[Fish4Fun]

I have been looking into either adding a "print head" to my desktop cnc mill, of just building a 3D printer outright. In my investigations I ran across this:

V-Slot - OpenBuilds Part Store

And I was dumbfounded by how reasonable the pricing seemed. I have not priced aluminum extrusions in several years, maybe ALL aluminum extrusions have become this affordable and I just hadn't noticed? 20mm x 80mm x 1500mm (3/4" x 3" x 60") Black Anodized for $33 or Silver for $30 ?? And these extrusions are designed to be used as linear V-Rails!

Anyway, I thought I would post a link here and see if anyone had any experience with these, or perhaps other "deals" in aluminum extrusions. I should have some time in late January thru early March and I hope to use some of it to at least get a build started, perhaps even completed, and the thought of using aluminum extrusions being an affordable venue really hadn't crossed my mind. (hehe, the price of these extrusions really makes me want to skip the 3D printer upgrade/build and start that 4ftx4ft Plasma cutter I have been dreaming about for the past 10 years!)

Happy New Year!

Fish

[wizard]

The stuff is a nice idea, I'm just not sure how it will work out in practice. The surface of anodized Aluminum is very hard but that is just the surface and that hardness is at best a couple of thousands thick. I'm just not convinced that it is a long term solution. I would love to hear from a long term user though. It is certainly a nice way to get started on a Reprap, especially if you aren't sure about your usage of the finished machine. If you have wear issues you could always buy Biship Wisecravers bolt on rails strips.

As for a plasma table, I'm thinking slag would be a problem. Every time you make a plunge cut you will be blowing back molten metal. This is very likely to stick to the aluminum.

As for the cost, well aluminum isn't cheap be any stretch of the imagination, it is often cheaper to go the steel tube route even if you need the services of a machinist.

I have been looking into either adding a "print head" to my desktop cnc mill, of just building a 3D printer outright. In my investigations I ran across this:

V-Slot - OpenBuilds Part Store

And I was dumbfounded by how reasonable the pricing seemed. I have not priced aluminum extrusions in several years, maybe ALL aluminum extrusions have become this affordable and I just hadn't noticed? 20mm x 80mm x 1500mm (3/4" x 3" x 60") Black Anodized for $33 or Silver for $30 ?? And these extrusions are designed to be used as linear V-Rails!

Anyway, I thought I would post a link here and see if anyone had any experience with these, or perhaps other "deals" in aluminum extrusions. I should have some time in late January thru early March and I hope to use some of it to at least get a build started, perhaps even completed, and the thought of using aluminum extrusions being an affordable venue really hadn't crossed my mind. (hehe, the price of these extrusions really makes me want to skip the 3D printer upgrade/build and start that 4ftx4ft Plasma cutter I have been dreaming about for the past 10 years!)

Happy New Year!

Fish

[Fish4Fun]

Thanks for the response wizard!

I'll think on it, but I will likely give some of that railing (or something similar) a try for some kind of cnc project this Winter (reprap/plasma cutter/lathe..who knows I have time and a bit of money to play with, lol); it just seems like it would be an efficient way to build a decent medium format stage for the money/time investment. I have some really nice HWIN rails and trucks that are going to make a fine cnc project one day, but I am waiting for the 'right' project for them; I need to gain more experience in my builds/designs before I start down THAT path;-) For now I want to experiment, and I am ready to try something NOT based on MDF, but not quite ready to invest the time and effort into steel, but want to move "up" from MDF.

Anyway, when I decide WHAT I am going to build, and get the basic design drawn up I will start a build thread. Maybe I will use the "OpenBuilds V-Slot" just to let others know how it tuns out. I still have a couple of weeks of work ahead of me, so I will spend that time thinking on it....

Again, THANKS for the response!

Fish

[wizard]

The rails are likely to work fine for something light duty like a Reprap or a laser based machine.

I actually got this profile mixed up in my mind with another Kickstarter project that uses a slightly different approach. This might give better long term performance. In either case you need the input of somebody with experience with the material.

Thanks for the response wizard!

I'll think on it, but I will likely give some of that railing (or something similar) a try for some kind of cnc project this Winter (reprap/plasma cutter/lathe..who knows I have time and a bit of money to play with, lol);

Must be nice!

it just seems like it would be an efficient way to build a decent medium format stage for the money/time investment. I have some really nice HWIN rails and trucks that are going to make a fine cnc project one day, but I am waiting for the 'right' project for them; I need to gain more experience in my builds/designs before I start down THAT path;-)

Reprap machines have become a recent interest of mine. I like that much can be accomplished in these builds with salvaged parts and the like. In other words if you try real hard you can get buy without a huge investment.

For now I want to experiment, and I am ready to try something NOT based on MDF, but not quite ready to invest the time and effort into steel, but want to move "up" from MDF.

