[Semus]

Hey guys,

I am a small business owner in need of a machine that can cut through 1/8" thick aluminum. I know that this is the woodworking section of these forums, but there doesn't seem to be a section for CNC routers in the metalworking section (unless I missed it). I suppose these things really aren't meant for tough metals.

Anyhow, the designs we are cutting are 10" wide x 5-1/2" long x 1/8" thick. We were thinking of buying a plasmacam machine (about $12,000 including the plasma cutter). However, this just isn't an option for us. We don't have that kind of cash lying around to spend on a machine that large or that expensive.

We need a CNC machine that can cut through 6061 aluminum that is 1/8" (.125) thick, either in one pass or a couple of passes. The shapes we are cutting need to be very precise, and a CNC router could be an option if the price is right and the machine is capable of cutting aluminum that thick.

Does anyone have any suggestions on where I should start looking? Our budget is around $5000 or less, just for reference. Any options out there?

Just to give you guys an idea of what we're cutting, take a look at this video...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88Hi9cwa4HM

[nlancaster]

You should seriously consider the cncrouterparts.com kits. You can build a 4x4 machine for a bit less then $5000. and it can cut 1/8 aluminum. Thing to keep in mind you will probably have to take multiple passes even with the cncrouterparts machines. Just because routers are not as ridged as milling machines. But once you gain confidence in the machine, you can start a job and be working on other projects in the area while it works. And it would be more then capbable of cutting many pieces at once.

[Semus]

That sounds like a fairly viable option. Thank you for the links and info!

[Semus]

EDIT: I found a few routers that will suit my needs.

My next question is, how do I attach 1/8", 3/16", 1/4", 5/16", 3/8", 7/16", 1/2" end mills into these routers?

Let's take the Hitachi M12VC as an example. I don't see how you could attach these smaller end mills to this router. Smaller than 1/4", that is.

Is there some sort of adapter/s I have to buy in order for these end mills to work? Or, do I just purchased end mills with a 1/4" or 1/2" shank?

I did manage to find this: MLCS Woodworking Adaptor Bushings and Ball Bearing Guides

I don't know how viable those bushings would be for use with end mills...

[idahoflyfisher]

someone else can correct me if i'm wrong, but I don't think that cncrouterparts.com sells routers. They sell mounts (under Other Products menu) for various sizes of routers, but you supply your own router. Routers are not terribly expensive, depending on how big you get.

Fixed Base Routers

Prices vary from ~$150 to $300. You might even find better prices somewhere else.

Personally, I would buy the smaller end mills with 1/4" shanks. Less pieces to worry about being able to slip...

[Semus]

Personally, I would buy the smaller end mills with 1/4" shanks. Less pieces to worry about being able to slip...

That's a good idea. Although, I don't know how much more expensive they are with those larger shanks. Thanks for the heads up on the routers. Seems I have some choices to make

[bhurts]

Precisebits.com sells collet and nut sets for routers. They work very well and will allow you to use any shank size you need to. Make sure you get the set that's made for the router you choose if you go that route. As for smaller bits look for drillman1 on eBay for those. They are high quality and relatively cheap.

Ben

[wizard]

EDIT: I found a few routers that will suit my needs.

My next question is, how do I attach 1/8", 3/16", 1/4", 5/16", 3/8", 7/16", 1/2" end mills into these routers?

If you get the right router you can buy collets for it in a number of sizes.

Let's take the Hitachi M12VC as an example. I don't see how you could attach these smaller end mills to this router. Smaller than 1/4", that is.

Is there some sort of adapter/s I have to buy in order for these end mills to work? Or, do I just purchased end mills with a 1/4" or 1/2" shank?

Usually end mills with alternative shank sizes come in limited sizes. You will be better off buying collets or instead getting a router spindle with an ER taper. We are talking router spindles meant for machine tool use here.

I did manage to find this:

Adapter bushings are a workable solution but that isn't high praise.

I don't know how viable those bushings would be for use with end mills...

Hey guys,

I am a small business owner in need of a machine that can cut through 1/8" thick aluminum.

Volumes, precision, Alloys, project duration, sheet sizes & etc. all impact answers. We don't even know what you are making here.

I know that this is the woodworking section of these forums, but there doesn't seem to be a section for CNC routers in the metalworking section (unless I missed it). I suppose these things really aren't meant for tough metals.

