[benji2505]

Well,

I would be the happiest person on this forum if making a machine like the PCNC_III for 6.5k in the US was a realistic option. A precision machined casting of that size (base, table plus head) already eats up half that amount. And no foundry in the US will build a fully automated casting line for 1,000 pieces or less a year. And I don't think that the casting makes up for a significant portion of the costs.

The development in China is that labor costs and labor related costs are rising, but productivity is gaining fast as well. So the effect of rising hourly wages is off-set to a large degree. and they are coming from very low standards... Nothing plus 15% is still very low.

Concerning the contribution margin: 50% contribution margin I is rather low if you want to offer the service, the sales organization, the engineering, the storage and the innovation that Tormach offers.

Sorry to get a little OT here. To make a long story short: I prefer to work with a company that is able to adjust prices every once in a while rather than working with a company that does not exist anymore after 3 years.

[concombrefrais]

[QUOTE=benji2505;986230][QUOTE=concombrefrais;984717]When the dollars is worth less, so is our debt. Their is always a bright side!


well, I am not so sure about that... If you live in the Dollar zone, the face value stays 1:1, no exchange rate effect for the ones that pay for the debt(like you and me). So the likely future looks like you pay higher taxes (my bet: consumption tax named VAT) and you pay more for all the imports, which is basically everything of daily use (try to find something American at Wal-Mart).


The thing is that we cannot think of the US as being an isolated country. Here is an example of what I mean. Suppose Boeing was selling a plane for 100 millions dollars to British Airways. Now, they can sell it for more and still be competitive since it costs less pounds for a dollars. So BA may now pay 120 million for the same plane. That means increased benefit for Boeing. Unfortunately at the same time french cheese or canadian oil will now cost more dollars, contributing to increase the price of imported products.
Consequently the cost of life increases in the US and companies like Boeing need to share a little of their increase in profit with their workers by increasing their wages (even though they try naturally to keep most of it for the stock holders and CEO's).
But increased wage in the US means increase of the cost of labor within our borders so our products start to cost more as well, feeding inflation.
As wages and prices increase, we are not better off and we may actually see our standard of living decrease if the wage increase does not compensate the cost of living increase. But what matters in the case of the debt is that altogether we get more "dollars", whatever is their real value. And more dollars make it easier to pay the debt accumulated in previous years since its value in dollars is fixed and not subject to inflation. The reality is infinitely more complex and anyone who pretends to fully understand the subject is either a genius or an idiot! As I am not a genius, I make no such claim

[zephyr9900]

I'm a little surprised that noone has picked up on the "3-phase stepper motor" aspect of the Series 3. IMHO this potentially is a quantum leap in performance--not raw speed but in smoothness of operation.

In a 2-phase motor, there are times in the step cycle that only one phase is energized. Smoothness of operation depends entirely on how well the two phases are balanced to each other during the manufacturing process (mechanical as well as electrical tolerances).

In a 3-phase motor, there are never less than 2 phases energized at once. Just as in 3-phase electrical power, the instantaneous average of the power being delivered is very smooth, with three sinewaves 120degrees apart being summed.

Mechanical resonances should be much less of a concern, and I'll be interested to see the surface finish comparison between a 2-phase machine and the new 3-phase machines.

Power drawbars and auto toolchangers are fine, save 10 seconds here or 30 seconds there. But the potential for superior surface finishes on 3D contouring during a whole run? I'm intrigued (and maybe a little jealous...)

Randy
(PCNC Series 1 #128 - 10000000B)

[ndog]

Their whitepaper goes in-depth about the motors and only mentions in passing the affect on surface finish.

"The Series 3 PCNC 1100 and 770s are significantly quieter because of the change to 3 phase stepper motors. In theory, a machine with reduced vibration will produce a part with a better surface finish as well, but this was impossible to demonstrate empirically. Differences in surface finish are difficult to measure, and the effects of tooling, cutting parameters, and fixturing dwarf any influence that the motors may have."

[Spinnetti]

Looks like a bit more rapid speed for $1,000. They've spent the last 5 1/2 years convincing me that my 60 ipm was all I needed.

Phil

Edit: The really cleaver engineering would have been to keep the current spec and drop the price by $1,000. You don't put a PC(NC) on every desk by upping the price.

+1

[R.DesJardin]

Glad to see upgrades.............................there what a positive attitude, not blaming the world for anything.

[philbur]

I don't see anybody who is....., are we reading the same posts?

Phil

I don't see why everyone is schocked, cranking or upset.

[bogiestl]

I wonder if it would be possible to put together a two- or three-part column... The column as it is now, and some massive bolt-on stiffener pieces... You could keep shipping weight/pallet manageable, and go with a larger motor in the same compact package...

