[MechanoMan]

I just got a CNC mill setup from deepgroove on eBay, with the 280oz steppers... well, price was ok.

I've had time to set it up and run tests and such and I keep having trouble with the Z-axis binding up on the last few inches. It's unable to lift consistently at rates >10ipm even with low acceleration values. I even saw it unable to drop consistently early on but that seems to have gone away. Everything is nicely oiled. I switched the stepper to another axis on the driver and the problem is unchanged when jogged at the same speeds.

I had this question over whether it was binding in the leadscrew or the slide. I ended up unscrewing the pillowblock/motor mount from up top so I could just manually lift and lower it, the leadscrew and motor lift with the headstock. I do think I feel binding there consistent with the known problem area. So, it's the slide not the leadscrew. And being only on the bottom end of the travel I think I can rule out a problem with the headstock.

This problem appears to be a poor tolerance on ONE part of the slide. But I can't find one. I ran the axis all the way up which should have exposed the prob. I get 1.254" on the center rectangle the brass gibs deal with. I locked the caliper there and slid it down... it does not bind. I checked the sides both are 0.352" and again I locked the caliper and it does not encounter resistance the rest of the way down. Which leaves the possibility of the side edges which are not machined as contact surfaces, so contact seems unlikely and I see no marking- and overall bending or torsion of slide seems like my last possibility which frankly sounds the most plausible but I have no way to measure it.

Or... wait, when I tested that I didn't really try hard at measuring to the very inside corner on either side of the center rectangle. Are the surfaces used all the way into the corner or does the headstock's mating surface chamfer away from it?

I did set a program to run the axis up and down over this problem area at the fastest it would still work consistently, which was still quite slow (2-6 ipm), with hopes of "breaking it in". It does not seem to have had any effect, at least not in a couple of hours.

I saw the prior thread:
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showth...535#post171535

And most important Nick Carter's gib adjustment instructions:
http://www.cartertools.com/millset.html

So I am considering adjusting the gib. But here's my question: Is this wise? The gib sets the loading all up and down the travel. It's only too tight at one point and it would be too loose everywhere else. Nor have I even determined if this is the problem, the calipers don't think it is. That prior thread has "Andy Fritz" (not a current forum user) saying he tried the gib adjustment and it never really fixed things, while "az7733" (also not a current user) said he had this problem and fixed it by getting a replacement axis from TaigTools. So it almost sounds like a waste of time and might just make things worse??

[cartertool]

Several things.
Make sure the gib isn't loose - it can slide back and forth and bind selectively.
Make sure the shoes that hold it on the slide front/back are adjusted correctly.
Use way lube! Or at least oil. Are the slides lubed now?

[kbillan]

I too bought a new Taig from Deepgroove-- last month.


It was a big investment for me... especially around the holidays. I bought it all- too. Software, fixture plate, collet set..etc....

He doesnt provide ANY support at all even though i am having similar problems.


My machine binds up or something.. because it CONSTANTLY looses its reference to home. I just now pulled re melted a block of wax.. let it cool.. chucked it up on the table.. trued it.. cut it to size and then ran a program only to come back down after dinner to see it lost home and was WAY off.

Yet, last night i ran a part of and it came out 99% perfect.

This is becoming much more trouble than it is worth and it is getting discouraging.


I bought the mill, all the tooling, a brand new PC.. and it doesnt even work properly... its making me nutz.

(little frustrated)

[Stepper Monkey]

Taigs can be fiddly to set up the Z axis the first time, especially if the motors don't have enough oomph. The Xylotex drivers Deepgroove uses just can't kick the Z around hard enough to work unless the Z is tuned just right. Don't worry though, once you get it right, it's right.
First thing is to make sure the gib doesn't move up and down at all, this will cause intermittent jamming as it is tapered and can cam into locking up on you, but then freely move the other direction.
If that isn't it, check the two side plates that clamp to the way. push the motor fore and aft and see if the Z carriage moves at all. Easy way to adjust this is to remove the motor to get some weight off of it, then loosen the two allen screws. Clamp these and the carriage together tightly, as firmly as you can with hand pressure alone, then tighten the allen screws. This will remove any tilting - if they are too loose the carriage tilts forward and causes binding as all the weight is now only distributed to the forward bottom edge and rear top edge of the bearing sufaces, not evenly distributed as it needs to be. That is a surefire fail if it's happening. Same thing if you let it tilt to either side. Once you figure it out it will come naturally, but I remember my first try with a Xylotex and a Taig left me frustrated too!

