[Aegir]

Hello Gents,

My first post here to say hello and ask some opinions. (and I am not too savvy as of yet with mills or lathes)
Yes I have read through quite a few threads, and have many more to get through, but is nice to ask directly in a thread.

I own a small watch brand, and all my parts are out of Germany and Switzerland. That is great, but I am a hostage to their time schedule, and as I am very low volume, they seem to put me at the back of the queue every time. An example, even though I can not make these, some movements I have been waiting for have been over 2 years delayed over and above the 7 month lead time!

So I am looking to eventually go it alone and make cases and buckles in house.
At the current moment I would want to make buckles in Stainless and Ti, and do prototype work in Stainless steel and Ti for cases.
Some engraving work of course on the case backs will also need to be done.

After some time I would want to run the machine daily, and in no real hurry, to make 5 to 10 cases per week as well as 20 buckles.
To supplement my returns on watches, I would also be interested eventually to run the machine making some gun bits like alloy extended mag wells, and brackets for mounting of reflex sights etc. Some bike bits, and maybe motor cycle foot pets and rear sets etc.,

I am looking currently at the TorMach 1100 with basically every part they offer to cover all bases. ATC for sure as well, and will narrow the parts down in the end when I understand what really is needed and what is not. 30K it will be in the end with all the tooling.
Now I know a lot of that I will not require and no doubt it will drop by a few thousand on that price, but that is ok for company if the machine is really up to the task.

I suppose the question is not weather it has the grunt for Ti or Stainless, as I have read the answers to that already, but would be more to the point of, is this machine accurate enough and will it finish a part well enough, such as a watch case and buckles. My concern would be between the lugs where the strap goes
becomes a right angle and quite a fine one
Attachment 183750

So any opinions on the machine to do my work would be greatly appreciated.

[Dylwad]

Nothing besides EDM or stamping will give you sharp corners like that, unless you do some 4 axis finishing with a fine engraving bit which would take forever.

Might want to look into the Levil WM 400 as an option too, more suited for micro precision machining than the 1100, ATC is standard, will end up cheaper, has higher spindle speeds that you need for smaller bits and much tighter specs than the tormach.

Sent from tapatalk

[Aegir]

Nothing besides EDM or stamping will give you sharp corners like that, unless you do some 4 axis finishing with a fine engraving bit which would take forever.

Might want to look into the Levil WM 400 as an option too, more suited for micro precision machining than the 1100, ATC is standard, will end up cheaper, has higher spindle speeds that you need for smaller bits and much tighter specs than the tormach.

Sent from tapatalk

Interesting looking machine, and one I have not seen. Though it is as a base price starting to get up to the Wabeco. Granted, that has no ATC.
I wonder how suited it is to heavy work though, as it is a lot smaller than the Tormach. I like the spindle speeds of it, size is great if it is up to the task.

My cases are currently done by wire erosion, though that was my request at the time, they were going to machine it.
The corners are very important, as this is my current case design, and the new models share a middle case and case back. So what is forever on the 4th axis you mention?

Tooling up for stamping low volume I can not see as practical and I have been looking at EDM, but no prices are available, and just looking at the pics, I know how much already! More than I can spend. Maybe there are ones below the 25 to 30K mark that you know of.?

[GJeff]

The Tormach definitely has the power to do stainless steel and titanium. You can get the $400 Kress companion spindle for using tiny end mills for work at high RPMs.

If I were you I'd play around with some free CAM trials like Sprutcam and see just how difficult it can be to turn a model with tricky corners into a finished piece with machining. And keep in mind you need to keep the piece rigid the whole time. With V shaped engraving mills that corner looks possible, but actually achieving it is a bit of an art not to mention a headache when you're using less than perfect CAM software.

[Aegir]

The Tormach definitely has the power to do stainless steel and titanium. You can get the $400 Kress companion spindle for using tiny end mills for work at high RPMs.

If I were you I'd play around with some free CAM trials like Sprutcam and see just how difficult it can be to turn a model with tricky corners into a finished piece with machining. And keep in mind you need to keep the piece rigid the whole time. With V shaped engraving mills that corner looks possible, but actually achieving it is a bit of an art not to mention a headache when you're using less than perfect CAM software.

