[Edster]

I just had two employees that got into a fist fight with each other on the job. I broke it up as soon as I saw what was going on. The police were called and a report was filed. I suspended both employees until furthur notice. I talked with one of the guys (pat) and let him come back to work before the other (jared). The reason for this was that pat contacted me first and tried working thing out. I'm a small shop and can't afford to loose both of these guys. Jared contacted me later that week and refused to return to work if pat was working. I suggested that we give it a little more time for everyone to cool off before we make any final decisions. The next thing I know I'm getting a notice of an unemployment claim from jared. On the back of the form it lists reasons for "sufficient protest" and one of them is fighting. Has anyone had anything like this happen to them? Any advice you can give would be appreciated. Btw my shop is in Illinois.
Thanks,
Ed

[miljnor]

Its a legitamate claim for termination but there are always downsides. Ie. a lawsuite. Did anyone see who started throwing blows? The guy who defended himself would be the one in the right. The other guy is the one that should be fired.

The down side is (if your like CA) you will be dragged into the Unemployment court to waste your time and unless you seriously good at Kissing Arse or a very good legal debator then the employee will probably still collect unemployment.

This has been my experience

[Geof]

I think this might be the important point:

"Jared contacted me later that week and refused to return to work if pat was working"

Jared quit his job, is he really eligible for unemployment?

My company got into a time wasting thing with unemployment over an employee we fired. The laws a different here but one thing I learned was think things through very carefully at the beginning. Pick a strategy and stick with it. Everything ended up in our favor because the employee started dodging and weaving and didn't come up with the same story twice.

[Edster]

In my eyes jared did quit his job. He made no effort to contact me until it was friday (payday) then I get this notice in the mail. The notice said he was dismissed so he even lied to the unemployment office. As far as I'm concerned he's still on suspension.

No one saw the first few seconds of the fight, and as soon as I saw it I ran over and stopped it. It's a good thing I did because who know what would have happened.

[diarmaid]

I'd go with Geof on this one. If you are willing to allow him back to work and want him back at work, but he refuses, then his job still exists and he is quitting. If he continuously refuses to return to work then that gives you grounds to sack him without any backlash onto you. Just one or two things:

1) Whoever was defending themselves is VERY important to know. Maybe talk to the police and see what they are doing about it re. charges etc. If the guy you have back at work was the one in the wrong then your gonna get yourself in a world of s*/t. Have you called them both in individually yet and gotten their stories plus any witnesses? Do you have CCTV, probably not? You really shouldn't have let just one of them back to work without a course of action being decided upon.

2) Is this guy on suspension 'with' pay. If not you may be leaving yourself open. Both in general, if the issue regarding responsibility for the fight is not yet solved, and specifically because the other guy is back and being paid.

3) Do you have an employee handbook issued to each employee detailing dicipline procedures, and most that Im aware of specify that fighting is an automatic discharge and notification of the police? If not, its overdue time to get one done up.

4) Get everything in writing. Get them to submit in writing their stories. Issue them in writing what the company is doing about it (Should have been known previous to fight from employee handbook). This guy who wont come back to work, get him to write you a letter outlining why and then deal with those issues immediately. If he writes that he is afraid of the other guy attacking him, or that the other guy is a danger then sort it out, but he probably wont say something that logical, and will write something that you can use against him in court (But you really dont want it to come to that), such as that he doesn't want to work with the other guy because he's not reasonable, or a bad worker, or something stupid and stubborn. You should have employee files to back up if he is or is not a bad worker, and regardless its not this guys place to decide whos a good worker. You want to be able to stand in court and say that you bent over backwards trying to accomodate him but he absolutely refused to return to work for no logical reason. Then your covered.

5) It may be too late for some of these things and you may want to pay the $100 to see a solicitor for an appointment to get a professional opinion and course of action. At least he could tell you how to phrase any letters you write to the guy. He may tell u straight away that the guy hasn't a leg to stand on (Metaphorically speaking!).

In summary:
Employment law varies worldwide so some of this may not be applicable. But don't let this guy bully you. Tell him to come back to work (In writing), ask why he wont come back (In writing), deal with any issues raised and let him know your going to deal with it (In writing) and after you have dealt with it (In writing). Tell him that if he doesn't come back it will be grounds for dismissal (In writing). And dont forget to keep copies of all these letters. Get a solicitors opinion ASAP just to cover your ass.

Really you NEED to get both guy's in and sort it out with you as mediator. Its probably a mountain out of a molehill. You dont want to end up in court. Is this guy just trying to use this now to get some cash from you and then go get a new job when he knows he wont really win if it goes to court. Remember, its NOT your fault that they had a fight, you stepped in immediately as management as suspended both parties. You did everything right....until you took one back with the issue outstanding. But if you contacted the 2nd guy within a reasonable time of taking the first one back in then it isn't such a problem.

Good luck.

[diarmaid]

Just saw your last post. No-one saw the start...ok. Still get their stories in writing. If jared doesn't agree to your requests to come in and talk to you, and doesn't reply to your letters thats good news for you and will probably get you off the hook legally....maybe send them registered post....
By saying he was fired when he's actually on suspension he's already done one of two things:
1) Inadvertantly admitted responsibility for the fight.
2) Completed strike 1 against himself and his case for unfair dismissal.
He could say there was a misunderstanding and he thought he was dismissed....then you just say "Great, come on back to work tomorrow"!