It also helps to get a motor that isn't such a pig, both for accel speeds and not having it bind up with all that weight cantileved out there, but that is for a later time. Right now you should be able to get it working fine stock.

Make sure you lube the screw (I like teflon dry lube) and make sure it is aligned and not binding from angular misalignment or anything like that.

[cnccustom]

I too bought a new Taig from Deepgroove-- last month.


It was a big investment for me... especially around the holidays. I bought it all- too. Software, fixture plate, collet set..etc....

He doesnt provide ANY support at all even though i am having similar problems.


My machine binds up or something.. because it CONSTANTLY looses its reference to home. I just now pulled re melted a block of wax.. let it cool.. chucked it up on the table.. trued it.. cut it to size and then ran a program only to come back down after dinner to see it lost home and was WAY off.

Yet, last night i ran a part of and it came out 99% perfect.

This is becoming much more trouble than it is worth and it is getting discouraging.


I bought the mill, all the tooling, a brand new PC.. and it doesnt even work properly... its making me nutz.

(little frustrated)

If you Really want a good setup....sell that driver box and steppers on ebay and buy a Gecko 540 setup with steppers......

Your disapointment will be gone.........

Someone Really needs to offer a Gecko setup with a Taig so that the Taig can get the reviews it Deserves......Shouldn't cost but $300-$400 more but you will have much better results

[MechanoMan]

StepperMonkey: Deepgroove referred to it as "Allegro" chips, never was "Xylotex" mentioned, nor does it say "Xylotex" anywhere on the board. Is this still a Xylotex? The chip number was never mentioned and they glued heatsinks to the chips so I can't identify them. It's a 24v 4.5A power supply, which is a pity since it looks like most of the Allegros are rated for 35v.

I'm a pretty heavy circuits guy and figured I'd be designing something neat to replace this eventually anyways. So I wasn't especially worried.

Well, I did the gib thing and I think that's it!
I was worried I didn't know what I was looking for as I followed the cartertools instructions, and began dropping the gib by loosening the bottom and tightening the top. But eventually I saw the mating surface on the opposite side of the brass gib's mating surface move. That was like 3 turns down too so it was way off. I tightened until they kissed, snugged the screws back up onto the gib. (now I guess I gotta check the other gibs)

I can get 30 ipm max up or down now, compared to 40ipm or so max on the horizontal but there's a lot of weight on Z. 32ipm will stick at some point on the axis. It still jams near the very bottom before the chuck touches the table at anything except the slowest rates. I don't quite get why, but have stopped caring, no bit I have is shorter than 1" or so, and I'm adding a matrix table soon that will raise to minimum work level another 1/2" too, so it's not even going to be used in this area ever. Does the leadscrew have expanding threads or something to keep you from running the axis off the screw if the Y moves the table out from under it? Maybe I'm observing that feature.

kbillan: Have patience, and accept there's a learning curve involved. One thing I missed is Mach3 sets the keyboard Jog speed to like 20% of max by default (hit TAB to pull up the menu). So you could set your limit in Motor Tuning 5x too high by accident if you go changing the limit and slow-jogging to see when it starts to screech as it loses steps. The actual running speed is set by either the gcode program, or Mach3 will ignore the number in the code if it exceeds the rate in Motor Tuning. So a bad limit can show up when you run gcode. What did you specify for max speed and acceleration?

But, given how far off this was, I don't think DeepGroove adjusts these before sending them out. So yours is probably the same situation.
Do you know which axis was losing steps?
Be careful- you can easily crash the tool into the table if it loses steps trying to raise the Z. It'll cut the table and/or break the bit.

[bullseye]

Xylotex is an allegro chip

[jalessi]

MechanoMan,

You are right Deepgroove does not state who makes the stepper drive they provide with the mill, however Xylotex is the only stepper driver manufacture they have a link for on there Website.

http://www.deepgroove1.com/links.htm

Deepgroove's Website makes reference to a 28 volt power supply, using a 35 volt power supply may be on the edge of causing damage if the stepper generates backdrive voltage.

The G251 drive by Gecko would really make a giant difference in your machines performance.

I think they are still on sale for about $50.00 each, three axis will run only $150.00

Don't forget a 48 volt power supply to go along with it.

Jeff...

[Stepper Monkey]

Someone Really needs to offer a Gecko setup with a Taig so that the Taig can get the reviews it Deserves......Shouldn't cost but $300-$400 more but you will have much better results

I think I am finally just going to give up and do that. No one else is! We have to give advice for so many of these systems by crap sellers that just aren't supported or properly setup. Been trying to avoid it for awhile, and I wanted to avoid competing with awesome and conscientious sellers like Nick, but I think now I have a different enough niche and price point to fill and it just makes too much sense.