One idea I've been flipping through my head is turning regular extrusions 45 degrees to run rollers on the corners of the extrusions. I have a pile of salvaged extrusions but little else at the moment.

Anyway, when I decide WHAT I am going to build, and get the basic design drawn up I will start a build thread. Maybe I will use the "OpenBuilds V-Slot" just to let others know how it tuns out.

I'm fairly certain the 3D printer people will be interested. I'm actually puzzled by how cheap he sells the extrusions. It really makes me winder how long the business will survive.

I still have a couple of weeks of work ahead of me, so I will spend that time thinking on it....

Again, THANKS for the response!

Fish

Can't wait.

[PaulRowntree]

One idea I've been flipping through my head is turning regular extrusions 45 degrees to run rollers on the corners of the extrusions. I have a pile of salvaged extrusions but little else at the moment.

I wonder if the extrusion will tend to splay open if there is any significant preload on it. With the beveled edges, you could fit a 0.5"x0.5" cold-rolled steel bar into the extrusion's slot, edge up. If you could secure it well (this would be the hard part) then steel V-rollers could ride on it fairly well,

[Tkamsker]

Hi
I connected and Ramps 1.4 to my cnc machine just instand of my cnc Controller then mounted an budash Nozzle voilà 3d printer
...

Gesendet von meinem SM-N9005 mit Tapatalk

[Fish4Fun]

Well I guess this is going to become my defacto pre-build thread, LOL.

I have spent a bit of time investigating the OpenBuilds V-Rail, and it appears to be comparably priced to 80/20 "surplus" from ebay with the caveat that you can order exactly what you want and not have to spend hours perusing "what's available", and, of course, the fact that all of the extrusions can be used as linear V-Rails has built-in cost-savings. I will say that by the time you are "done" adding the parts up to make a truck, the trucks are close in price to HWIN or other linear bearing trucks:

Basic 4-Wheel Truck             
Eccentric Spacers    $2.00   2     $4.00
Dual V Wheel Kits    $3.85   4    $15.40
VSlot Gantry Plate  $12.00   1    $12.00
                                  $31.40
                
Basic 6-Wheel Truck             
Eccentric Spacers    $2.00   3     $6.00
Dual V Wheel Kits    $3.85   6    $23.10
VSlot Gantry Plate  $12.00   1    $12.00
                                  $41.10

But if the "Gantry Plates" are made from 1/4in x 3in or 4in 6061 Flat Stock, and you work under the assumption that a "single" truck per rail is adequate, the BOM drops about $10/Truck making it a bit more financially attractive and making the total cost per linear rail/support rail ~$22 + $0.282/Inch to $0.564/in (price from 20x20 to 20x80). Assuming a Y-Axis of 20x80x1500mm (59in) and "six wheel trucks", this puts the Y-Axis Rails/Supports @ $62 for the two trucks and $66 for the Rails/Supports for a total of $128. Assuming a single piece of 20x80x1000mm (39in) is used for the X-Axis and a single six wheel truck is used, this adds $32 for the truck and $22 for the Rail/Support for a total of $54 for the X-Axis. The Z-Axis could then be added using a single piece of 20x80x500mm (19in) and a 4-wheel truck for $22 + $11 = $33. So the total price of the Rails/Supports/Trucks is @ $215 for a travel area of ~49in x 32in x 12in. The various "Brackets", "Plates" and "Tee-Nuts" are reasonably enough priced that unless the budget is really tight you are likely just as well-off buying them as making them. The M5 Cap screws he sells are a bit pricey @ ~$5/25pcs, compared to similar screws available from US suppliers on ebay for ~$6/100pcs, but there may be something "special" about his screws that justify the cost difference. So, let's assume when we get done adding all of the various screws, t-nuts, brackets and plates we are another $100 into the project, and we still need Bracing between the Y-Axis, some type of "elevation" scheme, supports for a table or spoil board, motor mounts, drive mechanisms for each axis and some other odds and ends to finish things up. How these things are achieved will have a fairly large impact on the total price of the system (not to mention what motors and electronics will add, lol!), but the "bare essentials" of this medium format router build are still well below $400.

THIS IS NOT A BUILD THREAD....yet, lol. I am just "fleshing out the idea" of a medium format Router build using the OpenBuilds V-Slot extrusions to see how the costs might go. It looks to me like an initial budget of $800 for the mechanical portion of the stage including drive mechanisms, motor mounts etc, etc (BUT NOT Motors or Electronics) might be a reasonable starting place. What I DO NOT KNOW is ANYTHING about working with these or any other aluminum extrusions. I am ASSUMING that a 20mm x 80mm profile is capable of spanning 1500mm AND supporting the X-Axis and Router; I also assume it will need to be "supported" to some degree, but I have not even begun to consider "how" or "how much".

