their delay of other products like their lathe...
just thinking..... I know butch just keep thinking that's what your good at!
md

[Tkamsker]

To come back to Steppers cost i would say you will have 250 € for triplebeast Controller 3 Steppers 90€ and cabeling 3 x 20€ so Rough calc to servo is 50% ,..


Gesendet von meinem iPad mit Tapatalk

[ThomD]

In this case, the OP posted a question about the general design of the machine, and I think the choices of competitive builders are informative to that discussion.!

Except the OP asked a specific question about Tormach design, and suggested he would be more likely to look at Tormach should they adapt servos. Which would tend to indicate his interest in discussing Tormach's decisions; his knowledge that others used servos, leading to his question about Tormach's decision not to use them; greater knowledge of the competitions machines than Tormach. To which the on topic response would not seem to be to emphasise all the points he already seems to have a handle on.

[Gerry Sweetland]

Nobody did.

I'm not very happy when Tormach owners are constantly complaining when people that don't own Tormach's have an opinion.

I was actually expecting a post similar to yours.

I don't know, just my opinion and probably based more on seat of the pants feel than fact but in the past couple of years there have been maybe two or three threads from people other than Ray that were really negative against Tormach and the actual Tormach owners came back quite quickly and quite sharply in rebuttal? I think everyone who frequents this forum in the last couple of years knows that more often than not Ray will take any opportunity he can to have a negative comment about Tormach (although usually hidden in the content of some sort of sage advice post) and some how get in a plug for Novakon. All based as it would appear because of his ongoing or past legal goings on and attitude towards Tormach. I think everyone sees it, but when community moderators post in support of the guy I give up. I'm tired of seeing his posts on this forum. I don't frequent here as often as I did and him and all the argument he creates is the main reason. I guess I'm not happy when Ray is constantly posting his opinion about Tormach.
But I'm nobody and this is just my 2 cents.
Gerry

[hjl4]

All this discussion is telling me that Tormach should at the bare minimum consider offering a Servo system as an upgrade. I don't care about their white paper. Most buyers don't. Make it an option. People will pay for the luxury, as Servo's are nice and quiet, but few here will ever reach the potential built into such a system. The spindle being the main limiting factor. Too slow and not enough power.
So Tormach made the right choice. Even a Novakon can't make maximum use of it's Servo axis potential. At 500 ipm as Ray mentioned, a 1/2" endmill 4 flute, in aluminum, at .25 DOC would require a 14 HP@18000rpm spindle. And even at that, you are still only at 470ipm. I'm sure accuracy would be out the window full of alarms and errors.
In the end, you get what you pay for.