I am now an official stocking Taig dealer. I buy enough of thier stuff and service enough of thier machines for people that it was long overdue! I will be speaking with Mariss at Gecko this week about stocking 540's. Also have a supplier of 3/4 Horse HF spindles and VFD's, so I can offer it already set up that way for those people that need them. For those that don't or can't afford them, I am planning on supplying my basic units with lighter DC motors and speed control interface boards in place of that pig of a stock AC motor. Planning on stretching the Y movement slightly too, and a few other simple tweaks that just generally should be done to all of them.
Getting them set up right before they go out will save a lot of headache and answering the same questions every week.

I am pretty much retired, so I don't exactly need this to be a full-time thing, so I am taking it slow for now. Don't even know how much I'll charge. It won't be the cheapest as I am adding a lot of pricey hardware, but it still likely won't anything more than some of the overpriced stock setups I see being offered out there with thinly disguised Allegro drivers and cheap high inductance motors. Certainly a big step up from a base unit and a lot cheaper than a Minitech. Seems to be a market hole there in the middle ground.
Still fiddling with trying to fit the Kerk A/B nuts, but I don't know if I'll offer that, with 10 tpi screws, like my personal unit has. Things like that and writing a clear, concise owners manual, since not even Taig has one to offer are going to take some time. I am working on it though, you aren't the first person to mention it!

[TOTALLYRC]

Someone Really needs to offer a Gecko setup with a Taig so that the Taig can get the reviews it Deserves......Shouldn't cost but $300-$400 more but you will have much better results

I think I am finally just going to give up and do that. No one else is! We have to give advice for so many of these systems by crap sellers that just aren't supported or properly setup. Been trying to avoid it for awhile, and I wanted to avoid competing with awesome and conscientious sellers like Nick, but I think now I have a different enough niche and price point to fill and it just makes too much sense.

I am now an official stocking Taig dealer. I buy enough of thier stuff and service enough of thier machines for people that it was long overdue! I will be speaking with Mariss at Gecko this week about stocking 540's. Also have a supplier of 3/4 Horse HF spindles and VFD's, so I can offer it already set up that way for those people that need them. For those that don't or can't afford them, I am planning on supplying my basic units with lighter DC motors and speed control interface boards in place of that pig of a stock AC motor. Planning on stretching the Y movement slightly too, and a few other simple tweaks that just generally should be done to all of them.
Getting them set up right before they go out will save a lot of headache and answering the same questions every week.

I am pretty much retired, so I don't exactly need this to be a full-time thing, so I am taking it slow for now. Don't even know how much I'll charge. It won't be the cheapest as I am adding a lot of pricey hardware, but it still likely won't anything more than some of the overpriced stock setups I see being offered out there with thinly disguised Allegro drivers and cheap high inductance motors. Certainly a big step up from a base unit and a lot cheaper than a Minitech. Seems to be a market hole there in the middle ground.
Still fiddling with trying to fit the Kerk A/B nuts, but I don't know if I'll offer that, with 10 tpi screws, like my personal unit has. Things like that and writing a clear, concise owners manual, since not even Taig has one to offer are going to take some time. I am working on it though, you aren't the first person to mention it!

If we can convince the newbies that the extra money that you will charge is worth double the actual price difference, then you will have to come out of retirement to sell these things.


I have given thought to do what you are discussing, but it is just not possible for my at this time.

Best of luck and may you make a bunch of people happy.


Mike

[Fixittt]

one other thing about the Xylotex type of drivers is the bad bad bad issue with resonance, This will cause the steppers to loose steps and "LOOSE HOME" position unless delt with.
You have basically 2 options, run the machine within tolerances of the resonance or mechanically cancel it out.

[kbillan]

one other thing about the Xylotex type of drivers is the bad bad bad issue with resonance, This will cause the steppers to loose steps and "LOOSE HOME" position unless delt with.
You have basically 2 options, run the machine within tolerances of the resonance or mechanically cancel it out.

Haha.. okay- i dont know what this means.


Frustration/Learning curve... see this shouldnt even be relevant. The money spent-- i should be able to learn the little nuances (importing correct file, figuring out tool changes without loosing Z home, BS like that) i shouldnt have to mess with the thing over and over only to get a good result once and then crap the next. Im all for a puzzle- but rather than going the puzzle route (buying a manual machine and converting it) i bought a turn key.

