[super95awd]

Hey guys, I've been shopping around for a CNC mill to add to my shop arsenal for a little while and have come to the decision that I would like to buy a Haas. I will most likely be purchasing new and was considering a few different machines.

The machines I was considering were the TM-1P, MiniMill 2, and the VF1 (this being at the very top of the budget). For now I will be doing some short run production and prototyping, but would like to get into bigger stuff later on. I would love to spring for the VF1, but would have to be very very convinced before that happened.

The main difference I'm seeing between the TM series and the MiniMills is the spindle lubrication, the TM's being grease packed and the MM's being oil mist. Is that going to make THAT much of a difference in the long run?

The options I am looking at are rigid tapping for sure (the VF1 comes with this), high speed machining, Renishaw probe (could probably deal with a 3D taster for $5k ), and possibly a chip auger.

Just give me you honest opinions guys!

[behindpropeller]

Depends how big your parts are that you want to make.

I like our TM-2 and the work area it provides. 95% of the stuff I do on our TM2 is aluminum or plastic.

If you are doing less than 25 parts the TM series makes sense to me. You can always buy bigger and faster later.

[gizmo_454]

First off, going from a TM-1P to a VF-1 is kind of an apples to oranges thing. the TM-1P has far less HP and RPM than the VF-1. That is a big thing. Especially if you want to migrate to larger parts in the future.

Second, if you look at the difference between the VF-1 and the Mini Mill 2, and add everything to the MM2 to bring it up to VF-1 standard options, the prices are basically the same. The VF-1 is built on a cast iron base which is far more rigid than the weldment base of the MM2. In my mind, the VF-1 is a far better machine than the MM2.

Third, I am not sure what kind of work your shop does, but consider at least a 4th axis. I was told the same thing when we bought our Mini Mill. Fortunately, I listened. It has opened doors to many parts we never would have been able to run without it.

Finally, it is really going to be about your preferences and budget will allow. Yes, you can always buy a bigger, better machine later. If you would have spent the extra $10-15K in the first place, there wouldn't be the need to spend another $50k+ for another machine because you under estimated on the first one. I wish everyday that we would have spent the extra $10K for the Super Mini Mill. But at the time, I didn't know. Now it's not $10K, now it's $60K+ because you can't upgrade to the Super after it leaves the factory.

Good luck with your decision.

Regards,
Mike

[super95awd]

Well I talked to my HFO today, specifically Greg Racicot, which happens to be a great guy, very helpful. He's going to get some quotes out to me on a few machines and I guess that will help me along with my decision. He made a lot of good points.

I know where you're coming from on the VF1/TM comparison. I would love to step into a VF of some sort, but we'll have to see where the pricing falls.

[alexjc98]

I've got a friend with a five year old TM1, the old style with no guards. He has thousands of spindle hours on almost all Nylon, so spindle speed maxed at 4,000 most of the time with no spindle problems yet. Not sure of the lubrication method on that old machine, maybe your dealer can give you some idea on that issue. I help him with program and setup and it is identical in that respect to the VF series. If your work fits in the travel of the smaller machine and you don't need heavy milling or high speed then do not discount the TM. I would love to have one in my garage, but it would not be a good choice for daily production in our shop do to the limited work envelope.

John

[bodysnatcher]

hEY BUD

i have been running haas for 3 years now...TL-1, sl-10 and 20 lathes, (2) vf-1 and a vf-2 super speed...I argue all the time with the mori owners, mazak owners blah blah....Simply put, haas is standardized, has capabilities that all others dont like g47 text, g12-g13 pocket milling, g141 3d profiling....

I like them all. of course a vf-1 would be nice, but between the tm-1/2 or the vf-1 is also a vf-oe. whatever you get...you'll be happy....

[locash]

Are the TM's enclosed? I wouldnt even consider a non-enclosed machine, unless you want to clean up even more chips. With that being said, I bought a VF2 after looking at Minimills and Super Minimills years ago, and aside from not ordering the 10000 rpm spindle, I am really happy with the VF2 and am glad I didnt buy something with less travel.. I wish I had more Y and Z travel now, but a VF4 is not in the plans.

[locash]

My mistake, the TM's are enclosed.

[dingo0722]

If this is your first machine I would highly recommend that you buy a used machine and go for the VF series of family. We run VF-2 here, is a real nice machine with a work envelope that can make allot of parts.

You should be able to find a nice VF-2 with options like auger and 10K spindle with low hours on it for cheaper than buying a new TM1/2.

Just my thoughts, but I would definitely go used

[cheetahcnc]

Are the TM's enclosed? I wouldnt even consider a non-enclosed machine, unless you want to clean up even more chips. With that being said, I bought a VF2 after looking at Minimills and Super Minimills years ago, and aside from not ordering the 10000 rpm spindle, I am really happy with the VF2 and am glad I didnt buy something with less travel.. I wish I had more Y and Z travel now, but a VF4 is not in the plans.

The TM-1P and the TM-3P are enclosed. The "P" is for the enclosure. They also come with a higher RPM spindle and tool changer. Real nice units, I would go with the enclosure type for sure.

