[a67429]

So I went down an stared at the machine for a while and decided to go ahead and change out the drives, servos and encoders for something along the lines of the 1100oz/in kit from cnc4pc.

That being said, I'm going to sell off as much of this GN6 / 6M-B control as possible to offset the cost, as well as the servos, encoders and drives. If anyone is interested in anything speak up. Since the machine will end up under PC control, I'm also gonna sell the interface and mount a touch screen in its place.

I plan on keeping the main control electronics enclosure, but the large one in back holding then power supplies and velocity drives will go.

I am located in Morro Bay, Can which sits almost exactly between San Fransisco and Los Angeles. I will ship / all of it for actual cost, or just come over and unbolt / unplug anything you need.

[a67429]

A little more digging and some help from Al_The_Man and I have learned that my encoders are pretty much just standard differential encoders which should work fine with an aftermarket drive. This is great news as it means I won't have to deal with replacing my servos or encoders.

The only servo on my mill that still has its dataplate is the Z axis, which is phisically smaller than the other two, and is rated at 56v. Is it safe to assume the X and Y motors are also 56v? Being brushed DC servos, I know they can't be over driven quite like a brushless or stepper motor, so should I should be looking for a power supply thats as close to 56v as possible or? It seems 50, 60, and 72 volt supplies are readily available, but not so much for 56v. I'm pretty sure 60 would be fine because of loss to the driver and cables, but what about 72?

Then comes wattage, how much power should I be looking for? 1000 watts...1500?

Transformers are pretty 'stupid' devices, in that they don't much know or care what voltage you put into them so long as we don't try and take too much from them. Voltage goes in either end and a proportional amount comes out the other side. I haven't pulled my existing ones out of their cabinet yet, well because I'm a little afraid of having to put it back if I need to. Does anyone happen to know if they may be able to be re-used with 110/220v input instead of the three phase they used to run on?

[Al_The_Man]

The one shown is 2000 rpm at 56vdc, if you are not sure of any other motor it could be ran off of a 12v automotive battery and check the rpm, it would be proportional to the maximum rpm, IOW if rated at 56v/2000, 12v would result in ~430rpm.
You would need at least a 1.5Kva power supply for all three motors.
Any DC supply with this capacity would work, at least 70vdc, 72vdc would be fine.
Al.

[a67429]

The one shown is 2000 rpm at 56vdc, if you are not sure of any other motor it could be ran off of a 12v automotive battery and check the rpm, it would be proportional to the maximum rpm, IOW if rated at 56v/2000, 12v would result in ~430rpm.
You would need at least a 1.5Kva power supply for all three motors.
Any DC supply with this capacity would work, at least 70vdc, 72vdc would be fine.
Al.

I don't have any kind of tachometer to measure RPM. So I'm thinking I could power the drive and measure how far the table moves in say 10 seconds. So it work out as 430 * screw pitch (0.2) / 6 = distance. This should give me 14.33 inches in 10 seconds. If its different then I could just work backwards through the math to provide its voltage rating.

Accuracy here isnt too critical as a 10% jump in the motors voltage rating should be readily apparent. Having to move the table doesn't quite constitute no load RPM though, so slightly lower numbers are expected. I imagine this should still get me pretty close though.

The only issue is that I am going to have to assume its also a 2000rpm motor. Something tells me they didn't really mix up motor specs. The larger motors are probably just more powerful.

[Al_The_Man]

The early (black cap) DC motors used by Fanuc were made by Gettys, later Fanuc cloned them and put the Fanuc label on, identified with a Yellow cap.
There should be a label on all the motors?
Al.

[a67429]

The early (black cap) DC motors used by Fanuc were made by Gettys, later Fanuc cloned them and put the Fanuc label on, identified with a Yellow cap.
There should be a label on all the motors?
Al.

While the X and Y motors look identical to the Z motor aside from being about 2 inches longer, they have no markings or stickers on them anywhere other than on the encoder. I think tonight I am going to pull the power supplies from the cabinet, hopefully they will shed some light on things. Unfortunately I cant read their data plates with them installed. Maybe just run them all off a 1500 watt 72v supply and call it good?

[a67429]

So I pulled the control cabinet off the machine and got the servo power supplies out today with the hopes of being able to reuse them. Unfortunately I doubt they will work because they are three phase. While I could power two of the three coils in parallel, that means that I'll also only get 2/3 of the current.



These things are pretty darn big though. Anyone know the math to figure out what I can safely pull from these things, and if it'll be enough to continue to drive these servos. Even though the new drivers arent 3phase, the servo is still DC so the total amount of current stays the same, minus whatever is lost to the driver. The smaller one of the two powers only the Z axis only, and is marked 60v on the output legs. Its data plate says its 1.2kva The larger one powered X and Y, outputs 90v and is rated for 2.3kva.

