[iGAK]

I made a tool storage rack to fit into a mechanic's chest. The tool storage rack measured 15 ¾” deep by 22” wide. This item could not be made in one piece on a Tormack CNC machine as their table only has an X and Y movement of 18” x 9.5”. My Novakon CNC machine easily handled the job as its table has an X and Y movement of 24” x 16”. The 18” x 9.5” provides a work area of 171 square inches and the 24” x 16” provides a work ares of 384 square inches. In other words the Novakon CNC machine has a 2.72 times larger XY work area versus the Tormach CNC machine.

The tool storage rack stores 165 items and is made using a one inch thick piece of Corian.

The attached pictures show the project. The last picture shows the tool rack mounted in the tool chest drawer.

[rayoung]

That looks really sharp. Now you've done it, another project for the list. Last time I looked at my list I left a footprint on the end of it. :-P

Ray

[azam1959]

my reason was price difference b/w Tormach and Novakon but not sure any more about making the right decision ....

this is the only post I will have on the topic and want my friends on the zone to have all the information before making the decision. I want to start by acknowledging the good support I had during machine setup. I was very nervous and do appreciate Novakon holding my hands. All of my emails and questions were answered very professionally and within hours. I do remember getting help during odd hours. Novakon was very honest and to the point and one of the best support I enjoyed from any vendor. I do enjoy working on Novakon machines and my goal of having a challenging activity is achieved.

now to the facts ... oil is leaking in mill, even if I do not use the mill, about one third of the reservoir goes to tray in a week, this is stopping me to move from wood to metal projects as I am not sure mixing coolant with oil is a good idea. I reported this issue to Novakon with in days of putting the oil first time and switched to heavier oil as per Novakon advise with no luck. Reported back and waiting to get the resolution. Hope resolution does not involve lifting the mill and I can just change some washer in the reservoir. On lathe I sent pictures of rusted chuck and metal plate after opening lathe sliding door first time. Rusting was immediately blamed on my garage condition and I am scratching my head .... one thing more ... it is been more then 18 months and still waiting to receive fourth axis hardware. Last promise I received was second week of Jan delivery, hope Novakon will follow through ....

Novakon is bending on their back to help and support but it is a small company with limited resources and giving discounts to attract new customers is not helping either with needed reserves to handle machine defects and honor warranty. I am not sure how good Tormach would be in resolving machine defect issue but looking back, I will pay the premium to have good support for the machines I plan on enjoying for years to come.

Just want to share one more data point with the community who has helped me so much during last year.

I made a tool storage rack to fit into a mechanic's chest. The tool storage rack measured 15 ¾” deep by 22” wide. This item could not be made in one piece on a Tormack CNC machine as their table only has an X and Y movement of 18” x 9.5”. My Novakon CNC machine easily handled the job as its table has an X and Y movement of 24” x 16”. The 18” x 9.5” provides a work area of 171 square inches and the 24” x 16” provides a work ares of 384 square inches. In other words the Novakon CNC machine has a 2.72 times larger XY work area versus the Tormach CNC machine.

The tool storage rack stores 165 items and is made using a one inch thick piece of Corian.

The attached pictures show the project. The last picture shows the tool rack mounted in the tool chest drawer.

[MRM RCModels]

this is stopping me to move from wood to metal projects as I am not sure mixing coolant with oil is a good idea.

Oil will mix with coolant no mater what. Do a search for "Tram Oils" here an grab some popcorn. Don't let this stop you.

[azam1959]

Oil will mix with coolant no mater what. Do a search for "Tram Oils" here an grab some popcorn. Don't let this stop you.

Hope picture will justify the amount of oil I have on mill tray. I do understand some oil will come out but should I let this much oil combine with coolant every 48 hrs?

[SCzEngrgGroup]

With a leak of that magnitude, it can't be very difficult to figure out where it's leaking, and then to fix it. It's a very simple system - fittings, lines, and a pump. Worst case you've got a bad seal in the pump, which should still be easily fixable with a new O-ring from a hardware or auto parts store.

Regards,
Ray L.

[MRM RCModels]

Hope picture will justify the amount of oil I have on mill tray. I do understand some oil will come out but should I let this much oil combine with coolant every 48 hrs?

That looks like a problem. Did you tighten all of your fittings and check the connections? Might be a bad o-ring like Himy said.

[azam1959]

Ray,
Your message is encouraging and I know it will be very easy to find out the source of leak. Instead of wasting time in waiting for help, I would have fixed it long time ago if mill is not 1000 lb heavy or I have noticed leak from any visible point :-( My hope is that Novakon will tell me to change some small piece in the reservoir or oil lever .... lifting the mill is last last last last last resort.
Thanks

With a leak of that magnitude, it can't be very difficult to figure out where it's leaking, and then to fix it. It's a very simple system - fittings, lines, and a pump. Worst case you've got a bad seal in the pump, which should still be easily fixable with a new O-ring from a hardware or auto parts store.