Jim

[super95awd]

I have been eyeing up a couple used VF2's. Funny that you said that. I will probably either be going with one of those or a new TM-1P.

[dingo0722]

Its a great all around machine. You can’t go wrong. You just don’t want to grow out of a smaller machine like a TM. Little things like wanting to use a 3 inch indexable face mill will give you poor performance on a lighter less powerful machine. The VF2 will be able to cut H13 tool steel at 0.02DOC and 3"WOC with no problem, and still have power in reserve, while giving you a nice surface finish. A lesser machine might not be able to cut that deep, or wide or it might give you a lot of chatter marks on the part eliminating the benefits of the face mill.

[InnovativeMach]

A haas is a great hobby/shop type machine. I don't think it should be put in a production atmosphere but it often is. One great thing about Haas which a decade ago was the opposite is it has very high resale value. I agree with someone who said get an enclosed machine, I'm a cut fast and hard type guy and an open machine will make a huge mess with any small part runs. I would pass on the renishaw probe, unless you are the only one that uses it and you never make mistakes odds are that thing will get smoked fast. The only time I see renishaw probes in a shop are in huge FMS systems which have been dummy proofed. They're too fragile for a job shop environment IMO and they are costly.

[ducesrwld]

A haas is a great hobby/shop type machine. I don't think it should be put in a production atmosphere but it often is. One great thing about Haas which a decade ago was the opposite is it has very high resale value. I agree with someone who said get an enclosed machine, I'm a cut fast and hard type guy and an open machine will make a huge mess with any small part runs. I would pass on the renishaw probe, unless you are the only one that uses it and you never make mistakes odds are that thing will get smoked fast. The only time I see renishaw probes in a shop are in huge FMS systems which have been dummy proofed. They're too fragile for a job shop environment IMO and they are costly.

i'd have to disagree on most of your post. haas didn't become #1 by only selling machines to hobbyist and home shops...heck i've seen a production automotive shop purchase a haas horizontal over a toyoda. also regarding the probes it's almost a no brainer for shops looking for a loaded machine to get the probe for what it ends up costing them. the renishaws even if you bust off the stem on the probe is like a $100 replacement. gives shops the edge over those job shops who don't, speeds up set up, gets more accurate parts on the first try, less program tweaking. what most people forget to mention, eventhough it always depends on your local distributor is that when you are a one man band with one machine starting off is service/support. can't afford to be down for days on end when you only have one machine making you money....that's my 2 cents.

[dingo0722]

I agree. I have seen many shops that only use the Hass VF family for production and the owners swear by them. It might not be the most ridgid machine you can buy and it might not be the most accurate machine(+-0.0002) you can buy but unless your cutting inconel for aerospace all day then a hass will do everything you need, give you the tolerancing you need and is great for production.

Heck I was just in a Hass only shop the other day and they were still running a 91 vf2. This thing was old back when Hass had a plastic enclosures

[super95awd]

I'm looking at a 2001 VF2 almost loaded all the way up (SMTC, PCool, 10k Spindle, Gear Box, etc.) for 39k. I sure wish it had the pretty control/display though! I guess I'm being shallow.

[InnovativeMach]

Yes I see I kind of worded poorly, I didn't mean it is only good for a hobby/garage type shop. I do stand behind it is not a production machine, what we believe to be "production" might be different. As for a shop buying a haas over toyoda, I don't know too much about Toyoda but from what I understand it's a much better machine. I highly doubt they were the same price, and the shop probably bought on price. I highly doubt a tier 1 auto shop would purchase a Haas horizontal, if they do start to our automotice sector is going to have even more troubles. Price is part of why Haas is #1, they're like the McDonalds of machine tools. Marketing is the other part of Haas being #1. They are incredible marketers and it baffles me why other machine tool companies don't follow their example. It's a great machine for the money but I think you will,in most situations, be better off paying for a better machine that gives you more output from speed and rigidity of machine. Haas is constantly getting better though and building everything on their machine I think will give them the opportunity to be as good if not better than other machines someday.

[ducesrwld]

Yes I see I kind of worded poorly, I didn't mean it is only good for a hobby/garage type shop. I do stand behind it is not a production machine, what we believe to be "production" might be different. As for a shop buying a haas over toyoda, I don't know too much about Toyoda but from what I understand it's a much better machine. I highly doubt they were the same price, and the shop probably bought on price. I highly doubt a tier 1 auto shop would purchase a Haas horizontal, if they do start to our automotice sector is going to have even more troubles. Price is part of why Haas is #1, they're like the McDonalds of machine tools. Marketing is the other part of Haas being #1. They are incredible marketers and it baffles me why other machine tool companies don't follow their example. It's a great machine for the money but I think you will,in most situations, be better off paying for a better machine that gives you more output from speed and rigidity of machine. Haas is constantly getting better though and building everything on their machine I think will give them the opportunity to be as good if not better than other machines someday.