What I would love is a bit of feed-back from folks who have used extrusions on their advantages and pitfalls. Off-the-Cuff thoughts on both the "basic budget" and the "extended budget". General advice about starting down the extrusion path vs other approaches for a similar sized work area.

I am not 100% decided on a medium-format router for my Winter Project, but I am obviously leaning toward it. I have several projects I would love to do that petty much require a router this size, but the projects have been on my "to-do list" for several years (and could stay there for several more, lol) so a medium format router is not "a must do now" project, but more of "the loudest in the crowd", hehe. I am also FASCINATED with the notion of a 3d printer, so it won't take a lot to push me that direction instead of this, hehe.

One other venue, I am looking at using GT2 belts to move the gantry and the X-Axis. I have ZERO experience with belts and belt drives, but they seem to be fairly common-place. I have looked at Rack & Pinion drives (especially for the long Y-Axis), but that adds a lot of expense and I am uncertain if the expense is justifiable. In both cases it would appear that an absolute accuracy of ~0.005in is about all one can hope for. While repeatability might be "good" with uSteps, steppers I have seen only claim a full step accuracy of ~5%-10% suggesting that while "uSteps" are "repeatable" they are somewhat less than "determinate". So, with GT2 having a 2mm Pitch, a 1.8 degree stepper (200 steps/Rev) with a 20T pinion would move the axis 20 * 2mm per Revolution ==> 40mm/Rev = 1.5748in/Rev. This resolves to 40mm/200steps = .2mm/Step or 0.007874in/Step. On the bright side, assuming 600RPM the travel would be 600 * 40mm/Rev = 24000mm/min or 944.88in/min! Realistically I wold love to see the feed cut in half and the accuracy increased by 8, but I can't really work that one out, lol. I am assuming I will want dual steppers/pinions/belts on the Y-Axis/Gantry, but that a single stepper on the X-Axis will be sufficient? (Lead screw on the Z-Axis?) I also assume that using a belt or gear reduction to drive the primary belt adds as many problems as it might solve? (A 3:1 reduction might in theory get absolute accuracy close to 0.002in while still allowing 300+ipm travel...but then there is additional backlash etc, like I said, I assume it is not common because it isn't really viable). Of course there are always servos.....(hehe, a 6000rpm servo with a 600ppr encoder running in quadrature resolves to 2400 counts/rev and with a 5:1 gear reduction....and the same 20T pinion.... 2mm * 20T = 40mm/(2400ppr * 5 rev/rev) = 0.0033mm/Pulse = 0.0001312in/pulse and @ a whopping 48000mm/min or 1890ipm really? 31.5 inches per second?!? LMFAO, right, that's what I need, hehe).

Ok, I am getting silly....but I really would appreciate any thoughts on the medium format router outlined above.

Fish

[PaulRowntree]

Many folks use belts, but remember that moving a gantry at a good speed (in the end, almost everyone wants more speed) means that the moving pieces carry a lot of momentum, and this must be considered when trying to change directions. With belts, acceleration (+ and -) can cause bounces and overshoots, like a rubber band. The fix would be to reduce the acceleration of the machine, but then you don't get to high speeds in short distances. I went for chain drives, thinking they would be stiff belts. They are, but the surface finish shows cogging because the chains can't move perfectly smoothly over the sprockets.

Life is full of compromises.

[nlancaster]

The open vslot it going ot be OK for a light duty cncrouter. I am working such a design right now and all hardware including steppers and drives comes to less then $700 for 30x30x4.5inch work area. Going upto 50x50x4.5 would only raise the price to about $725 or so. just need a few longer extrusions and some longer belts.

Light duty means no deep cuts with a 1/4in bit. but you probably will be able to do any wood or plastic you can think of. Similar machines like the Shapeoko have done light cutting in aluminum so what I am designs should be able to do that also.

[nlancaster]

[Fish4Fun]

nLancaster,

I had watched several of the videos, but I hadn't seen the "Ox" builds. This is very close to what I am looking at doing with one fairly major difference....I am thinking of designing the machine to attach to a large work bench (5ft x 8ft) in such a way that a full 4ft x 8ft piece of plywood can "slide under" the the gantry and parts can be cut from it. Obviously I would also be able to attach a spoil board for working with smaller pieces of stock, but having the ability to "cut parts from a full sheet" would be a really cool option. I don't have it all worked out yet; it seems every time I watch a build I see new ways of doing things and find more things to consider. Anyway, THANKS for the video link! If you have a build thread, please post a link!

