[inmemarcos]

Can anyone help in the design of a piston like the one shown. I need to know how will it be produced? How much will it cost producing it? For how much can I sell it? Assuming it has its own cylinder(a if it was a single cylinder engine). I need need to make a table of competing options.
PlEASE HELP!! THIS PROJECT IS DUE ON WED 15.

LINK to example piston:
http://www.engineersedge.com/wwwboar...ds/1_parts.gif

[NC Cams]

Hmmm. Looks like a mfg engineering or industrial engineering assignment. Your question is too incomplete and lacking in sufficient detail to answer properly. However, here are some numbers I've used for SWAG estimates when customers asked me similar vague questions in the past (with prices adjusted for current market pricing).

If you want to make 1 lowly part, you could make it out of cast billet aluminum. You'd probably pay $500 to $1000 per part (plus the cost of the pin) to CNC mill it and another $200 to $500 to have the part either CNC diamond turned (skirt profile and cam shape) plus ring groove turning. Figure another 20-30 hrs of CAD time to do the 3D model (somebody has to pay for that too)

A custom made set turned from existing forgings (assuming you're part has a blank in existance that can be machined to suit) will cost roughly $400 to $800/set of 8. They can work off of a 2D sketch (a decent designer who does pistons could CAD a 2D in 8-10 hrs)

If you were going to make millions of them, you'd probaby be in the cost of $3 to $15 each plus any tooling costs ($10k to $20k) for castings. The 3D CAD could carry over BUT would have to be tuned up to make a production feasible drawing.

Forgings or squeeze castings or some other high tech chicanery would cost more. Ditto that for the CAD model and any forge tooling.

BTW, waiting until 2-3 days before a project is due to ask a question which is THAT complicated and detailed is a very good way to create a lame chart which will secure an equally lame grade.

I had to do a "benchmarking study" (which is what you're being asked to make) for a similar project for a former employer and it took weeks to do (research, check, compile, create, assemble).

Having formerly also designed racing and passenger car replacement pistons (career has been long and varied), the reply is the best I can do under the circumstances.

[ViperTX]

Yeah, it would be nice to know the bore, etc. As NC Cams mentioned....it would be either cast or forged....of course you could most likely find an existing piston and use it....sort of leveraging someone else's work.....

[inmemarcos]

It is very simple everything I need. That is why I left it for a couple of days before. Im a sophomore at mech engineering. The project is for a CAD class. Please all you wrote was great but too way sophisticated. I need the basics like materials, production procces(in a couple of simple steps), Market considerations, limitations, costs, proliminary ideas, information needed to desgin it etc. But all of this is in a lower scale. The system I showed is very simple. And the professor said do it very simple enough just like if you were techaing a young boy or something like that. THe most important to me is the costs and how to produce it. The limitations of the engine that is going to us it and remember it is just one piston-cylinder not the set of eight or six. Thanks!
Here's the list of things I need. I attached the list of things Ive been asked.

[dertsap]

what type of billit would a guy use to machine a piston , while avoiding thermal break down , burn out or warpage
i always thought they were forged only

[vmax549]

Sorry sport rule #1, never do someone elses homework. Doing so would be a terrible injustice to the learning process. Hopefully you will learn one of two things. How to complete a weeks worth of research in 1 day, or how to get a failing grade by allowing only 1 day to do a weeks worth of work. Terry Parker

[NC Cams]

VMAX549 = You're right, that's why I only supplied only enough info to let the student think that he made a score and got off easy with only 2 days work. Treachery and old age will overcome youth, enthusiasm and internet access :devious: ...

Clearly, there are many topics on his assignment list that he didn't get an answer to by me. Which ones??? :devious: Maybe next weekend - after the assignement is due - the topic discussion can continue.

INMEMARCOS = why didn't you post that info list with your first inquiry??? (wedge)

You would have either gotten more information or the more appropriate chastizement to DO THE RESEARCH WORK YOURSELF!!! The prof was trying to TEACH YOU how to figure our and solve a problem - he already knows the answer and/or how to make a piston. (wedge)

Moreover, if he's a good mech engr prof, he's gonna sort out the wheat from the chaff in this class. How??? By finding who really wants to be an engineer and flunking out the ones who can't/won't cut it in the real world :drowning: Problem solving like this is what you're expected to solve day in and day out - in detail, with accuracy and with tight time budgets.

