[silyavski]

Hi,
my machine is arriving today and i am still in doubt. I have decided on the spindle Teknomotor 1hp
The Big question is Which VFD with modbus direct control?
I dont see the reason buyng interfaces as my machine is with closed loop and i have many free ins and outs for communication. I am not a programmer so i need a clear step by step instruction how to controll Spindle on and off and speed via Mach 3, or at least VFD which has its own software for programming and monitoring which comes free with the unit.
Its unbelievable that being year 2011 for a whole week i could not find clear info on the subject, not here not at the Mach3 forums or any where else.

If i was a manifacturer (chair) this would be the first tutorial i would make and all will by my VFD.

So any body knows, is willing to share or can point me to a tutorial where step by step is explained how to connect and control directly via Modbus a VFD 1hp or even 3hp????????????

[diyengineer]

Hitachi X200 3HP. Once i get mine working, i will lay out some clear instructions.
http://www.driveswarehouse.com/Drive...0-022NFU1.html

Currently getting it to work VIA modbus and mach 3. Just need the correct settings.

Cnczone:
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/diy-cn..._settings.html

Mach 3 support:
Hitachi X200

If you end up getting one feel free to email or private message me for help.

Oh, and you will need one of these.

serial to usb converter.
http://cgi.ebay.com/USB-2-0-RS485-RS...#ht_3178wt_965

[silyavski]

Hi, thanks, while waiting for shipping quote to EU i Wonder something. I saw the thread before but dismissed it as i did not see the words:
Vector, Sensor-less and 200% starting torque at the description of this particular controller. Will i miss them? I still don't know as i have no idea:wee:

in fact i saw a thread about the sj200 /SJ200-007NFU/ which has this qualities and the guy was nice enough to publish screenshots and the brain. The problem is i can not find it here in Europe or even in USA, as is discontinued exchanged with the WJ line

what even makes me wonder more is that the manufacturer Teknomotor states, look last page at the end of their catalogue
Auto tuning functions: to avoid any damaging of the motor
we suggest not to use the auto tuning functions of your inverter
but manually set up the inverter parameters with a linear [V;F]
curve.

So what does it mean in plain English? The spindle doesnt need a complicated VFD with Vector, Sensor-less and 200% starting torque ???

[diyengineer]

The X200 should work fine.

how much money $USD is that spindle? It seems like a good company. Simply email them the specifications of the X200 and ask if it will work.

You only need to know how many poles the spindle has, as well as the Hertz its capable of. I.e. the Chinese spindle i have has 2 poles, and is capable of up to 400 Hertz.

[silyavski]

The X200 should work fine.

how much money $USD is that spindle? It seems like a good company. Simply email them the specifications of the X200 and ask if it will work.

You only need to know how many poles the spindle has, as well as the Hertz its capable of. I.e. the Chinese spindle i have has 2 poles, and is capable of up to 400 Hertz.

The spindle is 520Euro more or less x 1.4= ~720USD
Its 400 herz, double angular contact bearing,24 000 rpm, 4kg, made in italy so should be nice.
Thanks for the help, will ask them tomorrow. By the way, what is the runout on your chinese spindle? you have the water cooled or the air cooled?

[diyengineer]

The spindle is 520Euro more or less x 1.4= ~720USD
Its 400 herz, double angular contact bearing,24 000 rpm, 4kg, made in italy so should be nice.
Thanks for the help, will ask them tomorrow. By the way, what is the runout on your chinese spindle? you have the water cooled or the air cooled?

watercooled, 2.2kw. Runout less than <.0005". I don't have a dial indicator to measure anything better.

[silyavski]

Diyengineer,
Thanks for the info,
that changed my mind and at the end i bought a 0.8kw chinese water spindle.
I couldn't find Hitachi in EU for a good price and the shipping from USA was too much, and customs..., so i went with a Toshiba VFNC3.
I was reading other post of yours and wonder what went wrong when you programmed your first spindle and burnt it?