Paul,

While I would like a bit more speed than I have on my small format router (~30ipm), I really can't see needing anywhere close to 900ipm, LOL. As much time as it takes me to draw up the things I want to cut, I really can't see worrying a whole lot about how long it takes the machine to cut it, hehe. I would love to find a linear motion system capable of 200-300ipm on the longer runs with absolute accuracy in the +/-0.001" range, but I am content with the notion of +/- 0.005, and really don't think I will ever task the machine @ 900+ipm for anything other than a "giggle". As far as Accel/Deccel, I use the K-Flop controllers, and once I learn what the belts can take I will back off of that a bit and "lock them in". The K-Flops actually have a "jerk" parameter as well which simply put is the rate of change of acceleration which, when "tweaked" gives really smooth velocity vectoring. I will likely spend a whole day calculating the mass of the gantry and do all of the calculations on stepper torque etc, then I will spend another day disregarding all of that and doing "real world testing", LOL. But THANKS for the heads up, hehe, I wasn't really thinking the machine would move that large a gantry at 900ipm w/o something going awry.

I am getting closer to deciding a medium format router will be this Winter's project. While the allure of 3D printing is still strong, the thought of having a medium format router is really starting to excite me! Watching the various Open Builds videos has really got me wanting to give their products a try! I will likely start a build thread in the next few weeks:-)

Fish

[wizard]

nLancaster,

I had watched several of the videos, but I hadn't seen the "Ox" builds. This is very close to what I am looking at doing with one fairly major difference....I am thinking of designing the machine to attach to a large work bench (5ft x 8ft) in such a way that a full 4ft x 8ft piece of plywood can "slide under" the the gantry and parts can be cut from it.

This large size is send up a few red flags. The primary red flag being the stiffness of the Openbuilds system for such a large router. Open builds is an interesting system but I'm not convinced it will handle such a large machine.

Obviously I would also be able to attach a spoil board for working with smaller pieces of stock, but having the ability to "cut parts from a full sheet" would be a really cool option. I don't have it all worked out yet; it seems every time I watch a build I see new ways of doing things and find more things to consider.

Yeah many ways to skin a cat here. The thing that bothers me in this regard is that in doing sheet goods people usually want good performance while actually cutting that material. Having to baby a machine to cut sheet goods may not be the most rewarding experience on can have.

Anyway, THANKS for the video link! If you have a build thread, please post a link!

Paul,

While I would like a bit more speed than I have on my small format router (~30ipm), I really can't see needing anywhere close to 900ipm, LOL.

You will want to be able to drive the router relatively fast simply to get sheet good works done in a timely manner. People focus a lot on rapids but taking all day to cut up a 4x8 sheet is no fun and done right most of your time should be spent cutting.

As much time as it takes me to draw up the things I want to cut, I really can't see worrying a whole lot about how long it takes the machine to cut it, hehe.

You say that now. I suspect your perspective will change once you have to cut more than one piece of plywood (or whatever) with the same part being produced.

I would love to find a linear motion system capable of 200-300ipm on the longer runs with absolute accuracy in the +/-0.001" range, but I am content with the notion of +/- 0.005,

If you get +- 0.005" over the full operating range of a 4x8 router built with Openbuilds I'd have to say you are doing awfully good. I'd be very surprised though, that would be very good results for any low cost moving gantry design in my mind.

and really don't think I will ever task the machine @ 900+ipm for anything other than a "giggle". As far as Accel/Deccel, I use the K-Flop controllers, and once I learn what the belts can take I will back off of that a bit and "lock them in". The K-Flops actually have a "jerk" parameter as well which simply put is the rate of change of acceleration which, when "tweaked" gives really smooth velocity vectoring. I will likely spend a whole day calculating the mass of the gantry and do all of the calculations on stepper torque etc, then I will spend another day disregarding all of that and doing "real world testing", LOL. But THANKS for the heads up, hehe, I wasn't really thinking the machine would move that large a gantry at 900ipm w/o something going awry.

Don't forget safety either. Really fast rapids can be a problem on a machine not protected via guarding or an enclosure.

I am getting closer to deciding a medium format router will be this Winter's project. While the allure of 3D printing is still strong, the thought of having a medium format router is really starting to excite me! Watching the various Open Builds videos has really got me wanting to give their products a try! I will likely start a build thread in the next few weeks:-)

Fish

Frankly I'd really do hope you follow through with the build if only to give us some constructive feedback on the Openbuilds hardware. It is a new concept and I like new concepts but sometimes new ideas don't work out well.


A side note. If you go the timing belt route go with wider belts for reduced stretch and other issues. More importantly design your saddles and drives such that the belts remain stationary and lay upon the frame. This will help to dampen the guitar string effect. Due to the size of a 4x8 machine you need to think real hard about how those belts are used. In my option if you grab a hand book and select a belt base on the torque requirements you might mis the opportunity to build the type of drive you need.