You can buy some really impressive commercial machines if you have the cash. Most of these large machines aren't recommended for steel but aluminum is a snap. The biggest issue you run into is coolant

Anyhow, the designs we are cutting are 10" wide x 5-1/2" long x 1/8" thick. We were thinking of buying a plasmacam machine (about $12,000 including the plasma cutter). However, this just isn't an option for us. We don't have that kind of cash lying around to spend on a machine that large or that expensive.

Parts that size aren't impossible on a mill.

We need a CNC machine that can cut through 6061 aluminum that is 1/8" (.125) thick, either in one pass or a couple of passes. The shapes we are cutting need to be very precise, and a CNC router could be an option if the price is right and the machine is capable of cutting aluminum that thick.

Very precise and routers shouldn't be used in the same paragraph. If you are cutting out parts on a bandsaw that isn't precise. If you need true precision you are likely to blow out your budget. A good compromise might be to build a really stiff bench top machine.

Does anyone have any suggestions on where I should start looking? Our budget is around $5000 or less, just for reference.

Well honestly for a business buying used makes sense.

Any options out there?

Just to give you guys an idea of what we're cutting, take a look at this video...

The video is nice but it tells us nothing about what you are building. From the video my guess is that you have little need for precision. The idea that you had intentions of using a plasma machine further supports the idea that precision isn't important. If this is actually the case then you can get by with a sloppy machine.

However if you do have a need for good surface finish, precision and rapid production then you will need a rather stiff machine. Probably one that can contain the chips and coolant. If you have significant volume you will need coolant/cutting oils. If you end having to change tooling often you may find a router troublesome. A mill that can be adapted to an Automatic Tool Changer (ATC) might make more sense. You can do ATC on a router type machine nut that is an entirely different spindle.

I'm the end a machine used for business purposes has an entirely different set of economics than one for hobby use. Instead of pulling a budget out of no where for this machine you should really look at what is required to get the job done. See if the machine required meets the budget considerations of the entire project. If not contract the parts out.

[pippin88]

You want spindle speed control for metal. Look at a Chinese spindle (eBay) which use ER collets.

How long is a piece of string? (How precise are your design needs.) To some people nearest mm is precise, to others it's single micron.

[vtx1029]

From the looks of that part it would fit on a small mill like a G704. For production runs I would look at converting a small mill or buy a commercial router. If your business is in it to make $ don't fool around with hobby machines. You also really need to look at doubling or tripling your budget. I have a crp 4x4 and while it will do what you want to do it's not the best tool for the job and you'll have a steep learning curve to produce good parts.

[Semus]

Some points of clarification here, just to satisfy some questions...

I am definitely looking for accuracy. How much accuracy? Well, that depends. As others have mentioned, some prefer 1mm and others prefer 1 micron. That's a big difference, even if it doesn't seem like it to a non-machinest.

If my parts were off by .010, I don't know that I'd be upset by it. The holes we need to make in said parts don't have to be that accurate. They have to be 1/4" holes, give or take 10-15 (or more) thousandths. What I am most concerned with are the outside dimensions. The shape of those pieces are what matters most. They have to be within .010. Is that asking too much from the machines from CRP? From the looks of it, those machines can do the job. If they can't, please feel free to offer other solutions.

As far as tripling my budget, not gonna happen. Case closed on that one.

I have a G0704 already. CNC? no. Some of the parts we need to make are beyond the capabilities of the G0704 (too wide), so that's not an option.

I'm seriously considering the CRP, simply because of budget. Yes, there might be a steep learning curve that comes with using those machines, but this isn't something I am unfamiliar with. We'll make it work.

The video is nice but it tells us nothing about what you are building. From the video my guess is that you have little need for precision. The idea that you had intentions of using a plasma machine further supports the idea that precision isn't important. If this is actually the case then you can get by with a sloppy machine.

If you take a look at the first part of the video, you'll see a completed piece sitting on the bandsaw. That's what we're making. There's more to the actual product, of course, but that's the piece we need to cut using the CNC machine. And yes, we do have a need for precision. What you see in the video is just one part meant for prototyping.

Just to give you a rough idea here, the part you see in the video is just about the biggest piece we'll be making for our first product (sim racing pedals). If you watch our other videos on YouTube, it explains what we're all about (my apologies for not including that in the first post).