I still have some unanswered questions like:
-How the hell 0.8kw spindle can draw 6AMPs, its not possible, what is the real rating of this spindle as i need it to program the thermal protection in the VFD?
-my VFD has four input options for control:
0: Voltage signal input (0 - 10 V)
1: Current signal input (4 - 20 mA)
2: Logic input
3: Voltage signal input (0 - 5 V)

So i was thinking is it not possible to control it directly from MAch3 by option Logic Input as i read now the manual and in section 6.5.2 it seems that this VFD can be commanded by frequency pulse input signals which if i am not wrong is PWM and Mach3 outputs this

[mike_Kilroy]

Diyengineer,
........
I still have some unanswered questions like:
-How the hell 0.8kw spindle can draw 6AMPs, its not possible, what is the real rating of this spindle as i need it to program the thermal protection in the VFD?........

this is not out of the question if ur spindle has a wide constant hp range - like speed range of 1500 to 24krpm..... to get it, spindle motor has to have artificially low base speed voltage so it can continue increasing the voltage above base speed.

so rating @1500rpm may well be 76v, requiring 6 amps to get .8kw here.

so ur 800w/230/1.73=2amps expected would only give your 2 pole motor constant hp from base speed of 1500 to maybe 3000rpm then it will start falling off fast.

[diyengineer]

Diyengineer,
Thanks for the info,
that changed my mind and at the end i bought a 0.8kw chinese water spindle.
I couldn't find Hitachi in EU for a good price and the shipping from USA was too much, and customs..., so i went with a Toshiba VFNC3.
I was reading other post of yours and wonder what went wrong when you programmed your first spindle and burnt it?


I still have some unanswered questions like:
-How the hell 0.8kw spindle can draw 6AMPs, its not possible, what is the real rating of this spindle as i need it to program the thermal protection in the VFD?
-my VFD has four input options for control:
0: Voltage signal input (0 - 10 V)
1: Current signal input (4 - 20 mA)
2: Logic input
3: Voltage signal input (0 - 5 V)

So i was thinking is it not possible to control it directly from MAch3 by option Logic Input as i read now the manual and in section 6.5.2 it seems that this VFD can be commanded by frequency pulse input signals which if i am not wrong is PWM and Mach3 outputs this

You said it will receive a voltage input. That is how you control it from mach 3. There are many products you can use, but this would be an easy add on to your current setup, so you wouldnt have to replace your current breakout board.

CNC4PC

OR

CNC4PC

Contact Arturo VIA email and explain your situation. He will have you up and running in no time.

[diyengineer]

I was reading other post of yours and wonder what went wrong when you programmed your first spindle and burnt it?

I never did "burn" my spindle. Nothing ever bad happened..?

[silyavski]

I never did "burn" my spindle. Nothing ever bad happened..?

Sorry, maybe i am wrong, i read the large thread about the chinese spindles and got the impression that you burnt your first spindle while programming the vfd, it was sb else obviously

i am asking about the 6A draw statement of the 0.8kw spindle for the following reason. the VFD i bought, a Toshiba one has max rating of 4.2A at the motor side/230V and 10A at the power line side/230V. Also all the brand spindles I saw which are 0.75kw/230V have rating 3.2A and as i plan to cool it with a short closed circuit, like a liquid cooled PC i would like to use the Thermal protection function of the VFD which in fact is nothing more than shutoff at certain power draw. So should i set it at 3.2A like a brand spindle, leave it at 4.2A like if i use a Toshiba spindle or what?

I know the PWM boards, but with shipment to Europe they become quite expensive for what they are in fact . From what i understand reading the manual this VFD has a logic input, a kind of PWM where you can adjust the sensitivity and lengths of incoming pulses and frequencies. The problem i see is that it expects also a kind of logical combinations to react to all the possible input commands, not only speed but also start, stop, etc. so at the end maybe i will buy the board or build it. How unfortunate that i can not program Mach3 to do this somehow as the link would be straight from the BOB

[diyengineer]

Sorry, maybe i am wrong, i read the large thread about the chinese spindles and got the impression that you burnt your first spindle while programming the vfd, it was sb else obviously

i am asking about the 6A draw statement of the 0.8kw spindle for the following reason. the VFD i bought, a Toshiba one has max rating of 4.2A at the motor side/230V and 10A at the power line side/230V. Also all the brand spindles I saw which are 0.75kw/230V have rating 3.2A and as i plan to cool it with a short closed circuit, like a liquid cooled PC i would like to use the Thermal protection function of the VFD which in fact is nothing more than shutoff at certain power draw. So should i set it at 3.2A like a brand spindle, leave it at 4.2A like if i use a Toshiba spindle or what?

I know the PWM boards, but with shipment to Europe they become quite expensive for what they are in fact . From what i understand reading the manual this VFD has a logic input, a kind of PWM where you can adjust the sensitivity and lengths of incoming pulses and frequencies. The problem i see is that it expects also a kind of logical combinations to react to all the possible input commands, not only speed but also start, stop, etc. so at the end maybe i will buy the board or build it. How unfortunate that i can not program Mach3 to do this somehow as the link would be straight from the BOB

Id' let it use 4.2 amps. You will not be fully stressing the motor ALL the time, so just running it idle is not going to take the FULL amperage.

