[Aegir]

I have searched for some time now, what machine I want, and just as I was narrowing it down to a couple, this is posted in a thread.
WL400

I do want cut stainless steel mostly, and I am told it is up to it, (in light passes) by the company.
That is fine, I am not in much of a hurry to make my parts anyway, and like the look of this machine a lot, in more ways than one.

Opinions are welcome, but does anyone have one? I have searched the net, to find a handful of threads on this, with even less posts.
Must be some people here that have this machine, and have an opinion on it, and for the material I want to cut.
To give some ideas to what work it would be doing, these...Attachment 184662

[Aegir]

Really, no one has one?

[wizard]

Really, no one has one?

Nope don't have one but I'm going to say this is not the machine you want. Mainly because it seems to be oriented to high speed spindles and thus is not suitable for common milling operations on stainless steels. That is a quick guess based on the machine description and the picture of the parts you have.

[Aegir]

Nope don't have one but I'm going to say this is not the machine you want. Mainly because it seems to be oriented to high speed spindles and thus is not suitable for common milling operations on stainless steels. That is a quick guess based on the machine description and the picture of the parts you have.

I had considered that to be a problem.

I would assume though, that even with a high speed spindle, that you would just slow it down and make shallow cuts?
The reason I say that, is the case that was made for my prototype was done on a machine that runs to 40000 rpm. I know it might not be the ideal setup, but I am struggling to find something for a cost that is ok, and a size that is not as big as a car and can do the job.
I looked at the Tormach 1100, but seems to not always have the best reviews.
I would want to have a non Chinese mill, but that seems almost impossible, considering costs. The WL 400 certainly sounds like it has the specs, but is small, and like you say, has the higher speed spindles.
Second hand VMC or so here in Australia, is not really working, as they are basically the same as what you would pay new. 3 phase power is out of the question also.
The only other thing in my price that fits the size criteria, is a Wabeco mill. But it has no ATC, and everything is an add on, bringing its price to the same as the WL 400. I seem to be going in circles at the moment.

[underthetire]

Why not high speed spindles for stainless ? we run 20K all the time on small tools for stainless. Agreed your not going to rough using a 1/2 endmill. Be aware, your not going to get away with cheap cutters though.

[handlewanker]

Hi, I've had that machine on my photo list for a year or more as I like the layout.......there are also some videos of it working on their website........pretty high price, and shipping won't be cheap from the USA.

Attached is another fixed gantry type mill with ATC on the end of the table, made in India by the Toolcraft company.

Another mill to consider is the UMC 10 made by David DeCaussin of Fadal fame from California.......videos on UTUBE.

You didn't say what your budget was.

There is/was a big write up of a CNC column mill by Skyfire developed from the ground up with total CNC features that would suit your type of work if you only want to do watch cases and maybe camera parts etc.
Ian.

[Aegir]

Hi, I've had that machine on my photo list for a year or more as I like the layout.......there are also some videos of it working on their website........pretty high price, and shipping won't be cheap from the USA.

Attached is another fixed gantry type mill with ATC on the end of the table, made in India by the Toolcraft company.

Another mill to consider is the UMC 10 made by David DeCaussin of Fadal fame from California.......videos on UTUBE.

You didn't say what your budget was.

There is/was a big write up of a CNC column mill by Skyfire developed from the ground up with total CNC features that would suit your type of work if you only want to do watch cases and maybe camera parts etc.
Ian.

UMC 10 looks the part, though it is basically the same price in the end as the WL 400
Budget is up to the high 20;s but the less the better of course.
I do plan to ask for some sort of deal, regardless of the company. I will look for more info on the ones you suggested, thanks.

[bhurts]

I believe from the picture that you are cutting watch parts. If so that means smaller cutters. If that's the case l don't see why that machine won't work for you.

Ben

[Aegir]

I believe from the picture that you are cutting watch parts. If so that means smaller cutters. If that's the case l don't see why that machine won't work for you.

Ben

Thats what I was thinking, but whenever watches are mentioned, I think most people have a mental picture of watch movement parts.
95% of the use I will make of the machine, will be the cases, and the center case part is the thickest, at 12mm, but due to the curve of the lugs where the strap attaches, it would start as approx 20mm thick, 55mm long and 45mm wide. The other case parts are much less work, such as the bezel and the back.
It has a 33mm dial area to machine out as well, and if I spend the best part of 30k on a mill, I will not have a lathe, which would be more than useful, especialy doing the threads inside the case and external on the case back.

