[Shaun81slc]

Is it just me or is it getting more and more difficult to find junior workers with skill and ambition. In the past three years I have gone through 4 different toolmaker apprentices at different stages in their training and 2 guys just out of school looking to become apprentices. In order to be a good machinist or toolmaker there has to be a level of intelligence and ambition that these individuals all seemed to lack. There have been a lot of plant closures in our area where a lot of unskilled assembly workers were laid off to the point where there were government agencies set up to help these people find new careers. In most cases the human resource “professionals” that worked for these agencies encouraged the unskilled and laid off workers to get in to skilled trades. Our local colleges set up new courses to accommodate these people for retraining in the skilled trades with many of them intending to become machinists and toolmakers. There was a flood of new blood in our trade and I was receiving dozens of resumes a month from the graduates of these new programs looking for work. The problem is none of the individuals were any good, I tried a few that interviewed well and had decent resumes but one almost got himself killed, no injury occurred thank god, but none the less a scary moment because of a stupid mistake in judgment resulting in his dismissal. The other person I hired quit after 4 days because “this job isn’t what I expected”, he obviously didn’t like the fact that he actually had to work.
There are obvious problems in our area with the skilled trades and I feel it is a societal issue, no one wants their kids to do trade work as it has developed a stigma of being for people of lesser intelligence. I look back at when I first decided to do an apprenticeship, I was in grade 10 in the early 90’s I was an average student not good at languages but I excelled in physical sciences and mathematics and I enjoyed getting my hands dirty and building stuff. By half way through grade 12 I had decided to become a tool and die maker, I remember being called in to see the guidance counselor and he asked me why I hadn’t applied to any colleges or universities, when I told him I wasn’t going on to any post-secondary education and that I intended to do an apprenticeship, he looked at me like I had 2 heads and proceeded to tell me that if I didn’t go to college or university I would never amount to anything. Now I am not going to talk about what I have accomplished since but let’s just say he was very wrong. The problem I have with what happened is that everyone who graduates high school is faced with the same dilemma of what to do next and unfortunately the students who would make excellent machinists, toolmakers, millwrights and welders are discouraged from doing the apprenticeships and sent in other directions. This likely has to do with money as the governments make a tremendous amount of income off post-secondary education and student loans and people who do apprenticeships like me never have student loans, although I have been paying income tax every year since I was 17, so maybe it is something else.
There are few resources to find skilled hardworking individuals to work in the skilled trades and the few that do exist do nothing to filter out the good from the bad. The hardest thing I ever had to do as shop manager was tell a 23 year old kid that he chose the wrong career path and he didn’t have what it took to be a machinist. Maybe someday I will find that elusive 20 year old that has the skill and ability to really excel in this industry and when I do find that white whale I will name him Moby Dick.

[Markwind]

Unfortunately manufacturing is not in the future of North America, and is pretty much over , it will ony get harder, and more costly to find new skilled workers, it really is sad

But the upside is, I can buy a toaster at walmart for $12 :banana:

[emorning]

The problem I have with what happened is that everyone who graduates high school is faced with the same dilemma of what to do next and unfortunately the students who would make excellent machinists, toolmakers, millwrights and welders are discouraged from doing the apprenticeships and sent in other directions. This likely has to do with money as the governments make a tremendous amount of income of post-secondary education and student loans and people who do apprenticeships like me never have student loans, although I have been paying income tax every year since I was 17, so maybe it is something else.

Here's what I think you don't get... young people with talent, ambition, and some smarts are aware that the current unemployment rate for people with a degree is around 5% while the unemployment rate for people with a degree is twice that. Not only that, but people with a degree make almost twice as much on average.

Education pays ...

This gap has existed for decades now and is only going to get larger. So, people with some talent, ambition, and some smarts will go get a degree.
The days when high school graduates could make a decent middle-class living are *over*. And I'm not saying that is a good thing, it's just the way it is and the way it's going to stay.

Maybe you should consider people that are pursuing a degree but haven't finished it yet. I'm a software engineer and I have hired students for summer internships that hit the ground running and did a great job with almost no training. Unfortunately they had better things to do after graduating than bang out code :-\.

[jupdyke]

I agree it is sad that we find ourselves in this state. I personally am a recent graduate with an engineering degree and in no way claim to be a machinist. But I have spent a lot of time in a machine shop getting to know the real deal. It is true that our society has put a stigma on trade work and those who do it. At one point in American history we were thought of as an industrial nation and the phrase 'Made in America' meant something good. Sadly somewhere along the line we lost that pride in order to make a quick buck.