Regards,
Ray L.

[azam1959]

All the fittings are very dry. Oil seem to be coming on the tray from the bottom of the mill but we know how fluid mechanics work. Keep reading, you will know I mean here.

Based on what I have noticed on lathe, pulling the oiler lever should take some force and lever should take some time to come back to starting position. I do not see this mechanism working on the mill. I do not have to put force on the lever and lever does not take anytime at all to go back to starting position. Since all the fittings are dry, I think first logical step is to see how reservoir/lever/pump mechanism work. I think I have 24x7 automatic oiling happening right now. Any insight on how reservoir on side and lever mechanism work?

That looks like a problem. Did you tighten all of your fittings and check the connections? Might be a bad o-ring like Himy said.

[SCzEngrgGroup]

Ray,
Your message is encouraging and I know it will be very easy to find out the source of leak. Instead of wasting time in waiting for help, I would have fixed it long time ago if mill is not 1000 lb heavy or I have noticed leak from any visible point :-( My hope is that Novakon will tell me to change some small piece in the reservoir or oil lever .... lifting the mill is last last last last last resort.
Thanks

I'm not familiar with that machine, but I can't imagine lifting the mill should be necessary. Even on my knee mill, I can get to most of the fittings and lines without any disassembly. Worst case I'd have to remove the table, which is still not that big of a deal. Clean everything up, then check frequently to see WHERE oil first appears. You should be able to trace it back to the source. You can use talcump powder to make the oil trail more visible, just keep it away from the ways, and clean up afterward. I can't imagine you wouldn't be able to find the source within a few hours. Not much Novakon can do, since they can't even see the machine. It's very unlikely this is a common enough problem that they'd be able to tell you where to look. My guess would be a bad seal in the pump, allowing oil to siphon through. Ordinarily, there are spring-loaded check valves that should only allow oil into the pump on the upstroke of the lever, and the reservoir should be closed off the rest of the time, specifically so siphoning cannot occur. The pump itself is easy to disassemble.

Regards,
Ray L.

[azam1959]

Thanks Ray.

Mill is resting on the blocks which are placed on tray. Six screws are going from mill to spacer blocks to tray to the stand. Novakon did mention siphoning when I initially reported the issue and we were hoping that changing the oil grade will take care of the issue. First sign of leakage is some oil on the tray coming from bottom of the mill.

I do understand the reality and do not expect any technician to come and fix the issue. I just need some help in understanding reservoir/lever/pump mechanism.

Had bigger issues and they were resolved with Novakon help. I did hear form Novakon and they are promising some help/insight within a day or two. Hope this is the last msg on this issue.

Thanks again and I feel much better after last few messages that issue can be resolved without lifting the machine.

I'm not familiar with that machine, but I can't imagine lifting the mill should be necessary. Even on my knee mill, I can get to most of the fittings and lines without any disassembly. Worst case I'd have to remove the table, which is still not that big of a deal. Clean everything up, then check frequently to see WHERE oil first appears. You should be able to trace it back to the source. You can use talcump powder to make the oil trail more visible, just keep it away from the ways, and clean up afterward. I can't imagine you wouldn't be able to find the source within a few hours. Not much Novakon can do, since they can't even see the machine. It's very unlikely this is a common enough problem that they'd be able to tell you where to look. My guess would be a bad seal in the pump, allowing oil to siphon through. Ordinarily, there are spring-loaded check valves that should only allow oil into the pump on the upstroke of the lever, and the reservoir should be closed off the rest of the time, specifically so siphoning cannot occur. The pump itself is easy to disassemble.

Regards,
Ray L.

[SCzEngrgGroup]

You might want to just remove the pump, or at least disconnect the output line, and see if it siphons. If it does, you've found your problem. Disassemble it, and you should find some O-rings in the pump itself that you can replace. If there's a problem with the pump, thicker oil will only help temporarily.

Regards,
Ray L.

[azam1959]

Ray,

Pump assembly has a lever on it which use the mechanical energy in pumping the oil. Below the lever has a covering and I fund oil in this covering. As much as I want to claim the victory ... I have cleaned the cup pretty good and will check it again tomorrow. If I see oil in the cup, rest is down hill....

I should have done it myself but I am a dumboooooo ... want to thank you and MRM for the encouragement.

O ring is always an issue for me. Is there any plier I can get from HW store designed for O ring? What does it called?