That is a good suggestion, and I will download a trial of that to check. Never thought about that.
The machine that did the prototype of mine (i forget the brand ) was fairly small, and had a spindle speed of 40,000rpm. Though it was over 260K Euro apparently
Attachment 183774

He did run into trouble engraving the case back, and snapped a tool.

So taking your advice, and downloading the software will give me an idea of what a machine is doing, but it is not machine specific right, so will it tell me what tool is required, or what will I be looking for exactly to make a choice in the final machine purchase?
It is apparent by now I am no machinist, but that is easy fixed, with some help and more help.

[BAMCNC.COM]

I cut Titanium everyday on my 1100, watch YouTube videos just type in Tormach, or Tormach Titanium, etc and you will have hours of watching.

[Moggot]

So taking your advice, and downloading the software will give me an idea of what a machine is doing, but it is not machine specific right, so will it tell me what tool is required, or what will I be looking for exactly to make a choice in the final machine purchase?

I suspect the suggestion to look into the CAM software is more a general 'find out that this is actually pretty complicated'. Different packages will hold your hand to different extents, but none will tell you exactly what tool is best for a given situation, how to hold the workpiece, or what operation is optimal. The truth is that CNC machining is still machining; it takes a good deal of experience and skill, and the only source for those things is time and effort.

It is apparent by now I am no machinist, but that is easy fixed, with some help and more help.

I'm reminded of a Dilbert comic, where one of Dilberts coworkers explains that she is tired of being a secretary and wants to learn to be an engineer, and doesn't care if it takes all day. Like I said, this stuff is complicated, and you're looking to make some pretty challenging parts. It took me a couple of weeks to figure out how to make fairly simple parts on my 1100, and that's coming into it with a background in manufacturing. There's just an unavoidable (and at times expensive!) learning curve.

I guess my advice is to carefully consider your expectations. CNC machining is no less a skill set then carpentry or watchmaking. You need the tools, but they're only part of the equation. Plan on spending a year getting familiar with your mill, tooling, software and materials before you start cranking out the quantity and quality of parts you're considering.

Tl;Dr: Yes, an 1100 is probably capable of making the parts you've described in those materials, but it'll be challenging.

[FuriousGeorge]

One thing to consider is outsourcing the sharp corners of the watch to someone who has EDM capabilities and machining the rest yourself. You could start off with a blank that already has the most difficult part done. The lead times/cost shouldn't be to bad and it would probably end up being cheaper when you factor in all the aggrivation/ machine time/broken engraving mills for a cut like that.

Another thing to remember is that parts comming off the mill will NOT have a finished look like in your picture. You'll have to invest some more time/money into vibatory tumbling and sanding.

[GJeff]

Your CAM won't tell you what tool to use, but if you're like me you'll quickly be telling it what tool to use and where to shove it.

[philbur]

I think you are on the wrong forum. Your question should be what processes are needed in order to make a watch case and what equipment do I need. Not will a Tormach 1100 be capable of milling these sharp corners. You should be on a watch making forum not a milling machine specific forum.

Having said that almost for sure a Tormach 1100 is capable of doing what you ask but in reality it is too big and to slow for such small delicate work. A Tormach 770 would probably be a better match.

If you search this forum you will find at least two discussions on watch case making.

Phil

PS: It is not an uncommon mistake to assume that CNC greatly reduces or removes the requirement for knowledge and skill. In reality it is the reverse.

[philbur]

If your real issue is the glacial rate at which your current suppliers respond then it should be infinitely more easy to find alternative suppliers than to learn all that is necessary to roll your own, and that's before you take into account the cost of the equipment. It may seem like cold water but then I think you are not full aware of the mountain you are proposing to climb. If you have a year or two during which you are not planning to be doing much else then, with dedication, you may have some success.

Phil

[Aegir]

If your real issue is the glacial rate at which your current suppliers respond then it should be infinitely more easy to find alternative suppliers than to learn all that is necessary to roll your own, and that's before you take into account the cost of the equipment. It may seem like cold water but then I think you are not full aware of the mountain you are proposing to climb. If you have a year or two during which you are not planning to be doing much else then, with dedication, you may have some success.