I hope that Markwind is incorrect about manufacturing in America's future, but I see all the evidence that point to his conclusion. We need manufacturing in America both for the economic reasons as well has the pride it would bring back to this country. Our unemployment rate is higher then ever and all of America is feeling the effects. /sigh

Like so many others, I am looking for a job. I hope America can put this sigma aside and respect those tradesmen who produce quality products. America needs manufacturing and Americans need to start buying locally. I can't stand on a soap box and say I never go to Walmart, but I do try. While working as an intern I did look for American manufactures. I just hope I can find a job soon, so I can support my Fiancee and her son.

Best of luck finding that new worker Shaun81slc. PM me a link to your company and I will bookmark it, maybe one day I can send some work your way.

Josh

[zirt57]

My son just finished a home build program in his high school. For one whole semester they worked on a job site building a house. At the graduation ceremony the company that sponsored the program explained why they sponsored such a program. It seems that the average age of a skilled worker is something like 57 here. In other words, in a few years they won't have any skilled workers. No one to build the houses. Now I don't know about you but I still don't see China sending over cheap houses . He basically said that the skilled trades was the next big thing because of the lack of anyone joining the trades. We'll be paying the plumbers etc more than we pay the software engineers soon. Supply and demand....

- Jeff

p.s. A good read for you Americans but it equally applies to us here in Canada. http://dsc.discovery.com/fansites/di...testimony.html

[Markwind]

No worries, we won't need any skilled home builders

http://quacent.en.made-in-china.com/

I still don't see China sending over cheap houses .

- Jeff

[zirt57]

China Prefabricated House, Prefabricated Building, Wood House, Building Materials, SIP Panels, SIP House Manufacturer - Dalian Quacent New Building Materials Co., Ltd.

LOL I stand corrected.

- Jeff

[rpmcneal1]

I have 32 years of experience as a Journeyman Machinist. Here are my observations and why there are few people getting into this trade. I will say that I have had several jobs in the machine trade all of which I left of my own accord except the last one where the company was purchased by a foreign company and closed down.
Wages are the primary culprit. I will make less today than I did in 1989 dollar for dollar, if you factor in the inflation rate you are going backwards. Degreed people you work for in the shops look down on you as though because you did not get a four year college degree you are nothing more than a common laborer. You are on top of the world when they need your help and when the job is running you are just overhead. Here is an example: I worked at a company years ago running a mill-turn, a bar-feed lathe, and a robot machining center with parts that required 50% inspection and ran a one-off cnc lathe in the time when I wasn't tending one of those and managed to run all four of them on a shift and still was asked why I didn't get more done. this is why people are getting out of this trade. I just finished an associated degree program as a mechanical cad drafter with a 4.0. Hopefully I can make a living between the two areas to last me until I die (not retire).

[jasminder]

We'll be paying the plumbers etc more than we pay the software engineers soon. Supply and demand....
[/url]

i agree to this also. Though i am from India and not Canada or America, but the situations are very much similar here. I went into manufacturing industry because my dad was already running a production shop of book binding machines and that is why i started to like the machines and machine tools when i was 13 (i guess so). i finished my school at 17 and the second day i was in manufacturing bussiness. It was like try, fail, learn and redo for me that resulted in cnc lathe.
Now the biggest problem is that we need a hand to run this lathe and unfortuntely there isn't a cost effective. Skilled people have retired and the youth is busy in earning degrees and (just) thinking that how to make money while sitting on soft chairs. Most of them don't want to move a bone. I am just surprised to see that the same is happening all over the world.

jasminder singh

[D.L]

You make a strong argument, basically speaking our trade is 3/4's of the study involved for a diploma level qualification and when we compete with a 'bowl of rice per day' cheap labor.

Do the math.

[frankee]

Mark Styne has a quote in his book "After America. Get ready for Armageddon" which I think really sums up the problem, and it goes something like: America has too many thinkerers, and not enough tinkerers. Of course, this applies to every developed country.