[Fish4Fun]

Wizzard,

THANKS for all of the feedback! Just to be clear, the machine I am thinking about would NOT be 4x8, but rather ~52" x ~30". The cutting of a 4x8 sheet would be accomplished by sliding the the 4' width of the plywood "into" the router and cutting parts < 30" x 48" at a time. A lot of the incentive here has to do with me being 50 years old and my current work area being up three flights of stairs. I am not overly concerned about speedy cuts simply because it takes me a week to mentally prepare myself to carry even a couple of full sheets up the stairs, lol. If everything goes right, within 2 years I will have a "ground floor" shop where I can back a truck in and unload a pallet w/o expending much effort, perhaps then things will be a bit different. But even then, I am a hobbyist, I have NO INTENTION of turning my CNC hobby into any sort of fabrication business. I am well versed in table saws, radial arm saws, circular saws, jig saws etc, and it is hard to imagine a faster/simpler way of dissecting a 4x8 sheet than a circular saw and a fence, and then using a table saw for smaller, higher precision cuts. So, at the end of the day, sliding a 4x8 sheet under the proposed router would likely just be for the "convenience" of cutting various much smaller parts from it over time (perhaps a month, maybe more). I know to most that sounds "crazy", but it is likely how I would use it most often.

A side note. If you go the timing belt route go with wider belts for reduced stretch and other issues. More importantly design your saddles and drives such that the belts remain stationary and lay upon the frame. This will help to dampen the guitar string effect. Due to the size of a 4x8 machine you need to think real hard about how those belts are used. In my option if you grab a hand book and select a belt base on the torque requirements you might mis the opportunity to build the type of drive you need.

I AM ALL EARS! I have ZERO experience with belts, though I had planned on using "fixed belts". I ill say that I have been more than a little concerned that a 6-7mm wide belt was a bit on the small side, but the GT2 belts seem to be a very popular choice....If you have any recommendations by all means.....

While I am leaning strongly toward belts for simplicity/cost/speed, I have far more experience with lead screws. Obviously a lead screw on a 50" travel would require a rotating nut design or a massive lead screw and would still be very slow comparatively (well unless I went with a high-end ball screw, and I think that might make even me flinch a bit at "check out", lol), but I haven't 100% ruled lead screws out yet.

If you get +- 0.005" over the full operating range of a 4x8 router built with Openbuilds I'd have to say you are doing awfully good. I'd be very surprised though, that would be very good results for any low cost moving gantry design in my mind.

Yes, +/- 0.005" is likely the "best" possible outcome using belts and does NOT take other build considerations into account, that is simply the best "opening" restriction imposed by the GT2 belt drive.

Frankly I'd really do hope you follow through with the build if only to give us some constructive feedback on the Openbuilds hardware. It is a new concept and I like new concepts but sometimes new ideas don't work out well.

Yep, I am now about 99.9% sold on the project. I have to go out of town this coming weekend for a big trade show, and once that is done my "play time" begins. I will be contacting the folks @ OpenBuilds, firming up my plans and ordering some extrusions/fasteners/plates/brackets. I wish I had time to draw everything up and get the materials ordered before I leave, but I really have to focus on my trade show this week, and there is no sense to just ordering a bunch of stuff randomly....or maybe I should order the extrusions/fasteners/plates/brackets I "know" I will need and then plan on doing a "fill-in" order or two, hehe, I am getting excited like a kid @ Christmas :-)

Thanks EVERYONE for all the suggestions! I will post more as I firm things up.

Fish

[Fish4Fun]

Soooo, I am back from "my trip" and I have spent some time thinking on the Open Build's V-Rail system and I am doing my best to get started down the path....First little "bump" (and this is really more of a nuisance than a "problem"), is the Open Builds web site software needs some tweaking, lol. The software won't let you "check out" if the quantity ordered is below the "quantity on hand", and I do understand this, but here is where it gets a bit tricky, lol: it doesn't tell you how many ARE on hand. The entire system is built around the notion that the extrusions can be used as "rails", and this hinges (pun) on a part called an "eccentric spacer" which allows you to tighten & pre-load the "wheels" used to build the linear slides. The system requires one "eccentric spacer" for every pair of wheels, and w/o them you simply have 80/20 with some fancy chamefers. Any way, I need 15 "eccentric spacers" to get started....I don't know how many they have on hand, but the number isn't 15, 14, 13, 12, 11 or Ten, LMFAO, because I have tried each of those quantities and pressed the "continue to check out" button only to get kicked back to the cart page with a nasty little red warning telling me I need to change my order quantity to some quantity equal to or less than the quantity available.....When I got down to ten, I decided to try things a different way.....

Email to Open Builds:

........So we are going to try this "the old fashion way".  
Below is a list of what I want, you give me a call and 
tell me what you have and I will give you my credit card 
and you can charge me for what I want and send me 
what you have now, and then you can send me the 
other items when you get them.