Like I said in my first reply "...Your question is too incomplete and lacking in sufficient detail to answer properly....". (chair) If you persist in taking that sort of approach to securing your education (and doing so at last minute), I wouldn't plan on remaining in engineering. :drowning:

The field is too competitive anymore to support engineers who lack the motivation and drive to FIGURE OUT THE ANSWERS THEMESELVES and to LEARN many related technologies. It used to be called "rounding of the student".

This is espeically true with the job market the way it is (witness the issues with diminishing technical employment potential at Ford, GM, Delphi, etc. Recall also that when GM catches cold, other industries catch pneumonia)

DERTSAP = there are 4-6 different "commercial" alloys that were used over the years to make forgings plus several tweaks that remain proprietary as used by volume forgers like TRW (now defunct, only the name remains) and Mahle, Venolia, Ross, Arias, Wiseco, etc.

Contact me AFTER the assignment is due via PM and I'll go into further detail.

Having been an ME student once oh so many years ago, I studied to be an engineer because I WANTED to learn the technology. Why? So I could do better in my chosen field of tech interest, race cars. It was during Viet Nam so I had DOUBLE the incentive to remain in school. There were clearly guys there to learn and some to avoid the draft, however.

I realize that the M/B has rules about flaming but I do not consider this a flame - it is more of a discertation on the REALITIES of the job market - tough, competitive and demanding.

Someone, sometime soon needs to explain this to this particular or any other student - forewarned is forearmed.

Anyway, I now run a small and technically successful cam company and I do design and make race cams as I wanted to do. :banana: BTW, along the way I worked at TRW for ~10 years during which I did the engineering for the race parts line - include designing pistons, springs, valves, bearings, oil pumps, etc.

Sorry for the diatriabe but it is truly a shame when a person who is blessed with the opportunity to get an education, apparently tries to squander it by just sliding bye..... :frown: :nono:

EDIT= fix some typos and added emoticons

[HuFlungDung]

Guys,
It seems to me that Inmemarcos was just asking a general set of questions. How do you research something like that without just talking to people? That's what he did here. No need to go off on a tirade.......well , okay, so he didn't plan it out like he was really giving himself time to do much "researching" or opinion gathering, but there are times when you have to ask questions so that you know where to go to ask more and better questions.

[ViperTX]

NC Cams.....cool.....about your business.....any ideas on a cam grinder at a hobbyist price and possibly even a crankshaft grinder?

[inmemarcos]

Thanks! I was just asking for some help because I dont know a thing about design. The class is CAD and it is intended to have an idea on the design process not to know everything about materials and construction. Im just asking for guidance n these simple things. What materials should I use, the simplest production process, the costs of producing it and the price I should give it. I dont want to be a leech. I just need some guidane Im like a freshman on this.

[NC Cams]

ViperTX - there was a mini-cam grinder featured on cover of Home Shop Machinist a number of months ago. Clever and functional for small engine. Not even close to adequate for full size engines. WOuld create a profile - albeit BRUTAL but a profile

HuFlung - having just left the corporate world recently, I speak from experience that it is getting dog eat dog. That's how I was talked to at times by supervisors so It was NOT out of line as far real life experiences can/will be. Or, they said it behing my back and I had to figure it out - usually while I was looking for work ELSEWHERE after being "let go" as part of several downsizings.

Simple, cold hard reality. It (such treatment) will come sooner or later as it is becoming a part of the profession, especially in the auto industry.....

BTW: I was that way while training some student sales folks a number of years ago - horrible, just horrible to them and very demanding during training.

About a year later, one very successful sales engineer thanked me at a Christmas party for being such an a-hole.

Why, I asked?

"Because the customers are worse...." was his reply "and learning how to satisfy you made it easier for me to satisfy my customers... Thanks"

One of the most satisfying days of my life....

Inmemarcos = more info attached in WORD.DOC

DERSTAP = Examples are A332 (cast) and forging alloys 4043 & 2618 (??) and "wye" (old european alloy that was/is used by Mahle) and VMS-75 (TRW, a modified version of what is now an obsolete cast piston alloy).

[Switcher]

So, this is where we post our autobiographies :violin:

Good Grief, he just ask for help!

.

[inmemarcos]

Hey guys here is a copy of what I ve done so far!