[Dances w/ Trees]

Seems I am on the other side of the fence.
I should have become a machinist apprentice out of high school, however I listened to my parents, bad move.
Now at 53, with a life time of experience designing 'things' for my own use I find myself once again looking at becoming a machinist.
Just for fun I design an automobile every winter, or at very least modifications to one I own.
Notice the LED lights on automobiles every where? I designed that in College back in the late 70's, oops no patent.
Recently I came up with an idea for body armor to replace the bulky armor troops use, no more ineffective steel plates, at least 30% lighter. Funny thing the Canadian military didn't want to know, so I gave it to the US Army test laboratory. They announced on CNN a few months back that testing is very positive and field testing is set to begun.
I don't lack for intelligence, I lack formal education, and as such, no hope of moving on.
The job I absolutely loved was as a design draftsman in our local electrical utility. Unfortunately it was something of an old boys club, and very backward. When the world was embracing cad and GIS systems they refused to train us because they didn't want to spend the money, didn't see a future in CAD. Sort of lost respect for electrical engineers at that point, lol. I quit the place, that was 20 years ago.
I am in Ottawa, lots of R&D here, not any manufacturing, too much Government.
One other thing I am currently on disability for depression, I wonder why.
So any one looking for an out of the box, enthusiastic designer?

have a great day everyone.

[Dances w/ Trees]

Interesting thing I have noticed on a couple of forums on LinkedIn, lots of job postings for what was once considered a labor position, now they seem to think they need an engineer.
It's not like designing machinery is difficult, sort of like designing a bridge, it has been done...
Then there is the 'five years experience' thing, I am sure that the HR people add that as a policy rather than a requirement.
I had considered going back to community college again, to get that bit of paper that says I can do what I do now, then again, do I want to deal with some fool book learning engineer who really has no clue? I did that in the electrical utility world, do I really need that again?
Another interesting observation; In Canada companies look first at what degree you have, no matter what your age and experience is. In the US the first thing I have been asked is; what have you done?
Call me crazy, I think the second approach is far more important, any experience is worth more than a bit of paper....
I have also found that a lot of Canadian companies make it almost impossible to contact anyone except the lady who answers the phone, and she is normally really grumpy.
Example; I called RIM over a month ago, trying to get in touch with a department, could not get past the operator at first, then only answering machines, never got a return call.
I called Apple and got directly to the person I wanted to talk to.
What does this have to do with the topic? It is all about attitude, and openness. The company attitude towards accepting innovation, not just the buzz word. No wonder it is hard to find talent.
Another example; Anyone see the horrible crash at the Vegas Indy race?
I saw the race, then watched the footage over and over analyzing how the car managed to get to the catch fence.
I developed a solution, and called Indy car, I was connected directly to their safety engineer, he listened intently and we discussed the idea for 20 or so minutes.
I then called the university where the safer barrier was developed, and talked directly to the engineering professor in charge of the project. I talked to him for 45 minutes about my design changes, and he promised me credit if my changes were implemented.
Now try that up here in Canada, no way can you get to the person responsible and on the slim chance you do, they treat you like a kindergarten child.
It's all in the attitude that seems to be all to prevalent up here in Canada, no wonder kids with talent run to other courses of study.
Scary future ahead unless this attitude changes.
Not all Canadian companies are this bad, some are better, but not much in my experience.

[SirDenisNayland]

Interesting thread. I guess I am one of these moby dicks of the machining world.

I worked a few summers as a kid in hs at my dads place of work plugging parts and deburring. I almost quit at 16 and started an apprenticeship, but i wanted schooling and I wanted to be an engineer. I made a few mistakes and had to do an extra year. I was going to go into electrical engineering, Carlton was throwing 17k my way among other schools.

I got cold feet about school, started debating it and decided I would rather not live the next 5 years of my life as a broke student, without a car, without fun money, and then to graduate with huge debt, waterloo was 13k a year for their program!

So I started fulltime at a shop. I was making 12$ an hour plugging machines and deburring once again. Saved up enough to move out.

I always enjoyed programming, id been doing it since I got my first computer in various forms, software, websites etc.

So I began to pick up the g code, ask questions. I learned how to operate every machine in the shop.

Fast forward 2 or 3 years and I am now the lead hand, lead programmer, lead setup tech and shop manager. I do everythibg involved from taking a print off my desk to putting it on the shipping desk. Of course I no longer debur and that was a large goal of mine!

I truly feel that schools are pushing everyone to go to school and get higher education. It's a complex subject because I know had I gone to university I would likely be one of those special cases that end up working on lunar modules making 200k a year, but I chose my path and I can't be happier. At the age of 23 I am a baby and I make more money than all of my friends and most of their parents. My job is secure and this thread is a testament to it, my boss is in no way going to find another me, ever. Dare I say at my.point that I've even outdone my dad with 30years in the trade? Maybe programming wise, but he has a lot of random useful tidbits of information you can only gain wih that experience.

Our shop has 3 mills, all different NCs so slightly diffeent programing, we have 3 standard 2 axis lathes, 2 with a b axis, as well as 4 swiss lathes. I run them all. When I started we only had 1 swiss lathe if that is any indication of anything. We just put a new one on the floor and even with the programing differences I had it set up and running in a day even though id never worked on it ever before.