VSlot 20 x 80 x 1500 	$30.00	4		$120.00
Vslot 20 x 80 x 1000	$22.00	2		$44.00
VSlot 20 x 60 x 1000	$15.50	4		$62.00
VSlot 20 x 20 x 1500	$15.00	2		$30.00
				$0.00
Single "L" Brackets 	$1.00	18		$18.00
Double "L" Brackets	$1.25	12		$15.00
Triple "L" Brackets	$1.50	8		$12.00
Inside Hidden Corner Bracket	$1.80	12		$21.60
90 degree Angle Corners (Braces)	$2.75	4		$11.00
Cast 90 degree Angle Corners (Braces)	$1.50	4		$6.00
3-WAY CUBE CORNER	$3.25	4		$13.00
				
2-Hole Strip Plate	$1.95	8		$15.60
3-Hole Strip Plate	$2.05	4		$8.20
5-Hole "T" Plate	$4.65	4		$18.60
 	 	 		$0.00
5-Hole 90 degree Plate	$4.80	1		$4.80
7-Hole Cross Joining Plate	$5.95	1		$5.95
VSlot Gantry Plate	$12.00	1		$12.00
Motor Mount Plate	$6.95	1		$6.95
Idler Pulley Plate	$6.95	1		$6.95
Limit Switch Plate	$2.00	1		$2.00
V-Slot Actuator End Mount	$9.95	1		$9.95
Threaded Rod Plate	$6.95	1		$6.95
Spacer Block	$3.95	4		$15.80
				
25 Count Tee Nuts	$4.50	4		$18.00
M5 x 8mm Screws 25ct	$4.50	1		$4.50
M5 x 10mm Screws 25ct	$4.50	1		$4.50
				
Slot Washer	$0.20	25		$5.00
Precision Shim	$0.25	25		$6.25
20mm Spacer	$0.45	30		$13.50
1/8in Spacer	$0.30	20		$6.00
1/4in Spacer	$0.30	20		$6.00
1.5in Spacers	$0.70	20		$14.00
				
Eccentric Spacers	$2.00	15		$30.00
Dual V Wheel Kits	$3.95	24		$94.80
GT2 Timing Belt Pulley 20 Tooth	$5.00	3		$15.00
Belt Crimp Clamp	$0.60	6		$3.60
				
				
				$687.50

Even a casual observer will note that I ordered "One" of a lot of things and in general not "enough of any thing" to complete a medium format router build. After emailing Mark @ Open Builds I decided I what really wanted to do is "Play" with the Open Builds extrusions before I finalized my design. He said he frequently designs something and then when he is actually "building it" he thinks of other ways of doing it that make more sense than the way he designed it. This follows along with EXACTLY what happens to me all too frequently, so I thought I would basically order at least one of everything I thought I might use. When it all gets here I will "play with it" in a few simple "mock builds" to get a feel for how the system goes together. As I have never even worked with 80/20, this will ALL be new to me, and trying to come up with an exact BOM is likely to end in a ton of "small rush orders" and the associate delays, so I have decided to test the Open Builds venue with an "Open Mind" and enough pieces parts on hand to "get me started". I can fabricate or source just about everything he sells (except the "V-Rail"), so if I have one on hand and it seems like "the right part" I can either order enough to complete the final build, or fabricate them if that seems cheaper/easier.

It is important to remember that my ultimate goal was "a CNC project", not necessarily a medium format router for a dedicated purpose. While I fully intend to build and document a medium format router build using the Open Build's products, I am going to start by "playing" with the open builds extrusions/fittings....Well, that is IF Mark and I can work out that vagaries of ordering/paying/shipping/receiving, LMAO (and I do feel confident that we will achieve all of those, hehe).

I only ordered a few of his "low profile screws". I know this is nit-picky, but $4.50/25 ($0.18 each) for screws seemed like a lot to me, so I ordered some of these: Socket Cap Screw 1 9 Steel Blk THRD M5X 80mm Drive 3mm 197" 10mm | eBay from E-Bay. If there is truly something "special" about his screws, and my "Ebay deal screws" don't work out then I will just add them to the 10,000 other screws I have on hand and order more of Mark's "Special Screws", LOL. Honestly I can't see why a 12x24 or perhaps even a 1/4x20 wouldn't work, but he suggests M5 x 0.8 , so I have some M5 x 0.8 Taps ordered (I have a couple on hand, but they are hard to find locally and I have all ideas I will be tapping more than a few holes; I want to make sure I am not held up over a silly broken tap.)

I also opted to order GT2 belt from ebay ( 10meters 10M GT2 Belt Rostock RepRap Prusa Mendel 3D Printing | eBay ). Perhaps a mistake, I really don't know if there are different "grades" of GT2 belting, or for that matter much at all about GT2 Belting. I am worried that 6mm width may prove too narrow for my router build, but that worry is not based on any engineering math or experience, just the general misgivings associate with something "new".