[vmax549]

NC CAMS you did him a favor. A lot of the problem in college today is the internet allows the student access to instant information bypassing the learning process.( I have put several through college) That initial learning process is VITAL to their future success. I too came out of the race engine field and pistons are one of my favorite subjects right behind camshafts and cyl heads. I had a cam grinder made from an old small lathe. I added a servo to the spindle and cross feed. Then added a grinding head on the cross feed. It was not fast and furious but I could do one off grinding that no one else wanted to do
( staggered profiles to match the block offsets) and could keep our secret profiles to myself. Cam grinders are notorous for accidentally borrowing your profile. Terry

[NC Cams]

Thanks for hte comments, VMAX549. Seems some of the other members don't think my approach was as benevalent.

In between the tirades, i did answer his general questions for a specific and detailed/complicated topic (and some more questions he posed in P/M).

Reason for the "autobiography" - inmemarcos indicated that his instructor suggested he contact an engineer for help with the project. NOt many piston engineers were stepping up to help so I did, albeit my way. The 'bio was for him to use as reference for his instructor, not to seek accolades from group...

Just trying to interject a dose of reality to the student - sorry if this was too curt and/or brutal - it is only going to get tougher and/or worse out there in the real world.

[ViperTX]

NC Cams....yep the Home Machinist article on a cam profiler is where I send everyone...was just wondering if there was a better one. Thanks.

[NC Cams]

I was fascinated by the article. The grinder is a midget psuedo copy of what we do with our Berco cam grinder.

I did a quick evaluation of the cam described in the article. Dynamically, it is a NIGHMARE. Since stuff is light, it will work but it would not be difficult to do one LOADS better.

We thought about making one and offering the "service" to the hobby industry. Trouble is, unless the person provided their own "core" to grind, the cost would probably prohibitively expensive.

Why? Even at $50 to $75 per cam, you'd be "giving" the time away (assuming normal shop overhead) and you'd be hard pressed to spend less than 2-3 hours per cam. Maybe when I retire and have nothing to do (fat chance as I'll probably have to work until kingdom come) I can do it on a cash only basis.

IN the mean time, it would hardly be a money maker when you consider what it takes to make a master (we cnc them, takes about an hour) and then to grind a cam (1-2 at least when you include setup for even a simple onesy twosy piece).

[ViperTX]

NC Cams....I know what you mean....it only makes sense if you make thousands of cams off one design.....was just wondering if there was a better way for a hobbyist to make his own cam....or maybe cams for a hundred or so people.....I do miss that IC magazine....

[vmax549]

NC Cams what about a small cnc grinder. You only need a rotational axis to turn the cam and a cross linear axis to move the cam to and from the grinder wheel to make it work. It sure saves the work of cutting master plates and you can make changes on the fly if needed. :-) Terry

[NC Cams]

There is real danger of hijacking the thread here so I'll try to reply quickly.

VIPERTX = there have been many cam grinders made via cobbled grinders. Supposedly Isky, Engle and Ed Windfield from the flat head Ford days did it this way. Ultimately, however, the cobbled grinders lacked the accuracy and speed of a true cam grinder.

The Berco is still "state of the art" when it comes to low volume to moderate volume (1 to 100 pieces) cam grinding. MOst all the cam companies still used them to this day....

VMAX549= Landis makes a CNC grinder for $1.5million/copy - it does a S/B Chevy cam in 8-10 minutes. There are supposedly home brewed CNC cam grinder conversions but no retrofit kits that I've seen - heard of a few, seen NONE.

The problem: Take a specific profile (or 2 for a dual pattern cam, with 0.0001 tolerance) and have them oriented at 16 different angles (+/- .125 deg) in 16 different axial positions. This gets very interesting and VERY difficult. Some small CNC grinder makers have tried but I haven't seen much real progress - not a large enough market.

It takes real power to move a 18" wheel spinning at 1300 rpm in and out at a prescribed rate and sufficient positional accuracy to generate a profile that his accurate within 0.0001".

The althernative is to move the work axis but that is usually at least as heavy or more awkward to move due to much longer axial length and inertia.

It has been done but takes mucho $$$'s and computer finesse to do the machine controls. Then there is the issue of creating the profile - lift isn't lift when you're dealing with a round wheel cutting an elliptical shape and the contact/cutting point of the is constantly moving above and below the part C/L.

The few people who have the ability to do that sort of engineering already did it and created or run a cam company. A conversion is a real expensive electro-mechancial-computer interfacing science project.

The "all it takes" statement is correct, as in "all it would take to launch something into space would be to strap it onto a sufficient size bottle rocket and light the fuse...".

Supposedly there are $25K conversions "on the horizon". When its creator feels he can grind a run-off of a profile and core that WE send them and pass our inspection criteria, I"d be interested in working with them.....