[CadRhino]

Let’s say the next Tormach mill is going big and will be more of an entry level ‘professional’ Machine.
What would be on your wish list?
Here is my first stab;
- linear ways
- servo motors
- 10(?) HP
- greater y travel
- around $20k or so depending on features
- refined 15-tool ATC
-integrated probe
- option for through the spindle coolant
- dead nuts reliability and accuracy to .0002

[IMT]

A few years ago when they started hinting about something new coming out I was hoping it would be a bigger machine (my first thought on name was also 2200). I was disappointed to when it ended up being the 440.
For a 2200 my wishlist would be:
- 30x16 XY travel
- More reliable ATC
- Optional Servo motors - >500in/min rapids, > 250in/min cutting
- Optional 10K rpm 10hp BT30 spindle that works with the ATC

I think this would fit nicely in the gap between a $19K 1100 (w/ enclosure and ATC) and a $32K TM-1P.

[CadRhino]

Good adds



QUOTE=IMT;2145520]A few years ago when they started hinting about something new coming out I was hoping it would be a bigger machine (my first thought on name was also 2200). I was disappointed to when it ended up being the 440.
For a 2200 my wishlist would be:
- 30x16 XY travel
- More reliable ATC
- Optional Servo motors - >500in/min rapids, > 250in/min cutting
- Optional 10K rpm 10hp BT30 spindle that works with the ATC[/QUOTE]

[jeffrey001]

10 HP requires 3 phases.

Jeff

[IMT]

10 HP requires 3 phases.

Jeff

Rotary phase converter. No problem at 10 hp.
Maybe do a 7HP option that runs on single phase.

[jeffrey001]

Rotary phase converter. No problem at 10 hp.
Maybe do a 7HP option that runs on single phase.

Possible, I have a HAAS 7HP running on single phase, but not sure if it is really 7HP, maybe it's true with 3 phases.

Jeff

[Steve Seebold]

Rotary phase converter. No problem at 10 hp.
Maybe do a 7HP option that runs on single phase.

The Haas tool room mills and the Mini Mills will run on single phase power.

[Steve Seebold]

10 HP requires 3 phases.

Jeff

I had a Haas TM1 that was 7.5 horsepower and ran on single phase power.

Only problem was, on single phase power, you lose about 40% of the horsepower. That would still have given me 4.5 horsepower instead of 1.5.

I’ve said before, if I had it to do over again, I would have taken some of the money I got when I sold my FADAL, paid off my Haas and brought it home.

I

[jeffrey001]

I had a Haas TM1 that was 7.5 horsepower and ran on single phase power.

Only problem was, on single phase power, you lose about 40% of the horsepower. That would still have given me 4.5 horsepower instead of 1.5.

I’ve said before, if I had it to do over again, I would have taken some of the money I got when I sold my FADAL, paid off my Haas and brought it home.

I

I have a TM1-P with full enclosure running on single phase too.

It would cost me around $8000.00 to have 3 phases in the shop, now I'm connected to the house 200 AMP panel. Electric bill is about 1/5 of what I would pay if I had 3 phases.

Price for industrial use and price for home use is probably that, 5 times more for industrial use.

[mountaindew]

I have a TM1-P with full enclosure running on single phase too.

It would cost me around $8000.00 to have 3 phases in the shop, now I'm connected to the house 200 AMP panel. Electric bill is about 1/5 of what I would pay if I had 3 phases.

Price for industrial use and price for home use is probably that, 5 times more for industrial use.

In this area 3 phase power = demand reading power!
Demand reading power means the highest power amount used in one day during a 30 day period is the amount your charged by, or times 30 days. In short it means if you run your tools for 1 day you will get charged for that one day x 30 days even if you never turned on another tool for any other 29 days that billing period.

[AUSTINMACHINING]

In this area 3 phase power = demand reading power!
Demand reading power means the highest power amount used in one day during a 30 day period is the amount your charged by, or times 30 days. In short it means if you run your tools for 1 day you will get charged for that one day x 30 days even if you never turned on another tool for any other 29 days that billing period.

Yep, I just met with the city of Austin electric dept. And they pretty much said the exact same thing regarding commercial rates. And 3 phase hookup is $30k here. Ouch.

[mountaindew]

A machine manufactured with those tolerances, and power, is going to be expensive, now way around it. As for design, RD suggested a horizontal format mill with a vertical tomb stone a while back that sounded useful. All the swarf falls down and the user could load material on one side while machine mills on other side.
Anyway when the x,y,z axis of the average 10 hp machine can ninja speed rapid move my 3k lb JEEP thru the wall it sets next to without stalling sounds very cool and expensive.
That said the one thing I dislike about my 1100 mill the most is way oil mess.

[footpetaljones]

A machine manufactured with those tolerances, and power, is going to be expensive, now way around it. As for design, RD suggested a horizontal format mill with a vertical tomb stone a while back that sounded useful. All the swarf falls down and the user could load material on one side while machine mills on other side.

