[super95awd]

I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on a CNC mill purchase for my shop and decided I'd ask you Tormach guys this question.

First off, the mill will mainly be used to make finished products or components for fabricated products that I make, as well as the R&D for such pieces. I will also more than likely be getting into some small-maybe medium run production for private label manufacturing type stuff, but that may be a bit further down the road.

I really do like many aspects of Tormach (the machine and the company), but I'm stuck at a crossroads. I would be looking at a fairly loaded up PCNC1100 with the 4th axis, probe, etc., and it looks like it will come out around $15k shipped. Now, for example, I have seen many low hour Haas TM-1/2 mill with tool changers go for around $18-20k. Would it pay to plunk down the extra cash to get into the larger, faster, more rigid machine? Space is not really an issue, but I don't want to go too much over $20k. My biggest issue with something such as the Haas is the price for accessories. Just adding a 4th axis drive and rotary table is up around $10k.

Let me know your guys thoughts!! My CNC experience is stuck in the plasma scene right now, with a 4x8ft table in the shop. I'd like some of you 3D guys to provide me with some input!

[rwexec]

I have made quality parts on both machines:cheers:

[SCzEngrgGroup]

In terms of accuracy and performance, there is likely not a huge difference. But, for production work, I would think long and hard about the value of having a totally enclosed machine. For production, it is a REAL benefit, as you'll spend FAR less time cleaning up your shop every day. A tool changer can also be a real time-saver, depending on the type of work you do.

Regards,
Ray L.

[concombrefrais]

I am also looking at getting a tormach, but I have space limitation so I am pretty sure I will get the PCNC 770. Have you looked at the Mikini? It is comparable to the Tormach but fully enclosed and might come up cheaper when you add all the option. I would strongly consider the mikini if I had the space. I don't have one but I read people like this machine as well.

[RTP_Burnsville]

I really like my Tormach for R&D stuff that I do but with that said if I were doing production I would look for something else. Time is money and there are many very lightly used machines on the market now that the economy is in the tank. You might also look at the mini-mill, also Milltronics as they have a nice line of machines similar to Haas. A toolchanger and being enclosed are good things in a production environment.

Robert

[benji2505]

For a small rigid mill with 4th axis support and tooling you have to compare $15k for a tormach solution vs. $25k for a used Haas MM or TM solution. The only Haas advantage I see are ATC (for the MM) and the servo motors. Other than that I don't think that the extra $10k are worth it.

[super95awd]

Thanks for the opinions guys! Keep them coming.

I guess what I keep getting hung up on are the 90ipm rapid rates. I'm used to watching my servo plasma machine zip around at 2000-2500ipm.

[Don Clement]

Thanks for the opinions guys! Keep them coming.

I guess what I keep getting hung up on are the 90ipm rapid rates. I'm used to watching my servo plasma machine zip around at 2000-2500ipm.

Other than rapids when not machining does the 2K-2.5Kipm rapids really help when actually machining metal with an end mill?

[super95awd]

Nope! With such a small work envelope, I suppose the rapids shouldn't matter much.

[RTP_Burnsville]

The only Haas advantage I see are ATC (for the MM) and the servo motors. Other than that I don't think that the extra $10k are worth it.

Don't forget the CAT40 spindle, some models with faster spindle RPM, more mass, better controller, rigid tapping, etc.. ATC could easily pay for itself if parts require several tools.

Robert

[Don Clement]

Don't forget that SprutCAM when ordered with a Tormach is ~$1K that's about $9K less than the equivalently featured MasterCAM. Also There is a discount for Solidworks when buying a Tormach.

Don

[super95awd]

CAD software is not a problem. I already extensively use AutoCAD. As for CAM, I could still use Sprutcam and was planning on it!

[tikka308]

A lot of folks have asked and debated this - take a look at past threads. The HAAS is a totally different animal. Usually 3 phase power, needs professionally leveled and replacement parts are expensive and reliant on a good HFO. Experience may mitigate these concerns/costs, but if you're asking these questions, then you aren't experienced.

My view on the Tormach is if/when I get to a point where I've truly outgrown it and I need a machine with ATC, Cat40, rapids, etc, then the tormach will either 1) have decent resale value or 2) be a great second-op machine and/or dedicated R&D machine.

[super95awd]

You are correct that I am not experienced in the machining world. I am, however, an experienced fabricator and experienced with CAD and CAM software.

As for your second comment, I have definitely had that same thought before. I feel that the Tormach would be a much better machine to jump into at first, but I would accept the learning curve if it was worth it.

Decisions like this kill me. I've gone back and forth at least 20 times.

[tikka308]

The first $1,500 HFO visit should make the decision easier...

[Don Clement]

CAD software is not a problem. I already extensively use AutoCAD. As for CAM, I could still use Sprutcam and was planning on it!

IMO the cost of CAM software should be factored into the decision to buy a Tormach vs. a used larger machine. SprutCAM purchased with a Tormach is $9K less than buying similar featured MasterCAM. BTW how much more are CAT40 holders over a typical TTS holder? I have over 30 TTS holders and I believe the $$ difference for me is significant.

Don

[Tarster]

I have to tell you my machine shop I work for just bought the pcnc1100 and having a race doing the same part and other than the few rapids the machines take nearly the same cuts with the same precision. The tormach falls behind a machine like a Hoss only in the rapids factor. In our shop the tormach was only 10 to 30 seconds slower than our atrump cnc capable of 200ipm rapids. I would go with a tormach any day over a Hoss machine. Plus I'm pretty sure you would have to but a fanuc control to go with the Hoss... I personally don't enjoy working on fanuc controls.
That's just my opinion

[levelzero]

Judging by your username you are planning to make automotive parts (beyond what you are doing now), which is what I do. LOL I'd also be willing to bet you are into DSM's.

A bigger machine is always nice and there are always times when you wish you had one, but the Tormach is affordable, easy to use, easy to repair and cost effective to upgrade.

It's not ideal for production work, but it can do it and let you be competitive. It's relatively low purchase price frees up capital for more tooling, vices or even other tools.

The lower cost also means you don't have to worry as much about having it earn it's keep right away. This is very important while you learn to design/build fixtures and how to cut parts larger then your work envelope....like a 4g63 intake flange, the damn things are an inch too big for my early machine. I believe the current ones can actually do it in one set up as they have a bit more x travel.

One thing I will strongly recommend is build your own stand. You have the welding skills so it'll be easy and that way you can have the machine fully enclosed which is great for keeping the shop slightly less dirty ..... but that might just be me.

[MichaelHenry]

Nope! With such a small work envelope, I suppose the rapids shouldn't matter much.

I use SprutCAM, which has a feature that estimates job time, and ran a few options for the standard rapid speed (65 ipm on my older Series I mill) and 1,000 ipm as some of the big boys seem to use. The faster rapid speed reduced job time by 10 % or less on the test cases I used, all of which had a work envelope of around 6x12x0.5".

If rapid speed is truly a concern you might want to try a similar experiment with the CAM solution of your choice, using a trial version if you don't already own one.

Mike