PS: today I ran the first program on lathe which needed multiple tools. entire process from cad to cutting is automated .... I used to watch cnc machining videos and never thought I will ever reach to this level. time to take a step back and enjoy the success.

You might want to just remove the pump, or at least disconnect the output line, and see if it siphons. If it does, you've found your problem. Disassemble it, and you should find some O-rings in the pump itself that you can replace. If there's a problem with the pump, thicker oil will only help temporarily.

Regards,
Ray L.

[SCzEngrgGroup]

O ring is always an issue for me. Is there any plier I can get from HW store designed for O ring? What does it called?

Sounds like you're thinking snap-ring, rather than rubber O-ring. The only tools required for dealing with O-rings is a small pick or jewelers screwdriver for pulling the old one out of the groove. If your pump is like the ones I've taken apart, it's all bolted together. The worst part about the job is it's messy, since EVERYTHING is covered in oil.

Since you've found oil in the lower cover, there is absolutely something wrong with the pump. Could be as simple as replacing a paper gasket.

Regards,
Ray L.

[BAMCNC.COM]

Or a crack?

[Praymond1209]

Coming in on this a little late but from what I see here, it may be that there is excessive clearance between the ways. If you pull the lever on the oiler and it retracts very quick, that means there is either a leak at a fitting or it is leaking out the ways very quickly. On my Tormach, when I pull the lever on the oiler it takes a good while to retract to the original position. You should be able to see any fitting leaks.
I did the G0704 conversion and I put central lube on it, until I got all of the gobs tightened I had similar issues.
My two cents worth.
Pat

[SCzEngrgGroup]

Coming in on this a little late but from what I see here, it may be that there is excessive clearance between the ways. If you pull the lever on the oiler and it retracts very quick, that means there is either a leak at a fitting or it is leaking out the ways very quickly. On my Tormach, when I pull the lever on the oiler it takes a good while to retract to the original position. You should be able to see any fitting leaks.
I did the G0704 conversion and I put central lube on it, until I got all of the gobs tightened I had similar issues.
My two cents worth.
Pat

How quickly the pump handle returns should have absolutely nothing to do with the ways. On the return stroke, it should be drawing oil out of the reservoir into the pump, not pulling oil back from the pressure lines. The outlet port should be closed by a check valve.

Regards,
Ray L.

[Praymond1209]

On my Tormach and my other machines in my machine shop (Large industrial machine shop, the Tormach is a toy really), when the plunger is pulled or the lever pulled that is the intake stroke on the pump, when the handle is released the oil is then injected to the oil points. I have never seen one that oils when the handle is pulled, but I am young, so you never know.
Pat

[cncoperator]

I made a tool storage rack to fit into a mechanic's chest. The tool storage rack measured 15 ¾” deep by 22” wide. This item could not be made in one piece on a Tormack CNC machine as their table only has an X and Y movement of 18” x 9.5”.

I don't agree this could not be made in one piece on a Tormach. If I were making this part on a machine with the travel of the Tormach, I would index the part. Using a couple T-nuts that accepts a dowel pin such as Tormach's 31856 - 5/8" T-Nut with Locating Pin the part could be essentially infinitely long in the X direction and be machined 18" at a time. This part with lots of holes lends itself to indexing on a pin. For parts that can't have indexing holes a subplate (jig plate) with the required index holes can be used to mount the part on.

Again, in the Y direction it could be made in one piece on a Tormach by rotating the part 180 degrees (or flipping it over). Using the same Tormach dowel pin T-nuts machine one side, rotate the part' and then machine the other half. So a 15.75 deep piece could be made (actually up to 19").

[ihavenofish]

I don't agree this could not be made in one piece on a Tormach. If I were making this part on a machine with the travel of the Tormach, I would index the part. Using a couple T-nuts that accepts a dowel pin such as Tormach's 31856 - 5/8" T-Nut with Locating Pin the part could be essentially infinitely long in the X direction and be machined 18" at a time. This part with lots of holes lends itself to indexing on a pin. For parts that can't have indexing holes a subplate (jig plate) with the required index holes can be used to mount the part on.

Again, in the Y direction it could be made in one piece on a Tormach by rotating the part 180 degrees (or flipping it over). Using the same Tormach dowel pin T-nuts machine one side, rotate the part' and then machine the other half. So a 15.75 deep piece could be made (actually up to 19").

sure... "couldnt" isnt the right word... "extreme pain in the ass to the point of not being worth the effort" is more appropriate.

the oil pump on the novakon is spring loaded. you pull out the handle to draw up some oil, anbd the spring slowly injects it into the lines as the handle retracts.

if it springs back instantly, it means there is either no oil in the lines, or theres a leak, OR, that one of the injection points is exposed.