Soooo, I guess I am going to use this thread as my "build thread", and it is just about time to "start the build" (well, assuming the a fore mentioned ordering problems are resolved, hehe). Counter-intuitively I have decided the first thing I am going to try with the V-Rail is a simple "leveling" grinder/sander. I plan to build a long (as close to 1500mm as I can get on a 1500mm rail, lol) rigid "Y" axis with a rigid, short travel X-Axis (< 4" Travel) and a fairly high precision Z axis that will hold an angle grinder. The purpose of the build (beyond gaining some experience with the V-Rail, Belt Drive, etc) will be to "level" some aluminum AND/OR steel tubing I am thinking about using for supports in my Router Build. Probably a silly exercise, and I may not actually "use it", but hopefully assembling the rails/trucks and mounting the GT2 belt will give me some insights/experience with extrusions and belt drives.

Not much else to report until stuff gets here, lol.

Fish

[Fish4Fun]

WOW :-( So in theory I have ordered a bunch of Open Build's stuff and am here to report on my initial thoughts, in REALITY things are not moving that quickly. It would appear actually BUYING something from Open Builds is quite complicated. I have emailed them numerous times asking them to simply call me with a total, or even e-mail me a total with a pay-pal request, or even just let me know which items on my order I needed to "cut" so that my order would process on line....their response?

1/15/14
Thank you for the email. Please let us look into this and get back to you.

1/18/14
Thank you for your email. We received your parts list and were able to secure the 15 eccentric spacers you requested. We are checking the warehouse to see if we can fulfill the rest of your order. It’s been a busy week as we just added a couple new distributors (hence the out of stock items that you listed below). We try to have a little extra stock on each part so let us look into this and get back to you.

So, here we are over a week into attempting to place an order, and best I can tell not much closer than when we started. I do understand "out of stock" and "growing pains", but I am more than a little confused what they are "looking into". What I have repeatedly suggested was that they simply bill me for everything on my order, let me pay them, and then they can ship what they have on hand NOW, and ship me the rest as it becomes available. I even offered to pay for the multiple shipping costs, but we are still stuck in the "do loop" of "looking into it".

I am still optimistic about the Open Builds Extrusions, but it would be a lie to say I am not disappointed in the ordering process. Hopefully all of this will get cleared up in the next day or two and I will have something more positive to report.

Fish

[wizard]

Fish;

You are much to nice, I would have given up on them long ago.

[tjb1]

WOW :-( So in theory I have ordered a bunch of Open Build's stuff and am here to report on my initial thoughts, in REALITY things are not moving that quickly. It would appear actually BUYING something from Open Builds is quite complicated. I have emailed them numerous times asking them to simply call me with a total, or even e-mail me a total with a pay-pal request, or even just let me know which items on my order I needed to "cut" so that my order would process on line....their response?



So, here we are over a week into attempting to place an order, and best I can tell not much closer than when we started. I do understand "out of stock" and "growing pains", but I am more than a little confused what they are "looking into". What I have repeatedly suggested was that they simply bill me for everything on my order, let me pay them, and then they can ship what they have on hand NOW, and ship me the rest as it becomes available. I even offered to pay for the multiple shipping costs, but we are still stuck in the "do loop" of "looking into it".

I am still optimistic about the Open Builds Extrusions, but it would be a lie to say I am not disappointed in the ordering process. Hopefully all of this will get cleared up in the next day or two and I will have something more positive to report.

Fish

I ordered from them 2 weeks ago with no issues, things that are out of stock are not allowed to be ordered...not sure how that is difficult to understand. Just order it when it shows it is in stock and you would already have the rest of your order by now. I only ordered 1 stick of the extrusion (a bunch of wheels and other stuff) at the time because my design is still maturing but I noticed it is now out of stock, I will place the order when it is in stock, including all the other items aren't out of stock...

[Fish4Fun]

tjb1,

YES, It appears I have made this REALLY DIFFICULT. Obviously I AM AN IDIOT. I went about buying completely wrong. My bad. Don't worry, it still isn't working out:-)

YES, I SHOULD HAVE COMPLIED with the way they do things, except.....this was suppose to be a POSITIVE review. oops, I dropped the Fing ball. I tried to order what I needed to give them a POSITIVE REVIEW. Falling up a mountain is a lot easier than getting me riled up. I just wanted to buy their product and give it an honest review. Honestly this was not suppose to be difficult. Obviously I messed up. I will stop now. I am done. I HAD NO PROBLEM with out of stock. I wanted to PAY THEM for the out of stock items and have them ship them to me as they became available, AND PAY the additional shipping. We are now over two weeks into them NOT responding with anything more than "we will look into this and get back to you". If that is your idea of customer service, I would really like you to consider fishing as a hobby; I think I might have some "customer service" that will amaze you.

To All:

I REALLY want this to work out. I Love their concept, and if a build with their product goes well I WANT to give them full props for their product, but at this point I want to say, "So far they are absolutely HORRENDOUS to deal with." I am VERY glad tjb1 has had a "good experience", I truly HOPE that it is my silly approach to BUYING that has made this so difficult.