[ndog]

I was thinking the exact same thing , but since I don't have an 1100 yet I have no idea if it's feasible as a modification.

[zephyr9900]

Their whitepaper goes in-depth about the motors and only mentions in passing the affect on surface finish.

I realize that, ndog. When I'm contouring something I want to be accurate, I contour it twice--first to produce an even .005" or so "shell" of stock left around the part, then again at actual size. When I contour the vast majority is 8-15ipm (I'd do it faster if I had a faster spindle) and that is exactly the range where the vibration of the 3-phase steppers is 1/6 to 1/8 the old ones (and I have a Series I with original drivers, and I assume the improvement would be even more). I can hear the resonances coming and going during such work. To me it is intriguing, in a theoretical way, since I don't have the budget to do any machine upgrades for the near future...

Randy

[ndog]

Again, not having a 1100 this may be a dumb question but how sure are you that the resonances are strictly related to the steppers? I would love to be able to (safely) put my hands on the various parts of the mill during operation in an effort to see if the resonances can be changed. Same thing with regard to adding mass to different parts of the mill.

[MichaelHenry]

I realize that, ndog. When I'm contouring something I want to be accurate, I contour it twice--first to produce an even .005" or so "shell" of stock left around the part, then again at actual size. When I contour the vast majority is 8-15ipm (I'd do it faster if I had a faster spindle) and that is exactly the range where the vibration of the 3-phase steppers is 1/6 to 1/8 the old ones (and I have a Series I with original drivers, and I assume the improvement would be even more). I can hear the resonances coming and going during such work. To me it is intriguing, in a theoretical way, since I don't have the budget to do any machine upgrades for the near future...

Randy

Randy - I also have a Series 1 mill (S/N 119, I think) and might be doing the Series 3 upgrade in the near future. If so, a review will be posted here or on the Yahoo Tormach group.

Mike

[David Bord]

Mike, if you do the upgrade it would be cool if you did some 3d countouring before and after with the same settings to see if there is an approovement..

David

[zephyr9900]

If so, a review will be posted here or on the Yahoo Tormach group.

Thank you, Mike. I'll watch for if/when.

Randy

[MichaelHenry]

Mike, if you do the upgrade it would be cool if you did some 3d countouring before and after with the same settings to see if there is an approovement..

David

That's a good idea. I'll try to work something up.

[Wog]

New Pricing Effective Sept. 15 « Milling Around

Get your orders in by 9/15!

[UmeshG]

How many arya aquire tormach pcnc 1100 serise 3 ?
Please Give me machine feed back .
I need 1 CNC engraving machine whick machine i purches ?

[philbur]

I don't think a PCNC 1100 would be a good choice for engraving. The spindle speed of 5,000 rpm is not high enough. The 770 would be a better choice with 10,000 rpm, however it would still not be the best if you only intend to engrqaving work. I think 25 to 30,000 rpm would be a good number.

Phil

How many arya aquire tormach pcnc 1100 serise 3 ?
Please Give me machine feed back .
I need 1 CNC engraving machine whick machine i purches ?

[Rendrog18]

could always look at the 770 with the speeder attached. that would put you 1575 to 30k in the high range.

[Dennis Rech]

How many arya aquire tormach pcnc 1100 serise 3 ?
Please Give me machine feed back .
I need 1 CNC engraving machine whick machine i purches ?

Hello Umesh,
Any chance that you are building a Mirror-o-Matic?
I do a lot of engraving in 6061 T6 aluminum with a cnc bed mill (not a Tormach) that has a 5000 rpm spindle speed and it works fine. I use Onsrud 30 and 60 degree engraving cutters and cut about 0.022 inches deep in both single and double passes (0.02 first pass and 0.002 second pass) Results are similar.
You really do not need a faster speed in that the tip of the engraving tool is so small that with a chip load of 0.001 inches per rev the feed rate would have to be tremendous to keep up with an 18,000 rpm spindle ( I have one of those also). Because of acceleration factors, there is no way that a milling machine can use high speed spindles to full advantage in engraving. You can program your feedrate to be 100 fpm, but in reality, with a bunch of tiny cuts and lots of ups and downs you will be lucky to achieve 1/10 of that.
What I have discovered is that the quality of engraving depends on flushing away the chips that the engraving bit creates before they can get into the cut and embed themselves into the material ruining the engraving.
High pressure air blown right at the tip and enough mist coolant to prevent edge build-up works about as well as anything that I have tried.
A Tormach 1100 should work fine for engraving aluminum and plastic.
Feel free to contact me at my home e-mail address if you have any specific milling questions.
Dennis