[bhurts]

You should be able to use a thread mill to do that.

Ben

[handlewanker]

Hi, would these watch cases be custom made items, one offs to special order, exotic materials etc?

A budget of 20K should allow you to surf the field without being tied for dough.

I would have to think that an ATC capability is the first consideration for any mill on offer.

On that score the World is now leaning towards 3D printing, so I'd keep my options open in that field too......probably early days for that method though.
Ian.

[wizard]

Interesting, I must have been in a hurry when I first responded as I thought you had a flange there for some hydraulic plumbing. That is several magnitudes in part size difference. This would significantly impact my first statements above.

Someone mentioned the Fadec machine which might be worth considering. I'm not sure what your problems are with the Tormachs as they are nice machines. Given that though you might be better off with a machine that has linear ball or roller ways. Frankly Hass has a nice mill that might work for you if the budget permitted. Considering the size of the parts and the probable cutter size I can see where a higher speed spindle might be of an advantage. That has to be balanced somewhat against the types of materials you expect to machine.

Thats what I was thinking, but whenever watches are mentioned, I think most people have a mental picture of watch movement parts.
95% of the use I will make of the machine, will be the cases, and the center case part is the thickest, at 12mm, but due to the curve of the lugs where the strap attaches, it would start as approx 20mm thick, 55mm long and 45mm wide. The other case parts are much less work, such as the bezel and the back.
It has a 33mm dial area to machine out as well, and if I spend the best part of 30k on a mill, I will not have a lathe, which would be more than useful, especialy doing the threads inside the case and external on the case back.

The mill should be able to do the threads for you. In fact I would think this would be the preferred way. Hass for example has their Mini Mills and office mills some of which start at a bit over $33,000. Like all things machine tool, the price is flexible with plenty of options to flex in the wrong way for you. The thing here is that you can negotiate a bit and look for similar machines used. Obviously you don't want a huge mill for this application.

I'm a strong proponent of used, at least here in the USA. Between going out of business sales, retiring toolmakers and government surplus you can eventually find a good deal. The only gotcha is avoiding tools that have been beaten to death.

[Aegir]

Hi, would these watch cases be custom made items, one offs to special order, exotic materials etc?

A budget of 20K should allow you to surf the field without being tied for dough.

I would have to think that an ATC capability is the first consideration for any mill on offer.

On that score the World is now leaning towards 3D printing, so I'd keep my options open in that field too......probably early days for that method though.
Ian.

Not exactly. My current watch, which has been in production since the end of 2011 has been made to 75pcs only, and does not have any custom options.
The 2 new models that are being worked on now, will have several different configurations, but some custom work may be looked at, though this would be kept simple like coatings such as PVD, or DLC to the watch etc.
Dials are made in Germany, Hands in Switzerland, as is the movement. These 3 things would be counter productive to attempt to make, and to make a movement is dreaming at this point really. Ti and Stainless will be the only ones for now, but I would like to offer some super alloys if they work well for watches. If I can not cut them, then I would not consider them.

3D printers, well I have one of them, for watch cases to see how it looks on the wrist. Bit cheaper and easier to change a drawing and do it that way, before having one in metal. 3D printing is early days, and a metal one is outrageous prices, so for now the Makerbot Replicator 2 sits on my desk.

[Dylwad]

Have you contacted levil about how to machine the watch cases, or just asked about stainless on their machine? I believe part of what they do is consulting for machining.
I think having blanks wire edm cut from a sheet and finishing them (lathe and mill) would be the best way to go if you want to do it yourself. From what I have seen the big watch makers don't start with a block on the machine, they start with a blank that's been stamped or cut out first.

I don't think a tormach or any other stepper machine will do what you want. The pulsar servo from novakon is close, but needs a much higher rpm spindle and toolchanger.

Food for thought http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R16rl...e_gdata_player

If it was me I would start looking to have it done at an accomplished shop, with skilled operators and programmers, save yourself the trouble of learning to make very complex parts to high precision out of difficult material with a 3 or 4 axis machine with multiple fixtures and tool changes, I would bet a place with a large 6 axis Swiss screw machine that does aerospace or medical parts could really crank these out.