I'm the end a machine used for business purposes has an entirely different set of economics than one for hobby use. Instead of pulling a budget out of no where for this machine you should really look at what is required to get the job done. See if the machine required meets the budget considerations of the entire project. If not contract the parts out.

I do see where' you're coming from. Unfortunately, we are forced to start off small. That means little volume in the beginning. The budget depends on what sort of interest there may be for our product. Right now, we're still in the development phase. We don't even have a working prototype. This is why I'm asking questions now, rather than later when it could be too late. We're trying to do as much research as we possibly can before we have to make another big purchase. We have absolutely no way of gauging what type of volume we're going to be doing. If I had to guess, I'd say "very VERY small". At least in the beginning.

Now, if you want raw numbers in terms of how many pieces we need to make in a given time frame, I'm afraid I can't give you that. But, just as an estimate (this is just an estimate - we have no real way of knowing how much volume we'll be doing), we'd be extremely excited if we were to sell 100 of these things per year. That's probably a gross exaggeration, but it's the best I can do. So, with that number in mind, multiply that by 6 (that's how many of those pieces are in a complete set of pedals) and you've got your total number for one year (again, just an estimate - or better yet, a guess). There are, of course, other little pieces that would need to be cut, but you get the idea.

To go a bit further, this isn't going to be a manufacturing plant. The Sim racing market is very small. We're entering a "hobby" market. We're not going to get rich doing this, but that's not the point. That's not why we got into this. We'd be happy to break even. Oh sure, the point of every business is to make money, but we're primarily focused more on giving the public a viable, more affordable option than what's out there currently (within the high end custom pedal market - again, very small). Is that crazy?

I don't see any negativity here, but you'd be surprised how many naysayers we've encountered over the past year or so. So many people have told us we're crazy and we won't succeed. We're doing this because we love it. We're doing this because we want to give back to a community that has given us so much pleasure over the last 15 years. This is our contribution. Will we fail? Who knows. But I think the real failure is not even trying.

Anyhow, Sorry for the rant. it's a bit late. I'm open to suggestions, but $5000 is it. That's all we've got. I think we've found the right machine for the job, but I'm always willing to take suggestions.


EDIT: Directly from their website - Repeatability to +/-0.002" or better, accuracy to +/-0.005" or better

[wizard]

Some points of clarification here, just to satisfy some questions...

I am definitely looking for accuracy. How much accuracy? Well, that depends. As others have mentioned, some prefer 1mm and others prefer 1 micron. That's a big difference, even if it doesn't seem like it to a non-machinest.

If my parts were off by .010, I don't know that I'd be upset by it. The holes we need to make in said parts don't have to be that accurate. They have to be 1/4" holes, give or take 10-15 (or more) thousandths. What I am most concerned with are the outside dimensions. The shape of those pieces are what matters most. They have to be within .010. Is that asking too much from the machines from CRP? From the looks of it, those machines can do the job. If they can't, please feel free to offer other solutions.

Well at least you have narrowed down the specs into a range that a router type machine is capable of. You will want a fairly robust machine though.

As far as tripling my budget, not gonna happen. Case closed on that one.

If this is the case you should seriously consider farming the parts out to a local job shop. It is the smart thing for a job shop to do as you can avoid tying money up in capital before knowing more fully what the market is like. Many many businesses get started that way.

That being said it sounds like a router type machine might be extremely useful for the business you are in. Still you can't buy everything at once. This is why you often here business men talk about building their companies up over time, sometimes that is very literal.

I have a G0704 already. CNC? no. Some of the parts we need to make are beyond the capabilities of the G0704 (too wide), so that's not an option.

I'm seriously considering the CRP, simply because of budget. Yes, there might be a steep learning curve that comes with using those machines, but this isn't something I am unfamiliar with. We'll make it work.

Honestly I think that is a bad idea. Mainly because the frames look to be to light for what you want to do. The learning curve is more a question of trying to make something that is less than ideal work. In other words you end up spending more time screwing around than would be required if you took a different route.

If you take a look at the first part of the video, you'll see a completed piece sitting on the bandsaw. That's what we're making. There's more to the actual product, of course, but that's the piece we need to cut using the CNC machine. And yes, we do have a need for precision. What you see in the video is just one part meant for prototyping.