When I was 16 my dad told me that.for every 10 solidly skilled machinists that retire only 1 joins the ranks. It's true. I've tried to find guys to help me out, and we went through tons and tons of people with no sign of what we want at all.

Perhaps no one wants a 23 year old as their boss, but ill run circles around most anyone any day I feel. I don't have any trade certs or any machinist schooling, everyhig I know is gained from experienece and my own ambition. No one taught me how to code, I taught myself. No one taught me matercam I taught myself. No one taught me how to operate the weird new star swiss lathe, I figured it out.

I have a guy who's a fully journeyman machinist (or well he's got 10x the exp I do) and he just can't figure anything out. Always asking me questions, can I do this, can I do that, can I sharpen this tool for him etc. It's annoying, but satisfies ne to know that ill be making some insane money in the years to come once the machinists of the world dry up and die. That is if I don't go crazy trying to manage and maintain everything first

5 years of experience and certs are a joke in my opinion. They are there only in an attempt to weed out those who know nothing, but they do a horrible job of it. I recently applied to a number of places for fun, to see what responses I may get. I flat out said I have no certs, even that I have no resume to send over. I talked about what I can do, what I've done and where I want to go and you would not believe the number of responses I got asking to come in for an interview. Everyone wants a cushy easy job to settle into and become complacent in, and that is a big degree driver in my opinion. Why work hard and learn new things everyday when I can get a degree and settle into a job where I don't have to ever do anything hard (learning) ever again!

[autobot]

wow 200k a year for machining jobs?

Do you work in a shop or you started one yourself? What parts do you make and for who? How often do you get customers going your way and what are they willing to pay?

Sometimes people ask questions for the sake of it not because they dont know the answer.

[SirDenisNayland]

wow 200k a year for machining jobs?

Do you work in a shop or you started one yourself? What parts do you make and for who? How often do you get customers going your way and what are they willing to pay?

Sometimes people ask questions for the sake of it not because they dont know the answer.

And this folks, is the reason manufacturing is failing and why you cannot find people.

Seems even reading comprehension is beyond the capabilities of most, let alone running machinery!

That said no.. I'm making around 70k. The 200k comment was for what I'm sure id be capable of if I had gone to university and ended up working in the space program.

200k a year is a goal of mine, however I will not ever achieve that working for someone. I have ideas for ventures, machines id like to design and build as well as offering consulting solutions.

Cheers

[autobot]

You posted an essay there, and to be honest, I only ever skim forum posts for keywords. This is not a reading comprehension exercise, lets make no mistake about that. If I was taking any of this seriously, I would try to use proper punctuation also.

Anyway Ill end by saying humility is a good trait to have.

[Ron Dunn]

Pay them more, treat them well.

I'm constantly amazed by the low wages quoted for machinists in these forums. These are highly skilled occupations, yet the wages are similar to those in McDonalds in my country, and the conditions are often medieval.

[jason roy]

Seems I am on the other side of the fence.
I should have become a machinist apprentice out of high school, however I listened to my parents, bad move.
Now at 53, with a life time of experience designing 'things' for my own use I find myself once again looking at becoming a machinist.
Just for fun I design an automobile every winter, or at very least modifications to one I own.
Notice the LED lights on automobiles every where? I designed that in College back in the late 70's, oops no patent.
Recently I came up with an idea for body armor to replace the bulky armor troops use, no more ineffective steel plates, at least 30% lighter. Funny thing the Canadian military didn't want to know, so I gave it to the US Army test laboratory. They announced on CNN a few months back that testing is very positive and field testing is set to begun.
I don't lack for intelligence, I lack formal education, and as such, no hope of moving on.
The job I absolutely loved was as a design draftsman in our local electrical utility. Unfortunately it was something of an old boys club, and very backward. When the world was embracing cad and GIS systems they refused to train us because they didn't want to spend the money, didn't see a future in CAD. Sort of lost respect for electrical engineers at that point, lol. I quit the place, that was 20 years ago.
I am in Ottawa, lots of R&D here, not any manufacturing, too much Government.
One other thing I am currently on disability for depression, I wonder why.
So any one looking for an out of the box, enthusiastic designer?

have a great day everyone.

There is quite a bit of manufacturing here in Ottawa.

[D.L]

Gosh, what a bump > 2 years! I'm out off work again, my how the world has changed since 2011. The start of the year used to be the busiest time for job adds, there are no jobs left in Australia for machinist in the major cities, maybe a few.
Everything is now made in China, without exception.

Good luck with that 200k per year autobot.