Phil

Wish it was that simple. The current suppliers I have are considered to be the best in my market. I am on this forum as there simply is no watchmaking forum for this sort of work. And also as I am leaning towards this machine.
I admit, I thought to a degree that CNC would take most of the work from me, but I do realize that is not a 3D printer.

I am not rushing into this, hence the reason I am here. I see no real alternative long term for my company. This machine is fairly cheap in the scheme of things so not so much risk on my part. I do realize I will need training, lots of it, practice and help often from qualified people. I have the time and can get training and I have access to machinists for help on a part time basis.

At some point I will sit done with one, but what I learn here might go some way towards my not sounding a complete fool and push the talks in a more meaningful direction.

I did a search of the forum for watch cases but perhaps it needs more specific queries which I will do now.

[tbaker2500]

Aegir,

A lot of excellent point have been made here, and you seem ready to take on the challenge. I think the realization to take away from this is:
In order to produce this part yourself, you must become a skilled machinist.

I know that I became a machinist in order to produce the parts the company I owned, needed. (Outdoor / Indoor Laser Tag Guns and Equipment by Steradian Laser Tag) It was cheaper in the long run for me, but I wouldn't have undertaken it if I didn't already have interest in learning the trade. If you are interesting in learning the trade, then dive in. Worst case, find out that you don't want to do it, and sell off the machine.

Buy the 770 instead, you will want the higher spindle speed. The 4th axis will help. You definitely want SprutCam despite the steep learning curve that goes with it. You will need a good CAD package.

I suggest watching the Sprutcam tutorials Tormach puts out on youtube. This is similar to watching someone paint; it looks easy. But you can pick up a good feeling for how things are accomplished. In fact, just watch youtube videos out the wazoo and glean all you can. :-)

[Scott_M]

Here are the two I remember

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/tormac...precision.html

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/tormac...ess_steel.html

Scott

[Aegir]

Here are the two I remember

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/tormac...precision.html

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/tormac...ess_steel.html

Scott

Thanks they are helpful
And thanks to all for some very useful replies

[LUCKY13]

Here is a web site I think you should go check out, and then call and talk with them.

Spartan High-Speed CNC Mill


I understand you wanting to do other projects with a machine, but if this is truly for your watch making then I would very much consider a machine that was built for just this purpose. The thing about going down such a road is it does take a bit of money chunk to even do this. But, it should pay off in such a way that you could afford to add bigger machines later ( like a nice PNC1100) to help broaden your products.

If you where to buy a nice machine that could really make these watches for you then you could in fact start supplying the parts to other watch makers in a year or so after you gained your own skills.

Jess

[Aegir]

Here is a web site I think you should go check out, and then call and talk with them.

Spartan High-Speed CNC Mill


I understand you wanting to do other projects with a machine, but if this is truly for your watch making then I would very much consider a machine that was built for just this purpose. The thing about going down such a road is it does take a bit of money chunk to even do this. But, it should pay off in such a way that you could afford to add bigger machines later ( like a nice PNC1100) to help broaden your products.

If you where to buy a nice machine that could really make these watches for you then you could in fact start supplying the parts to other watch makers in a year or so after you gained your own skills.

Jess

I will have a look , thank you. Though on first inspection they look suited to small watch parts. I on the other hand only want to make watch cases.
These are more than most desk top machines could handle from my research, and this was why I was looking at the bigger machines in this price range, as VMC with support and tooling are beyond my current budgets.
The machine you mention starts at 24k as well, so tooling, tool changer, etc, soon goes way past the TorMach fully loaded price.

[philbur]

The standard configuration accuracy is stated as 0.001"/ft and the repeatability as 0.002". Possibly it is a typo but 0.002" repeatabiity sounds very bad.

Lots of other technical data on the site talks about repeatability per ft. How is it possible to define repeatability per ft. I thought repeatability was the maximum difference in the actual positions of repeated moves to the same position.

The ATC looks neat.

Phil

Here is a web site I think you should go check out, and then call and talk with them.

Spartan High-Speed CNC Mill

[tbaker2500]

It worries me that the pictures of the machine are computer renderings.

[Aegir]

It worries me that the pictures of the machine are computer renderings.

That was not lost on me either.