I looks like a part you could do on a router type machine. Given that the machine is fairly robust and you have a coolant system in place. On the other hand it is sheetmetal and there are many other ways to fabricate sheet metal parts. You should investigate all of these alternatives. Note also that as sheetmetal gets thinner it becomes more and more difficult to machine with a rotating cutter.

Just to give you a rough idea here, the part you see in the video is just about the biggest piece we'll be making for our first product (sim racing pedals). If you watch our other videos on YouTube, it explains what we're all about (my apologies for not including that in the first post).

It helps to understand context, volumes and such.

I do see where' you're coming from. Unfortunately, we are forced to start off small. That means little volume in the beginning.

Seriously this suggest to me that you need to contract the parts out. Either the product is successful and thus your company can invest in the right machine or it isn't and you avoid having a huge debt to clear.

The budget depends on what sort of interest there may be for our product. Right now, we're still in the development phase. We don't even have a working prototype. This is why I'm asking questions now, rather than later when it could be too late. We're trying to do as much research as we possibly can before we have to make another big purchase. We have absolutely no way of gauging what type of volume we're going to be doing. If I had to guess, I'd say "very VERY small". At least in the beginning.

Everything you say keeps pointing me in the direction of getting a local contractor to fab the parts for you. It will try up far less money initially which will allow you to be more nimble when it comes adapting to the market. I'm actually wondering if you have considered having them water jet cut? After they are cut out of a sheet up you can drill the holes yourself. You don't have to have a finished product rather think of them as blanks.

Now, if you want raw numbers in terms of how many pieces we need to make in a given time frame, I'm afraid I can't give you that. But, just as an estimate (this is just an estimate - we have no real way of knowing how much volume we'll be doing), we'd be extremely excited if we were to sell 100 of these things per year. That's probably a gross exaggeration, but it's the best I can do. So, with that number in mind, multiply that by 6 (that's how many of those pieces are in a complete set of pedals) and you've got your total number for one year (again, just an estimate - or better yet, a guess). There are, of course, other little pieces that would need to be cut, but you get the idea.

If you went to a water jet house he will likely have a machine with a certain capacity or sheet size and might even stock full sheets in house being that this is aluminum. You will likely get the best deal by having him cut up an entire sheet for you.

I'm having a bit of a problem imagining why you would need six pieces for one set of pedals.

To go a bit further, this isn't going to be a manufacturing plant. The Sim racing market is very small. We're entering a "hobby" market. We're not going to get rich doing this, but that's not the point. That's not why we got into this. We'd be happy to break even. Oh sure, the point of every business is to make money, but we're primarily focused more on giving the public a viable, more affordable option than what's out there currently (within the high end custom pedal market - again, very small). Is that crazy?

That isn't crazy at all but I'm not sure you have an economical solution here. You really need to address cost of production to see if you have a viable product.

I don't see any negativity here, but you'd be surprised how many naysayers we've encountered over the past year or so.

That is probably because this forum is full of people that have spent a lifetime trying to make things work! Many here have started businesses or have been instrumental in keeping one afloat. My biggest fear right now is that you are headed down the road of buying the quick and dirty solution when there might be better alternatives out there.

So many people have told us we're crazy and we won't succeed. We're doing this because we love it. We're doing this because we want to give back to a community that has given us so much pleasure over the last 15 years. This is our contribution. Will we fail? Who knows. But I think the real failure is not even trying.

Don't let anybody stop you. However keep an open mind as to other ways to solve your problem.

Anyhow, Sorry for the rant. it's a bit late. I'm open to suggestions, but $5000 is it. That's all we've got. I think we've found the right machine for the job, but I'm always willing to take suggestions.

Well I have to disagree, I do not see that machine as a solution to your problems. In fact I see it as a major distraction and an unneeded expense at this point. If your product is successful, that is the time to look into buying a CNC machine. I say machine because it might not be a router, it the long run you will be better off with a real CNC mill with everything that goes with it. If not a mill at least a more robust router and a way to control coolant. Further if many of your other parts are made from sheet stock you might even consider a water jet or even a laser, to be a good investment. It all depends upon your local conditions but once you have the machines you might as well try to get some job shop work too.

Look at it this way, your current business plans might not have a way to pay for a decent CNC machine, but what happens if you alter the plans.