you know i asked the shop why the haas as well. and as for toyoda people would argue that they build one of the best horizontals on the market and i wouldn't disagree. there were many reasons why they went haas. for one they already were running EC-400 & 500's at a division down in Mexico so they knew what they were getting. the toyoda replacement parts were crazy for repair expenses, jap spindles will prob run you anywhere from 10-20k....compare that to a haas for prob around 3k installed.....service is quicker. ya the toyoda was probably faster but these new ec series aren't bad. how much time in a small work envolope are you going to pick up in rapids? it is way different on a larger vertical machine but there isn't a whole lot of space on these smaller horizontals. as for capabilities since when do you need a jap machine to touch up a casting?

i like debates like this, a lot of people are stuck on the have to be jap machines doing the work. ya i'm a big fan of haas, i'm a younger guy but old school mentality. i'd rather pay for a machine made in the states here and keep the profits and money going to the us. people said it couldn't be done, haas becoming a power house in the machine tool world, well guess what now they have everyone else coming out with "intro level" machines to compete, they have them built where labor is cheap, ect. talked with a guy who was pricing out a haas lathe vs okuma captain that was assembled in taiwan. price tag was only a few thousand different, so don't tell everyone haas' are the cheap guys out there, it's not true anymore.

i had the opportunity to see haas' facility out in ca several years ago. if they can make it by using their own machines to mfg their parts, assemble them there, ect and dominate the market i just wish other companies would wake up and realize that mfg can still be done in the states here. needless to say when i get my shop rolling there will be nothing but haas' on my floor. don't take this as a pissing match i just like letting people know the facts cause there are a lot of guys stuck on the jap machines and they just throw out the here say on the forums about haas.

[InnovativeMach]

I think all your points are vary valid, for sure if you're just touching up castings it would be hard to show cost benefits to go with a machine other than a Haas. It would be very hard to give a realistic analysis as to if you make more money being in production longer and spending more money when the machine is down or being out of production more and spending less money when the machine is broken down. So I kind of mentally give that a equal exchange. But for machining purposes I have run a Haas against a Mazak and an Okuma and it's not even close as terms of production and part finish. Now I'm not really a Jap guy... I'm a control guy. I love Okuma and would probably have those in my shop, but I have heard heidenhain control is just as powerful if not more so. I've been to mold shows where Haas was there along with a couple other companies that you could just tell they were no where near cutting edge as terms of pushing the cutter, control look ahead, and finish. I have honestly never played with a Haas control and like I said I think some day they have huge potential. The reason I think Okuma has such a nice control is because it is made specifically for the machine it is on. Now an entry level Okuma mill is atleast 100k so how do you compete against a 20k mill from Haas, it's a no brainer for anyone who hasn't run both machines.

I still have to say I'm suprised about Haas pick over Toyoda, sounds like a tier 1 manufacturer if they have a plant in Mexico. I've been in a lot of shops and the ones that did give a Haas horizontal a chance usually regret it, or when I ask about it they give a "it is what it is." I really hate to see US auto not doing well, I love my F150 more than any jap SUV I ever owned. But they need to start making better decisions and giving the public what they want along with a couple other things that I wouldn't mention in public... ha ha

you know i asked the shop why the haas as well. and as for toyoda people would argue that they build one of the best horizontals on the market and i wouldn't disagree. there were many reasons why they went haas. for one they already were running EC-400 & 500's at a division down in Mexico so they knew what they were getting. the toyoda replacement parts were crazy for repair expenses, jap spindles will prob run you anywhere from 10-20k....compare that to a haas for prob around 3k installed.....service is quicker. ya the toyoda was probably faster but these new ec series aren't bad. how much time in a small work envolope are you going to pick up in rapids? it is way different on a larger vertical machine but there isn't a whole lot of space on these smaller horizontals. as for capabilities since when do you need a jap machine to touch up a casting?

i like debates like this, a lot of people are stuck on the have to be jap machines doing the work. ya i'm a big fan of haas, i'm a younger guy but old school mentality. i'd rather pay for a machine made in the states here and keep the profits and money going to the us. people said it couldn't be done, haas becoming a power house in the machine tool world, well guess what now they have everyone else coming out with "intro level" machines to compete, they have them built where labor is cheap, ect. talked with a guy who was pricing out a haas lathe vs okuma captain that was assembled in taiwan. price tag was only a few thousand different, so don't tell everyone haas' are the cheap guys out there, it's not true anymore.

i had the opportunity to see haas' facility out in ca several years ago. if they can make it by using their own machines to mfg their parts, assemble them there, ect and dominate the market i just wish other companies would wake up and realize that mfg can still be done in the states here. needless to say when i get my shop rolling there will be nothing but haas' on my floor. don't take this as a pissing match i just like letting people know the facts cause there are a lot of guys stuck on the jap machines and they just throw out the here say on the forums about haas.

[durbinmachine]

I'm looking at a 2001 VF2 almost loaded all the way up (SMTC, PCool, 10k Spindle, Gear Box, etc.) for 39k. I sure wish it had the pretty control/display though! I guess I'm being shallow.

I was looking at the same machine (I think). IMO 39,500 is way too much for a 10 year old Haas with almost 12,000 spindle hours.