So it looks like the servo voltage issue has been cleared up some. So given that the Z was powered at 60v and X and Y were running at 90v, what is recommended for the new drives? Run them all at 72, or get a second power supply for X and Y at what....110v or so?

[a67429]

Ok, so after a bunch of poking around the net I realized they have calculators for this kind of thing. But as I suspected the power supplies aren't gonna cut it. The smaller one at 2/3 of its 1.1Kva and 60v produces 7a or 420 watts, and the larger at 2/3 of its 2.5kva at 90v produces 10.66a or 913 watts.

A total of 1330 watts feels like I would be at the lower limit of what would be useable. The more I read about how to do this the more I found myself reading a lot of really smart people debate technicalities that are way over my head about if and how it would be possible to use 2 of the three coils. I get the impression that it 'may' be possible, but really isn't really recommended. So I'm gonna avoid the whole mess and just use a couple of toroids.

Since X and Y were powered at 50% higher voltage than Z, I'll likely end up using two power supplies so I can run those motors at a higher voltage and squeeze a little more performance out of them.

Right now it looks like I'm gonna go with a DG3S driver for Z, and run it at 72v, and a pair of DG4S's for X and Y at 110v. I'm thinking 8a (576 watts) should be enough for Z, and then ~20a or so for X and Y. CNC4PC sells just about about everything I'm gonna need, but they don't carry power supplies over 72v. Any recommendations about which one / where to find it?

[Al_The_Man]

Those transformers appear from the pic to around 1.5- 2Kva?
it looks like they can handle those motors?
Especially if you construct a DC supply in order to use PWM drives?
Lower voltage than the motor rated means you would not get Max. rpm.
Also remember that the DC will be 1.414 x the AC output of the TXFMR.
You could set up two primaries for a 1 ph TXFMR?
I would guess they were delta/star connected?
Al.

[a67429]

Those transformers appear from the pic to around 1.5- 2Kva?
it looks like they can handle those motors?
Especially if you construct a DC supply in order to use PWM drives?
Lower voltage than the motor rated means you would not get Max. rpm.
Also remember that the DC will be 1.414 x the AC output of the TXFMR.
You could set up two primaries for a 1 ph TXFMR?
I would guess they were delta/star connected?
Al.

They are pretty darn big. A 1.414 mulitplier would put the output at nearly 1900 watts which I'd certainly be comfortable with. I find myself getting lost in theories about how to do it, and find little info about how its actually been done though.

Any two coils, or just the outer ones? Some claim wire two of the coils in parallel and some say to run the two in opposite polarity so the flux would flow properly, all the while there is debate on how clean the power output would be, output current limits, shorting the unused coil..dummy loads, etc..

I have a tenancy to fry electronics if I don't completely understand them, so wiring a 220v transformer in an other than intnded manner naturally scares the heck out of me. I don't know my transformers well enough to say how its wound,this sticker shows it? Every number on this sticker has an terminal to go with it, so I figure it could be wired up any way I want too.



Would it be better build or buy the recitfiers for them? Any suggestions for where to buy them, or to find the info to build them?

[a67429]

Good news I guess. My brother who is co-funding this build has decided he'd rather buy new transformers, than trust me and "what I read on the internet" to reuse the old transformers. Well...it his dime, so I'm not gonna complain. A pair of new toroids will look MUCH better in the cabinet than those old ones anyway.

The 56v Z axis motor was powered by a 60v transformer, rectified, this would come to just shy of 85v right? (60x1.41). And X and Y were powered by a 90v tranny, rectified this would be 127v. I feel it likely safe to assume that the X and Y motors are 50% higher voltage than Z based on their power supplies which would make them 84v motors.

What I can't decide is should I get 60v and 90v power supplies to stay close to the motor data plate voltages, or go with closer to 85v and 130v ones?

At this point in the retrofit i figure I should get the shopping list going for parts and its looking like this:

Cheap 4kw VFD from eBay to power my 3kw spindle. (Haunyang)
3x DG4S-16035 servo drivers from cnc4pc
C35 quick breakout board from cnc4pc
C6 Spindle control board to go with above.
Which ever voltage power supplies you guys reccomend...
Misc cables, etc..

I figure I will likely upgrade to an Ethernet smooth stepper and the C32 break out board later once things are up and running. The C35 and C6 board are cheap, and will just be used for proof of concept / function.

[Al_The_Man]

They are pretty darn big. A 1.414 mulitplier would put the output at nearly 1900 watts which I'd certainly be comfortable with.

Unfortunately the Kva stays the same, it is not multiplied by the 1.414 figure.:devious:
The extra peak DC is not harmful to the motors, there is a drive in between so Rated current and voltage (rpm) is controlled by the drive.
Al.