EDIT: Directly from their website - Repeatability to +/-0.002" or better, accuracy to +/-0.005" or better

I have no experience with that set of machines but let's be frank, it just looks skinny. You need a machine that can hold such numbers under load not while scrolling around in free space. My gut feeling is that this isn't the way you want to go.

Don't get me wrong a router type machine might be great for prototyping where the quality of the results aren't a big deal. When it comes time to do shippable parts though where is the coolant going to go on these low end machines? Also realize that end mills will leave radiuses where currently yo have none.

One more thing, contracting work out is a fact of life for all businesses big and small. I work for a largish company that has a couple of "machines shops" and there is a constant need to contract work out. The fact is the shops become specialized in the production of tooling specific to the business. As such there are many things they aren't equipped to do.

[vtx1029]

First off let me back up and say I really like my CRP router. I use it often but for hobby use only and it does a good job at that. The gear rack that I purchased for my router from More gear was hit and miss if you will. My 2Y axis racks are most likely within that .005 but the one I have on my X is really far out there close to a .020 error per foot. My point is with cheaper rack/acme rod you will have some error. Sometimes you get lucky and get a good piece sometimes not. You really never said how big of a machine you want or will need. How big of plates will you be cutting these out of? A smaller router is going to be more rigid and the smaller you make it the better components you can put into your router. If I was to start out saying I'm going to build a router to cut mostly aluminum I would make it no bigger than say with a 2' gantry and maybe 2 or 4' long, Using profile linear rail and C7 ball screws from china. The better components you pick now will help with Accuracy and Repeatability.

I think most people here read your first post about you saying you want to cut 1/8 AL in 1 or 2 passes. That is where I'd be surprised if you would be able to do that with a CRP router. If your ok with 5 to say 7 passes then it should work better for you. I've been cutting a bunch of 2024 T3 sheets and plate with my router because I'm building a experimental airplane. Without a doubt you will either need a Spindle or good router controller like the super PID if using a regular router. I'd suggest that you think of what you can use for a spoil board other than MDF or wood. Because your going to want or need coolant down the road. The mist coolant systems work fairly ok but will still mess up a wood spoil board over time. Plan on rigging up a air blast as well. Single flute bits will be your weapon of choice. Buy a bunch of them at first your going to need them to dial in your feeds and speeds. Ramp in all your cuts don't plunge cut. My suggestion for your holes is to just center drill them and then use a drill press to finish the holes. Routers are not made to take the force of a drill bit and will kill the bearings over time.

You say your G0704 won't work in what direction the X or Y? Have you read some of the conversion threads? I believe most guys are getting at least an inch or 2 more travels and some more with spacer blocks. It would be cheaper, easier, and more precise to cnc your G0704. Or look on Craigslist for an old milling machine I see Bridgport Boss machines pop up fairly regular in the 3-5k range. I would have picked one up long ago if I had the ceiling height

[ger21]

It seems like lately I see far too many posts telling people that they need a very heavy duty machine and lighter duty machines will not work. A lot of this reasoning stems from a lot of beginners with unrealistic expectations, along with members that have much higher standards giving advise.

You can certainly cut aluminum on a CNC Router Parts machine, and you don't need coolant to do it. (But coolant will give a better finish, and prolong tool life) I've seen excellent results cutting aluminum on MDF construction machines.

Accuracy isn't really an issue either. Even the most basic homebuilt machines are capable of much better accuracy or precision than you're looking for.

You have to understand, though, that while many lower end machines can do this, they're not the ideal choice. In a production environment, a router that needs to make 10 or more passes to cut through 1/8" aluminum isn't going to make you money. But it'll certainly be able to make parts that you might not be able to make otherwise.

[tahustvedt]

I have no business acumen, and can't advice on whether it is best to invest in a machine or outsource.

If you have the ability to shear sheets then you can get away with a smaller 60x90cm machine with vacuum, for example, and still be able to cut maybe 20 of those pieces in one session. While the machine is working you can do other things, so it's like an extra worker. Using a router can also reduce material costs, because you may not waste as much material as with manual cutting. However, and this is a big however, it takes quite a lot of experience to get to the stage where you just pop a sheet in and press start and the machine works flawlessly through the job.

[Semus]

Wizard,

Your post is waaay too long to quote, so I'm not even going to attempt it, lol.

Just to answer a couple of your questions, though...