[silyavski]

Yes, that is what i will do.

By the way i found the real manufacturers web from where they copy all the info and saw that all this confusion comes from the 70/150/220 V rating of the motors and later the resellers simply in a Chinese kind of way just copy without thinking, so the real manufacturers rating of the motor is 5a at 220v and we are talking for the 4 bearings spindle, so i hope my inverter would be ok.

I found another table of the motor rating of 3 phase motors/ Amp draw of motors
which is possibly the real thing

Though they have another page where they talk about Power factor and power factor correction

So the truth should be some where there. The good thing is that the inverter i bought has Amp display /meter and can indicate the AMP draw and peak AMP draw in real time and history.

This all cause i was just for a bit worried if i have bought the right inverter, but as you said it would not be under full load. That is why i bought the 0.8kw spindle, as i don't need that 2 or 3 HP in my small machine, and just paying bills for electricity. I wish i have found earlier that they have this model with 4 ceramic bearings/ ceramic balls, yet double priced but still cheap at 300$

[mike_Kilroy]

......
By the way i found the real manufacturers web from where they copy all the info and saw that all this confusion comes from the 70/150/220 V rating of the motors and later the resellers simply in a Chinese kind of way just copy without thinking, so the real manufacturers rating of the motor is 5a at 220v ...........

please post that site info here; you have my curiosity up....

[silyavski]

please post that site info here; you have my curiosity up....

here it is Changzhou Linnan Special Electrical Nachinery Plant

and here is the main product page, which in fact confirmed my suspicions that many of the so called Italian spindles are in fact made there by custom order, what is the usual practice here in Europe, to make something in China, to control the quality of production, make some nice web and catalogs and brand it Made In Europe. i believe in China there are some factories/ i found 3 / which will produce spindles with cheap bearings, normal and high quality bearings by order and sell them to the respective markets and clients.

if you take a look into the specs of what they normally make you will find that the spindles are mostly with 4 ceramic ball bearings and after a short search at alibaba.com you will notice that 0.8kw sells at around 300$ against an ebay one which sells for half the price but with normal bearings.

lets chew a little bit that info, next time i will buy a 300$ one

PS. the bearings that have C in the name are ceramic ball ones, and DB and so on are the bearing arrangement scheme

[mike_Kilroy]

this is not out of the question if ur spindle has a wide constant hp range - like speed range of 1500 to 24krpm..... to get it, spindle motor has to have artificially low base speed voltage so it can continue increasing the voltage above base speed.

so rating @3600rpm may well be 76v, requiring 6 amps to get .8kw here.

so ur 800w/230/1.73=2amps expected would only give your 2 pole motor constant hp from base speed of 3000 to maybe 6000rpm then it will start falling off fast.

wow. I think I am right on...... I said 76v at base speed, I think they are telling you it is 76v at base speed. hence 6 amps.

what they neglect to tell you is the SPEED at each of these voltages: this is most likely NOT a 3 voltage motor and you pick one; it is most likely the design I offered: 75v at 3600rpmm, 150 at 7200rpm, and 220v at 8680rpm. then constant hp upto 24000rpm. this is how we got wide constant hp range. we CALL them 800watt because that is what you can have from 3600 to 24000rpm; but the reality of it you really get a peak of HP above 3600rpm as the voltage continues to rise. so this is most likely really a 220/75 * 800 = 2.3kw at 8680rpm.

ask them and see if they fess up. they should because if you use a vfd and leave badse speed 3600rpm at 220v you will be over exciting it and possibly hurt the motor since it only expects 76 volts here. this spindle should have 220v and 8680rpm set as the base speed.