[ozzie34231]

Hi all,
I also have a Shizuoka, Built in the 70's, CNC by Autonumerics, Haupaque,NY
It was converted to a manual machine along the line and I have taken it back to CNC; servos, Mach 3, etc.
It works fine, but I have about 0.003" backlash in the Y axis. The other two are less than .001"
I have looked at the nut carrier but can't see much without taking it apart. Do any of you know what the inside looks like? Is there a double nut that could be adjusted; hope, hope, hope; or do I just buy another screw and nut.
Thanks for any insights,
Ozzie

[chuck767]

Hey a67429, sis you get the mill running with the new control? I have an identical mill and was planning to install a CamSoft PC control.

[a67429]

Hi all,
I also have a Shizuoka, Built in the 70's, CNC by Autonumerics, Haupaque,NY
It was converted to a manual machine along the line and I have taken it back to CNC; servos, Mach 3, etc.
It works fine, but I have about 0.003" backlash in the Y axis. The other two are less than .001"
I have looked at the nut carrier but can't see much without taking it apart. Do any of you know what the inside looks like? Is there a double nut that could be adjusted; hope, hope, hope; or do I just buy another screw and nut.
Thanks for any insights,
Ozzie

I really don't know, I haven't dug into the machine that far yet. I'm interested to know what you find though. Your gonna have to take it apart to change the nut and screw anyway...if you find it adjustable, do that and put it back together?

Hey a67429, sis you get the mill running with the new control? I have an identical mill and was planning to install a CamSoft PC control.

I honestly haven't touched it again since my last post. Financial situation has been a little tight. In the past week I've been putting a lot of thought into getting it going again though, and am trying to compile a new list of components that I'll need to make it run.

I still find myself a little hung up on power supplies though. I can't decide if I should run each axis from its own power supply, get one 60v supply for Z and run X and Y from a second 72v one, or simply run all three axis from one 72v supply. One 1440w supply seems minimal for all three axis, 4320 watts seems like overkill. Two power supplies is all I'm gonna get from a 30a 110v circuit in my garage, and I still need lights, an air compressor, and the controler computer at least.

With 4320 watts driving the axis's and another 3300 for the spindle...that's a little over TEN horsepower all together, or every bit of 35amps on the 220v circuit. Granted that kind of power will never realistically be used, I don't want to find myself coming up short either.

Its surprising to me that no matter how much I run this stuff through my head I can't make a decision, but as soon as I type out the dillema...it all makes sense. I'm gonna get one 60v supply for Z and one 72v for X and Y, wire them into the 220v circuit and everything else from 110v...if I have any problems, I'll get another 72v supply for X and Y. . ....That is unless anyone thinks a single power supply can handle all three axis's....


Does anyone know if those XHC motion controllers I'm seeing on eBay are any good? I can't seem to find any info on them...surely they can't be as bad as the 6560 boards were, and many people seemed to make those work to a certain extent.

[a67429]

Is anyone familiar with the Haas-Kamp conversion for re-wiring a three phase transformer to run on single phase? I came across the process tonight, but I'm afraid of attempting this with my transformers. Kinda feel like I'd burn down my house trying to sort it out alone.

Mostly reading my transformer diagram, and how each lead relates to the ones in the Haas-Kamp schematic, as it would seem that have have a lot more wires than are show here.
Attachment 255378

Apparently it works well for welders, and supposedly provides 100% output as though it were still running on 3 phase, but I am a little concerned the servo driver may get upset if the power isn't clean enough. I suppose I could just clean it up with a giant capacitor or something. This method is very attractive to me, since it would save me a ton of money over having to buy new transformers.

[nelZ]

Any luck with it?

I did a Camsoft changeover from the original Bandit control about 8 years ago. Tough stuff.

[chuck767]

Any luck with it?

I did a Camsoft changeover from the original Bandit control about 8 years ago. Tough stuff.

I found a Hurco MKB1 with a complete Machmotion system and purchased it.
Sold the Shizoka. The Camsoft retrofit sounded like too much of a hassle for me.

[nelZ]

Hey Chuck, probably a smart move...It took me about 5 months to get the damn thing going...

The company wanted to spend as little as possible. They were only concerned with $$$ their little brains could grasp. Dollars in the form of a check. Little do they know my girthsome wage accounted for perhaps $20,000 in that effort. All they cared about was that they wrote checks for about $6,000 of parts and software. I'm a partner here now, back then I couldn't get thru to the bean counter that buying a 10 year old machine would have been the way to go.

We had the Shiz with a Bandit 3 control. What a dinosaur...here in the US !! A company using such a machine in 2005 still blows my mind.

Maybe the guy who started this thread gave up. He knew some of the dots but when you've got all the relays, I/O's and everything even I found myself missing some dots after the soldering iron heated up You have to know all the dots to connect them.

The bed on the AN-S is probably 700 lb. Before I got to tuning I found out how fast it could go - by mistake....Very scary stuff.

Good luck with the new iron.