I dont mean to *****.. but add to the fact that this clown has my money and i have a pile of parts i know relatively nothing about... it makes me angry. I just want to have a machine that works properly.



I took the Y apart last night again. When i first got the machine- out of the box- when you turned the Y axis by hand.. the screw would turn a good 2 hours before the table would move. This seems way off to me. So i tightened the brass nut on the bottom of the table. Last night, i noticed it was back (slop).. i tightened it up again. I can also tell you that the Y only goes to about 1/2" from the edge of the surface it slides on. Others say you can extend the travel.. HA.. i cant get the damn thing to use what it has now...

I am going to tear down the other axes today.. see whats doing with them.. I would really just like this nightmare to end.

So-- Gecko... what does one think it would cost to convert this over to that. Lead me to the water.. and ill suck it down like cocacola... AS LONG as this is the end of the nightmare i would consider it money well spent.


thanks for listening LOL..

[MechanoMan]

What speed will the G251 drive on the X, Y, and Z?

[MechanoMan]

Im all for a puzzle- but rather than going the puzzle route (buying a manual machine and converting it) i bought a turn key.

Well IMHO deepgroove was exaggerating there. Realistically, mills don't just come running out-of-the-box and stay running perfectly adjustment-free.

I dont mean to *****.. but add to the fact that this clown has my money and i have a pile of parts i know relatively nothing about... it makes me angry. I just want to have a machine that works properly.

Yeah I share your pain. I'm looking at a pile of parts for the 4th axis and I'm not sure they're even all here.

I took the Y apart last night again. When i first got the machine- out of the box- when you turned the Y axis by hand.. the screw would turn a good 2 hours before the table would move. This seems way off to me. So i tightened the brass nut on the bottom of the table. Last night, i noticed it was back (slop).. i tightened it up again. I can also tell you that the Y only goes to about 1/2" from the edge of the surface it slides on. Others say you can extend the travel.. HA.. i cant get the damn thing to use what it has now...

OK so you're talking backlash, right? How much backlash? Maybe it's just your use of hyperbole but "a good 2 hours" would indicate whatever problem you have could be too high to have anything to do with backlash. There's a theoretical maximum to backlash, I don't know what it is but obviously much less than 1 turn.

AFAIK deepgroove doesn't even have anything to do with making the Taig he just resells them. If that's the case this is not a deepgroove problem but a Taig problem.
It doesn't sound like you've researched that backlash adjustment. Look at: http://www.cartertools.com/nutback.html Adjusting it wrong can make things worse.

[TOTALLYRC]

What speed will the G251 drive on the X, Y, and Z?

With the 26? motors that you have and the 20tpi leadscrews that are stock on the Taig, a lot faster than they go now, even with the power supply that it comes with.

If you go to a 48-50v power supply, 75-100 ipm rapids wouldn't be out of the question. I have read in another thread that they would go faster than that, but the person limited it so as not to wear out the ways too quickly. Your milage may vary.

Anything above 50 ipm will be fabulous as you can go full x travel in under 15 seconds.

My Taig with 425 oz/in and the 28v power maxes at 10 ipm making it a real pain to use, but it has done some nice work, I just don't watch it anymore, I set it and forget it so to speak.

The nice things about the Geckos are mid band resonance compensation so that the motor will not buzz and just sit there in a stalled condition way before it should stall. And 2, they will morph from micro step to full step on the fly, meaning that you will get the max torque possible at higher speeds.


Mike

[kbillan]

Well IMHO deepgroove was exaggerating there. Realistically, mills don't just come running out-of-the-box and stay running perfectly adjustment-free.

Yeah I share your pain. I'm looking at a pile of parts for the 4th axis and I'm not sure they're even all here.

OK so you're talking backlash, right? How much backlash? Maybe it's just your use of hyperbole but "a good 2 hours" would indicate whatever problem you have could be too high to have anything to do with backlash. There's a theoretical maximum to backlash, I don't know what it is but obviously much less than 1 turn.

AFAIK deepgroove doesn't even have anything to do with making the Taig he just resells them. If that's the case this is not a deepgroove problem but a Taig problem.
It doesn't sound like you've researched that backlash adjustment. Look at: http://www.cartertools.com/nutback.html Adjusting it wrong can make things worse.

I have no problem with adjusting the thing from time to time. I mean, it has moving parts and eventually, parts wear. This is all fine.