Sent from tapatalk

[Aegir]

Interesting, I must have been in a hurry when I first responded as I thought you had a flange there for some hydraulic plumbing. That is several magnitudes in part size difference. This would significantly impact my first statements above.

Someone mentioned the Fadec machine which might be worth considering. I'm not sure what your problems are with the Tormachs as they are nice machines. Given that though you might be better off with a machine that has linear ball or roller ways. Frankly Hass has a nice mill that might work for you if the budget permitted. Considering the size of the parts and the probable cutter size I can see where a higher speed spindle might be of an advantage. That has to be balanced somewhat against the types of materials you expect to machine.



The mill should be able to do the threads for you. In fact I would think this would be the preferred way. Hass for example has their Mini Mills and office mills some of which start at a bit over $33,000. Like all things machine tool, the price is flexible with plenty of options to flex in the wrong way for you. The thing here is that you can negotiate a bit and look for similar machines used. Obviously you don't want a huge mill for this application.

I'm a strong proponent of used, at least here in the USA. Between going out of business sales, retiring toolmakers and government surplus you can eventually find a good deal. The only gotcha is avoiding tools that have been beaten to death.

The UMC-10 looks pretty good, but his website is vague with not a lot of info. I will email him over this weekend however. After seeing it, I searched for reviews and user related posts, but most seem to be that they could not contact him, and moved on to buy another machine. Someone mentioned it seems to be more of a hobby now for him, and I would be concerned about support later on, if people can not even get hold of him to buy one. Quite a few said that. Looks good though, so I will try.
No problem with the Tormach, in fact it is high on my list, and sold local in Australia, so support is here. Spoke with the guy on the phone, and he would be very helpful down the line I have no doubt. My only concern with the Tormach, is somewhat mixed reviews. Granted, most of them seem to be with the machine before the ATC. Some work I will be doing, will be small too, so to have that real accuracy there would be nice. It can be done later of another more suited machine, and for now the cases are the main priority, so it is on the list, just looking for a better alternative if there is one.

The Haas guy called me yesterday actually, as I send the USA site an email, and he passed it on here. Mini Mill will be closer to 60k in the end. It can be difficult over here for the buyer, and the seller, as they have to get it here, pay big overheads etc, and a used one will be your new price.

Ti as Stainless are the main materials I would be machining, and Ti grade 5 would not be very often. If it needs twice the time, I do not mind, not in a hurry at all.

[Aegir]

Have you contacted levil about how to machine the watch cases, or just asked about stainless on their machine? I believe part of what they do is consulting for machining.
I think having blanks wire edm cut from a sheet and finishing them (lathe and mill) would be the best way to go if you want to do it yourself. From what I have seen the big watch makers don't start with a block on the machine, they start with a blank that's been stamped or cut out first.

I don't think a tormach or any other stepper machine will do what you want. The pulsar servo from novakon is close, but needs a much higher rpm spindle and toolchanger.

Food for thought Chrono watch -CNC CAD/CAM machining by Makino/Hitachi Tools/WorkNC - YouTube

If it was me I would start looking to have it done at an accomplished shop, with skilled operators and programmers, save yourself the trouble of learning to make very complex parts to high precision out of difficult material with a 3 or 4 axis machine with multiple fixtures and tool changes, I would bet a place with a large 6 axis Swiss screw machine that does aerospace or medical parts could really crank these out.

Sent from tapatalk

I have contacted them on both points. They responed in good time and believe their machines are up to the task. That said, I always look for real world user opinions on most things I buy, as this is better reflective of what something can really do.
Blanks I will of course try for, but to have a machine shop make them is just the thing I am trying to avoid.
Their lead times, excuses, QC etc is the reason for looking to go it alone.
I know its not plug and play.

The brand will be restructured and my aim after 6 months with the machine is to start producing only 1 complete case ready to assemble the components in it per week.
Do not care about cranking them out as Aegir Watches is more exclusive without being expensive. So the machine will not work all day

[wizard]

The UMC-10 looks pretty good, but his website is vague with not a lot of info.

True they don't appear to be web literate. However this is a startup with a completely new design. From all appearances it is a good fit for your needs. The price is right and the capabilities are in line with your needs. The spindle might be a bit on the slow side but then again it gets very expensive to build a reliable high speed milling machine.