That would require a pallet changer. Pallet changers are expensive.

[mountaindew]

That would require a pallet changer. Pallet changers are expensive.

A vertical tomb stone that rotates 180 degrees so one side is in position for the user to clamp material onto while the other side is running operations could be used either way. I have seen tomb stones with multiple vise type fixtures mounted in series on 2 sides or more. Pallets would work also but I was thinking pallet systems were for flat format mills and vertical tomb stone fixtures were different. and more for a horizontal format z tool engagement.
What made me think of that, was the other day I was watching a utube video and the operator of the horizontal mill was riding up and down next to the tool in an enclosed elevator The bed was about 12 ft dia fixture plate. The mill head was about 8ft sq and 20 ft tall with an enclosed elevator for the operator to observe the tool.

[jeffrey001]

A vertical tomb stone that rotates 180 degrees so one side is in position for the user to clamp material onto while the other side is running operations could be used either way. I have seen tomb stones with multiple vise type fixtures mounted in series on 2 sides or more. Pallets would work also but I was thinking pallet systems were for flat format mills and vertical tomb stone fixtures were different. and more for a horizontal format z tool engagement.
What made me think of that, was the other day I was watching a utube video and the operator of the horizontal mill was riding up and down next to the tool in an enclosed elevator The bed was about 12 ft dia fixture plate. The mill head was about 8ft sq and 20 ft tall with an enclosed elevator for the operator to observe the tool.

This is a really big safety issue
Jeff

[R.DesJardin]

A vertical tomb stone that rotates 180 degrees so one side is in position for the user to clamp material onto while the other side is running operations could be used either way. I have seen tomb stones with multiple vise type fixtures mounted in series on 2 sides or more........

I wouldn't want to work on it as it runs, but being able to setup parts on 4 side of the tombstone, machine on parts on three sides of it and not have a pallet changer seems sensible. First HMC I saw only had two tombstones, and it was a big Mori. So a PCNC H2200 could easily be worthwhile with one rotating tombstone.

[AUSTINMACHINING]

Tormach is already in their market. A machine that will fit in most garages and run on single phase power. Otherwise, there are many used, true VMC machines for 15-20K that could turn a Tormach into chips quickly. Not to knock the "garage machines", I have one that runs daily, but I don't see how they could compete in a market that already exists without costing $$$. Brother, Hurco, Fanuc,Sharp,Doosan etc. have machines ~ 6000lb range BT30 etc. that are blazing fast. Holding .0002" accuracy with good geometric tolerances would require materials that would push them into the price range as these other industrial grade machines.

[CadRhino]

Good points but those machines (brother, sharp) are going to cost upwards of 70-80k

QUOTE=AUSTINMACHINING;2146020]Tormach is already in their market. A machine that will fit in most garages and run on single phase power. Otherwise, there are many used, true VMC machines for 15-20K that could turn a Tormach into chips quickly. Not to knock the "garage machines", I have one that runs daily, but I don't see how they could compete in a market that already exists without costing $$$. Brother, Hurco, Fanuc,Sharp,Doosan etc. have machines ~ 6000lb range BT30 etc. that are blazing fast. Holding .0002" accuracy with good geometric tolerances would require materials that would push them into the price range as these other industrial grade machines.[/QUOTE]

[AUSTINMACHINING]

Good points but those machines (brother, sharp) are going to cost upwards of 70-80k

QUOTE=AUSTINMACHINING;2146020]Tormach is already in their market. A machine that will fit in most garages and run on single phase power. Otherwise, there are many used, true VMC machines for 15-20K that could turn a Tormach into chips quickly. Not to knock the "garage machines", I have one that runs daily, but I don't see how they could compete in a market that already exists without costing $$$. Brother, Hurco, Fanuc,Sharp,Doosan etc. have machines ~ 6000lb range BT30 etc. that are blazing fast. Holding .0002" accuracy with good geometric tolerances would require materials that would push them into the price range as these other industrial grade machines.

[/QUOTE]


Ya, that was kind of my point. To get bigger with that accuracy, I'm guessing they would have to leave China and source the iron from Taiwan or Korea. Along with better screws/linear guides, control, twin arm tool changer, enclosure etc. By then, they are approaching costs of other Mfr's. I have always been amazed at the cost of a HAAS mini mill. It cost more than some of their larger machines. My Novakon Torus pro has a larger work envelope. The New Hurco VM5I looks like an awesome little machine,tiny footprint etc., and from what I've gathered,. is around the $35-40k range.

[SCzEngrgGroup]

A machine like you suggest would have Tormach competing head-to-head with the "big boys", like Haas. They'd never survive in that market - they don't have the support infrastructure that is REQUIRED to break into that market. If they built that infrastructure, they'd have to charge as much as Haas does. What would be their "value add" that would make them a viable competitor against the companies that have been in that market for decades? One of the keys to a successful business is understanding who your customer is, and what you can, and cannot, do.

Regards,
Ray L.