I guess so far this review is not going too well for OpenBuilds, that's a shame :-( It was a VERY EASY opportunity. @ this point I REALLY WISH I had decided to build a 3D printer.


Fish

[Fish4Fun]

And this pretty much wraps up this thread.....this was my last email to OpenBuilds.com (mark carew) , and @ this point I guess I am NOT going to have a "Spring 2014" project :-( (ok, bit bitter here, but absolutely 100% my fault, I NEVER should have counted on a "new" company. :-( AND I should never have tried to circumvent "iron-clad sales tracts". Obviously if I had complied with the system this would have all worked out.

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/diy_cn...ml#post1423038

You should read this thread from the beginning to gain a grasp on how emotions change wrt interaction. I have been in retail for over 3 decades, I am 100% certain your eye is on a different prize, but you area a fledgeling company, and you NEVER want this kind of fubar coming from a really promising opportunity. I was willing to throw AT LEAST $800 at giving you a +1. Instead you have turned this into something ugly, and for the life of me I do not understand why. You have my REAL NAME, REAL ADDRESS, REAL PHONE NUMBER, and we are over two weeks into you NOT using any of them to simply explain to me WHY ordering from you is difficult. I have given you AMPLE opportunity to make any sort of effort....nada from you.

So, here we are. I truly wish you the best. By all accounts you have a unique and interesting product line. I will NEVER say anything negative about your products unless I personally find fault in them, however, you have chosen to make doing business with you absolutely untenable; I have repeatedly told you I am MORE THAN HAPPY to pay you in advance for products you do not have on hand, and PAY YOU ADDITIONALLY for shipping them as they become available, and your response has been "we will look into this and get back to you.....". Well you failed. I am sorry for any efforts you have gone to; however, at this juncture my time window has closed. I will now wait for someone else to review your products; perhaps I will attempt to comply with your sales system at a future date; I do think the idea is good, but for now, I am done.

With Warm Regards,

xxxxxxx

I do have an exciting uController project that home brewers might get excited over, LOL :-) (And some new encoders to install on my DeskTop CNC router :-) ) So ALL is good.

Fish

[tjb1]

tjb1,

YES, It appears I have made this REALLY DIFFICULT. Obviously I AM AN IDIOT. I went about buying completely wrong. My bad. Don't worry, it still isn't working out:-)

YES, I SHOULD HAVE COMPLIED with the way they do things, except.....this was suppose to be a POSITIVE review. oops, I dropped the Fing ball. I tried to order what I needed to give them a POSITIVE REVIEW. Falling up a mountain is a lot easier than getting me riled up. I just wanted to buy their product and give it an honest review. Honestly this was not suppose to be difficult. Obviously I messed up. I will stop now. I am done. I HAD NO PROBLEM with out of stock. I wanted to PAY THEM for the out of stock items and have them ship them to me as they became available, AND PAY the additional shipping. We are now over two weeks into them NOT responding with anything more than "we will look into this and get back to you". If that is your idea of customer service, I would really like you to consider fishing as a hobby; I think I might have some "customer service" that will amaze you.

To All:

I REALLY want this to work out. I Love their concept, and if a build with their product goes well I WANT to give them full props for their product, but at this point I want to say, "So far they are absolutely HORRENDOUS to deal with." I am VERY glad tjb1 has had a "good experience", I truly HOPE that it is my silly approach to BUYING that has made this so difficult.

I guess so far this review is not going too well for OpenBuilds, that's a shame :-( It was a VERY EASY opportunity. @ this point I REALLY WISH I had decided to build a 3D printer.


Fish

They have out of stock limits for a reason, many companies fail because they oversell. Why even have out of stock limits if they let you buy it even when they don't have it? Then everyone would be doing it and then they are overselling and then everyone is mad because then they really have no stock. Just look at Kickstarter, this is the main reason that campaigns fail because they asked for $10k and suddendly they have $1mil of orders that they have to get out. Then you have people like you who bought it when they were way over the limit and expect them to ship or respond instantly.

Bottom line, the item is out of stock. They don't sell items that they don't have. Don't get mad at them because they won't accomdate your stupid request when you can simply go purchase again when it's in stock. It's not like the stuff goes out of stock in 10 minutes of being added. Yes they are slow to answer mail but as far as I know, there is only 2 of them, maybe a few more running this operation.

You want stuff now, go buy it from 80/20, Misumi or T-slots...they all offer linear motion solutions for extrusion and have the resources to handle large quantities.


I'll be like you...


TO EVERYONE ELSE - Don't let this view of a company because he has a special request influence your view of them. If you buy IN STOCK items and not make stupid requests over email to pre-purchase OUT OF STOCK items, they get the order out very quickly with very quick shipping.