Contracting the parts out was one of our main goals. That is, until we found out how much it was going to cost per piece (even at 1000+). There is a waterjet company near our location (about an hour away) owned by an extremely nice family. They do some fantastic work. Waterjet Cutting Services Water Jet Metal Cutting Service Virginia Waterjet Tile Cutting Services Virginia

Unfortunately, the prices they charge to do each piece would put us over our price point, significantly. We're shooting for a very specific sell price. That may sound absurd, but again, we aren't in this to get rich. They aren't the only game in town, of course, but we've done some shopping around, and nothing came close to their prices. It's really a shame, too. It would have been a great solution.

Bottom line, the price we're ultimately going to charge for these things is at a point right now where we feel we will have an advantage over the closest competitor. Having them cut with a waterjet, would almost double our cost (per pedal set) to make them. That might sound outrageous, but there were other factors involved that I'm not willing to discuss in a random forum. And remember, that one piece you see in the video isn't the only piece that needs to be cut. We ran the numbers over and over and over again until we were blue in the face. We tried everything we could to make a go of doing it with a waterjet. In the end, it just wasn't going to happen.

Short answer = the final price for our product is below $X or we don't sell them. Non-negotiable.

You also asked why it takes 6 of those pieces per pedal set... There's a video on our channel that shows how we put them together, but I'll try and explain it in words, if I can. Each pedal (gas, brake, clutch) has two side plates (those things in the video). There are various pieces and mechanisms in the center of those two pieces needed for structural purposes and other things. Two sides per pedal, three pedals, 6 pieces

I think that's about all I wanted to cover here. If I can think of anything else, I'll post again.

In closing, I'd like to thank you for all of the valuable info you've given me. Trust me, it sunk in. I think that I'll just have to say that I respectfully disagree with you on certain issues, and on others I do agree. Perhaps you're right and it's nothing more than a distraction, which leads to utter failure (I know you didn't imply that). But who knows, perhaps it will all work itself out.

Cheers

[Semus]

You say your G0704 won't work in what direction the X or Y? Have you read some of the conversion threads? I believe most guys are getting at least an inch or 2 more travels and some more with spacer blocks. It would be cheaper, easier, and more precise to cnc your G0704. Or look on Craigslist for an old milling machine I see Bridgport Boss machines pop up fairly regular in the 3-5k range. I would have picked one up long ago if I had the ceiling height

One of the pieces we're cutting is 10x12

I think most people here read your first post about you saying you want to cut 1/8 AL in 1 or 2 passes. That is where I'd be surprised if you would be able to do that with a CRP router. If your ok with 5 to say 7 passes then it should work better for you. I've been cutting a bunch of 2024 T3 sheets and plate with my router because I'm building a experimental airplane. Without a doubt you will either need a Spindle or good router controller like the super PID if using a regular router. I'd suggest that you think of what you can use for a spoil board other than MDF or wood. Because your going to want or need coolant down the road. The mist coolant systems work fairly ok but will still mess up a wood spoil board over time. Plan on rigging up a air blast as well. Single flute bits will be your weapon of choice. Buy a bunch of them at first your going to need them to dial in your feeds and speeds. Ramp in all your cuts don't plunge cut. My suggestion for your holes is to just center drill them and then use a drill press to finish the holes. Routers are not made to take the force of a drill bit and will kill the bearings over time.

Yes, doing the sheets in one or two passes is unrealistic. If it took 5-7 passes, I'd be a happy camper.

Just to give you some context, the sheets we'll be working with are going to be 2'x4' sheets. The machine we are looking at is a 2'x4' machine. Anything bigger and I'd be afraid of the rigidity (as you mentioned). Just out of curiosity, would that size sheet even fit onto a 2'x4' machine? Seems like there would be little wiggle room...

All great advice. I'll look into the super PID. However, doesn't the CRP kit come with something similar with the electronics? I'll look into that.

End mills won't be an issue. We have plenty of those

Great tip about the board. I'll make sure I find a proper solution if I'm going to use coolant.

[gio666]

1/8 in single pass is easy cutting, here is 4x8 machine cutting 1/4 inch depth

Demon - YouTube

[Semus]

1/8 in single pass is easy cutting, here is 4x8 machine cutting 1/4 inch depth

Impressive

[gio666]

Impressive

Smaller Raptor machines will cut same if not faster