I will email him over this weekend however. After seeing it, I searched for reviews and user related posts, but most seem to be that they could not contact him, and moved on to buy another machine. Someone mentioned it seems to be more of a hobby now for him, and I would be concerned about support later on, if people can not even get hold of him to buy one. Quite a few said that. Looks good though, so I will try.

It should be noted that some of those comments come from before the machine was even in production. I don't know about the current direction of the company but they have posted YouTube videos as late as today. P

No problem with the Tormach, in fact it is high on my list, and sold local in Australia, so support is here. Spoke with the guy on the phone, and he would be very helpful down the line I have no doubt.

If you are about to buy a cheap machine assume that most of the support will be DIY. A machine built out of generic parts is far easier to service over time than one built with custom parts. Make sure whatever company you go with includes a complete set of documentation, electrical prints, mechanical prints and parts lists.

My only concern with the Tormach, is somewhat mixed reviews. Granted, most of them seem to be with the machine before the ATC. Some work I will be doing, will be small too, so to have that real accuracy there would be nice. It can be done later of another more suited machine, and for now the cases are the main priority, so it is on the list, just looking for a better alternative if there is one.

The Fadec solution appears to be made with better controls. That might be debatable.

In any event saying that a company has gotten mixed reviews doesn't mean much unless there are specifics to be discussed. Especially on the Internet where discussions may get overblown. The point is there are many Tormach owners that swear by their machines.

The Haas guy called me yesterday actually, as I send the USA site an email, and he passed it on here. Mini Mill will be closer to 60k in the end. It can be difficult over here for the buyer, and the seller, as they have to get it here, pay big overheads etc, and a used one will be your new price.

You could always move to the USA. ������. Well either here or someplace with an industrial history. By the way there are some awesome machine tools made in Japan and if you are selective China. That might cut your shipment costs some.

Ti as Stainless are the main materials I would be machining, and Ti grade 5 would not be very often. If it needs twice the time, I do not mind, not in a hurry at all.

One thing to consider is that you will want a machine with a full enclosure and flood coolant. If not flood coolant a way to blast chips out of the cutting area. One problem with Stainless is that the chips are very hard and that recutting them leads chipped and broken tools. The parts may be small but you will want to contain the chips and mists as much as possible while at the same time making sure they are not left in the cutting area.

[handlewanker]

Hi, that's a nice hobby/full time occupation to be involved in.

Sourcing the fiddly bits from the experts would have to be the sane thing to do, otherwise you're re-inventing the wheel every time you want to go shopping.

The LW400 mill also has a 4th axis built in and an ATC function....price seems pretty reasonable for that packages, and using state of the art linear ways means you don't have to pay for the hand scraped ways of other machines.

There is another machine that has just been built by a commercially orientated poster on this forum by the name of Skyfire, and this build was described in infinite detail on another thread.

It's quite a small table top model, approx XYZ work envelope of 200mm X 150mm X 200mm, but has been made from orthodox production methods completely from the ground up using full workshop CNC facilities with a commercial aspect for the end product, price range for complete package ready to go is indicated at under $5,000.

While this may seem ridiculously uncompetitive compared to a Haas or a Tormach, the capability lies in the build package in that it is a complete CNC dedicated build platform far removed from retrofit hobby type mills.

So far there has been no more word on the availability of the mill, but it looks very promising for small type precise machining jobs, and many options are listed for a final package offering.

You can check the posters thread by looking up Skyfire's posts.

Attached is one pic of the mill as it was finally assembled before testing.
Ian.

[Aegir]

Some very good points you have made. Thank you.
I will look closer at the UMC 10 as well

[handlewanker]

Hi, would you specifically need the Auto Tool Change function for walk away and leave it to do it's thing point of view, or purely to have tool changing with TTS type tooling in a QCT mode, as opposed to manually removing tools from collet chucks etc.

A lot would depend on the need to constantly change tools for different functions in a narrow time frame, whereas if the machining is being carried out with one type of tool for a long period of time, then the ATC is probably not entirely necessary, handy for having a variety of tooling pre-set and available for dial up application as/when needed, but a QCT using a TTS set-up would probably function more simply for the same outcome.
Ian.