[diarmaid]

Last point...I promise! In a situation like this often one employee will be quite rightly fired when its determined who was in the wrong, the trick is to treat everyone equally until you get to the bottom of it - - - Key Word = 'IMPARTIAL'.
If this guy does come back you still have the problem of resoving the workplace tension ASAP. Two essential but bitter employees not working together ok could sink your business.

[ViperTX]

Edster......so, one question.....what is your cost if you agree that Jared is eligible for unemployment?

[Rekd]

Jared quit his job, is he really eligible for unemployment?

Not knowing details... Refusal to come to work due to a clear and present threat to physical (and emotional) health is a valid reason to collect unemployment..

[NC Cams]

Send ANY written correspondence via registered restricted delivery mail with a signature required. Stops the "I never got the letter" gambit.

Do contact a lawyer/solicitor. As previously stated, all employment laws differ from state to state as do your rights and requirments.

Document the dates of any verbal communications and be sure to take DETAILED notes. It may be adviseable to record any further conversations with the involved parties. May not be legally admissable but it sure can come in handy for intimidation purposes.

EDIT:

Do you have a written substance abuse policy??? Mandatory pre-return drug test could make things real simple to deal with.

[RichHagen]

I don't know the laws in your state, but it seems to me that his job still existed, and he refused to return to it, therefore he quit. I would definitely contact a lawyer or specialist in your state. You may have to better document the fact that he was instructed to return to work, and that his position still exists. Then if he doesn't return, he can't claim he was fired. Without documentation, it is difficult to prove what happened. As for the comments on him feeling his safety was in jeopardy on returning, I would consult with the lawyer on that one, and if you do send him a notice to return to work, you may be able to mitigate that claim in that letter. Rich

[unterhaus]

most states will charge you out the wazoo for unemployment insurance if there is a claim against you, on the order of half pay.

It's cheaper over time to keep the guy on the payroll. I know I'm an overeducated wimp, but people should be able to avoid fistfights. I think fighting is not acceptable, and should be a firing offense. There are two sides to every fight, it's very unlikely that the person who threw the first punch was the only guilty party.

Along these lines, I was looking at jobs listings last night. One of the job descriptions included "must be able to work effectively with unreasonable people"

[pminmo]

"You must be determined to be unemployed through no fault of your own as defined under Illinois law." from:
http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/l...oyment_IL.html

[unterhaus]

"You must be determined to be unemployed through no fault of your own [/url]

I'm determined to be unemployed. I'm very determined, but it's not my fault. Now where's my check?

[lakeside]

Fired both of them unless you have just cause to keep one and not the other I'm sure in your company handbook that you gave both parties when hired it stated fighting is grounds for dismal after all workers can just be replaced right

[miljnor]

after all workers can just be replaced right

if only that were true!

[Bowman]

Does seem that the guy simply did not want to come back to work until he got his pouting way and had the other guy fired. At which point you will surely be knee deep in legal BS because that guy would then file for unemployment and you would have no ground to take a stand on releasing him when you still have the other guy working. I would think no matter what fighting at work would fall under immediate dismissal in most employee handbooks (unless your a boxer/UFC fighter) and as such would not entitle anyone to unemployment benefits since they both violated company policy.

Without anyone able to clarify who started with the verbal or physical actions I think the only way you will likely come out of this clean with both of them is to call them both into the office for a chat. Just tell them straight up you don't know what caused the fight and you don't really care. If you like and want to keep both employees tell them such and tell them to get over their grips with each other and get back to work with the stipulation that any more events will automatically get both of them fired. Document all this well and you should be ok with unemployment, its the lack of documentation over time that puts the employer on the spot to prove a pattern. If Jared still says I am not working here if Pat works here than that is his decision to quit and he has not been fired so your not on the hook for his decision.

If you need and like their work try to get them to get over it and move on for everyones sake. Remind them both that they could be fired for the original fighting to begin with and neither would get crap from unemployment so they should just shake hands and go on about their work.

Personally I have always found the unemployment agency much like any other state agency in that its so poorly run, slow and so inefficent that by the time they got around to approving me for benefits the two times I have gone in the past I had already found another job and never ended up getting a single check after all the waiting and paperwork anyway.

Good luck I know a lot of this will all depend on your States Employment laws but if Illinois is like Louisiana and it is a right to work state you can fire them for anything you want to. Just make damn sure you have signed documentation providing a time line of discussions over the issues with the employee(s) to validate your reason if you want to avoid paying them unemployment checks. If you can show a trend over time and that you did indeed try to address them to no avail you should be ok.

[delhierro]

hello i could give you a false name but i won't but let's say it would be in you best interest to keep the employee who contact you first i belive the second employee is a littel less concred about doing the right thing

[tim-tbl]

To be honest I would have fired them both on the spot(uk law allows you to do this its called gross misconduct and fighting is gross misconduct). Work is a place you go to for 40hrs or so a week, when you are there you should maintain a professional attitude(thats one of the things you are paid for), fighting on a shop floor just shows gross contempt and disrespect to the employer. You can always avoid a fistfight if you really want. I employ 7 men in my shop and they all know that fighting on the shop is unacceptable, so they don't(enough said).

[lakeside]

Gross misconduct is ground for temenation in Massachuttes but if you did not give them an employee handbook that stated that, the employee would recive employment but not his job back. Also if you fire one and not the other there could be ground for a lawsuite people fill suite like this because they know most companies will setle before trial because of cost.