[silyavski]

yes,
i thought sth like this also, though depends obviously on which model exactly will they send me and if the ebay seller has erased the model(chair)

one of the 3 models of 0.8kw they sell says 220v/4A

The bottom line is that with the Chinese you never know for sure, good that the VFD has all kinds of protection and that the spindle is a water cooled one, favoring experiments with low speeds, any way i never expected any result below 8000rpm

[silyavski]

wow. I think I am right on...... I said 76v at base speed, I think they are telling you it is 76v at base speed. hence 6 amps.

what they neglect to tell you is the SPEED at each of these voltages: this is most likely NOT a 3 voltage motor and you pick one; it is most likely the design I offered: 75v at 3600rpmm, 150 at 7200rpm, and 220v at 8680rpm. then constant hp upto 24000rpm. this is how we got wide constant hp range. we CALL them 800watt because that is what you can have from 3600 to 24000rpm; but the reality of it you really get a peak of HP above 3600rpm as the voltage continues to rise. so this is most likely really a 220/75 * 800 = 2.3kw at 8680rpm.

ask them and see if they fess up. they should because if you use a vfd and leave badse speed 3600rpm at 220v you will be over exciting it and possibly hurt the motor since it only expects 76 volts here. this spindle should have 220v and 8680rpm set as the base speed.

I received the spindle and the inverter today

Mike and DIYengineer,
would you help me please, figuring how to configure the VFD properly

1. the Chinese spindle is a 2 pole 3phase motor yes?
2. mine should be this one Changzhou Linnan Special Electrical Nachinery Plant
as the outside measure are same and also is 3kg, not 2.5kg as the other 2 possible ones.
So it states 150v/220v , 6A/5A, does it mean that i have to configure the VFD Low frequency Voltge to 230V and the low frequency to 120HZ for example, read somewhere that this will give output of approximately 8000RPM or i can do better with 150V /??frequency ,problem is i don't know how to calculate it and the only formula i found wants to know how many poles .
3. Why i have 2 adjustments: for Lower limit frequency/ set to 0 originally/ and second is Base frequency/ i set it to 120v while waiting for answer/
I am totally lost with this and i need to hear some chips flowing around

[mike_Kilroy]

I received the spindle and the inverter today

Mike and DIYengineer,
would you help me please, figuring how to configure the VFD properly

1. the Chinese spindle is a 2 pole 3phase motor yes?
2. mine should be this one Changzhou Linnan Special Electrical Nachinery Plant
as the outside measure are same and also is 3kg, not 2.5kg as the other 2 possible ones.
So it states 150v/220v , 6A/5A, does it mean that i have to configure the VFD Low frequency Voltge to 230V and the low frequency to 120HZ for example, read somewhere that this will give output of approximately 8000RPM or i can do better with 150V /??frequency ,problem is i don't know how to calculate it and the only formula i found wants to know how many poles .
3. Why i have 2 adjustments: for Lower limit frequency/ set to 0 originally/ and second is Base frequency/ i set it to 120v while waiting for answer/
I am totally lost with this and i need to hear some chips flowing around

1. yes, it is 2 pole as told by 400hz = 24,000rpm. formula is rpm=120*freq/poles
2. no telling, sorry; not enough info. I would assume if there are only 3 wires coming out of the spindle it is NOT a dual voltage motor (or there would be more wires). With only 3 wires coming out, I would next assume they are trying to give the BASE SPEED voltage AND the max voltage - as I explained in earlier post. We often rate motors 150/220/220V AND INCLUDE THE MISSING DATA: 3600/5280/24000RPM that shows the associated speeds for the voltages. You simply do not have enough data from the motor mfgr to set your drive correctly.

If you leave vfd at defaults (prob 50hz & 220v) I will assume you will either not run due to overcurrent faults in the vfd or you will burn out the spindle.

I see no alternative, until you get the right data from the mfgr, but to simply set your vfd to 400hz & 220v as the base speed - this is safe. It will ramp up from 0 volts to 220v from 0rpm to 24000rpm. It is for sure capable of this. Until you have a base speed and voltage rating well defined by the mfgr you really have no other choice in my opinion.

[silyavski]

Thanks,

so i have 2 possibilities:

1. If i believe the flimsy specs
Base frequency 133hz and base voltage 150V or 230V
Max frequency 400hz and Max voltage 230V

2. Safe option:
Base frequency 400hz and base voltage 230V
Max frequency 400hz and Max voltage 230V

The motor has 3 pin and ground at the plug, but even the dual rated /which i believe is like mine/ has 4 pins, 3 of these for the Phases and 1 for ground, so no difference.

I will ask at the Chinese spindle thread, cause i believe there i saw somewhere there that a guy had adjusted it like the safely recommended and also as i remember, s.b adjusted it to 120hz but cant remember the voltage there

yep, at 50hz i will definitely burn it , so will not go this way

Thanks for the help

Just received this from the seller, you know its the best he can do :-):
Hi friend,
Thanks for your email.
This 0.8KW spindle motor is 6.5A, 220V, the frequency is 0-400HZ