What burns me is that I cant just email my sales man and say-- hey-- were binding up here... can you tell me where im going wrong? Instead-- the only email i got from him pointed me to his site videos-- which.. LOL>.. yah.. not much info there. It did show me how to install mach 3 though... (no emoticon for sarcasm)

anyway-- As far as that carter link goes.. i have read through most of the stuff pertaining to the mill. (i dont have the lathe) That backlash thing is good info-- but i had figured that much out on my own. (well, on the Y-- the X seems to operate fine) My only gripe is that it says to measure the backlash with an indicator but it doesnt tell you to what tolerance?

This morning-- i tore into it again. I messed with the Z first- and as diagnosed.. it was loose... I fixed that and it seems to run fine now in Z. Although i ran the machine at about 35 IPM and it stalled.. FINE>> as long as i can get 20 out of it..

For the Y.. i tightened the nut up and it really bound.. i loosened off the Gib.. tightened it back up... still bound.. It binds at the last inch of travel in Negative Y (relative to table location-- as in table closest to you).. It was my hypothesis that the bearing plate (i think its the bearing plate) was machined wrong and the screw was slightly above where it needed to be. I took a dremel and hogged the screw holes so it could move up and down a few thousandths... and now it seems to have full travel. And when you turn the screw very small amounts, the table moves. As i think it should.. or at least.. they same way the X does.

I ran a new part.. in the remelted wax... and of course i forgot to un check ignore tool change and now it was about 3/4 complete... so now its melting down.. again... and in 3 or 4 hours i can fire it up again.


Thanks for listening. I hate needing help with this stuff... I mean, im used to just being able to do things..

[Stepper Monkey]

Frustration/Learning curve... see this shouldnt even be relevant. The money spent-- i should be able to learn the little nuances (importing correct file, figuring out tool changes without loosing Z home, BS like that) i shouldnt have to mess with the thing over and over only to get a good result once and then crap the next. Im all for a puzzle- but rather than going the puzzle route (buying a manual machine and converting it) i bought a turn key.

I dont mean to *****.. but add to the fact that this clown has my money and i have a pile of parts i know relatively nothing about... it makes me angry. I just want to have a machine that works properly.

There is always going to be some assembly and tweaking aspect, but if you are buying "turnkey", someone should take the time to set up, test, and adjust the machine and include some simple instructions!
As you have discovered, most just drop ship parts from different suppliers, and that's the same thing as just buying the parts yourself and doing your own conversion anyway.

What speed will the G251 drive on the X, Y, and Z?

I need to fully test that out, but I am assuming it will be impressive. I have not installed the new Geckos on mine yet, as I have much older commercial drivers on them both right now.
The ones I am using have roughly the same specs as the Geckos where power and voltage are concerned, and they cut at 50+ ipm. I am assuming the Geckos will do slightly better actually, as a number of technical advancements incorporated into the 250/251/540's were unavailable when my current units were built.

the screw would turn a good 2 hours before the table would move. This seems way off to me. So i tightened the brass nut on the bottom of the table. Last night, i noticed it was back (slop).. i tightened it up again. I can also tell you that the Y only goes to about 1/2" from the edge of the surface it slides on. Others say you can extend the travel.. HA.. i cant get the damn thing to use what it has now...

If you could post some pics, we may be able to offer some help. This is actually something I haven't run into before, as Taig is usually pretty good about delivering units with the nuts fairly well adjusted (under 3-4 thou anyway). They can certainly always be tuned a little better by hand with a bit of time and TLC, but all the ones I've unpacked have been functional and at least already within spitting distance of perfectly tuned.
The only Y travel hindrance that comes with them stock is if they put too long of a screw in the center of the front rubber way cover (a flathead that doesn't look like it should be there). Even that only cuts about a half inch of travel. I don't know why they still put them in too long, but sometimes they do, just yank it and toss it, it's unnecessary.
I don't know what could be cutting the Y travel down or interfering with it that severely, again, you'll have to post pics.

Hope we can help!

[kbillan]

I think what caused it was that i tightened the nut on the screw... it seems as if the screw is not in the right place when the bearing plate is bolted up.. the closer it gets to the bearing plate-- the more relevant tis becomes, until it binds.

But if i run it loose, like i said-- 2 hours before you could feel the threads engage and move the table.

when i say 2 hours.. i mean, like on a clock.. 2 hours.. 2 O' Clock... from 12... thats how far the screw turned before the table moved. The X did not do this.. it was instant movement when the screw turned.. as it should be to expect any amount of precision.

Personally-- im not building watch movements.. it doesnt have to be even .001 accurate... im making wax molds of costume pieces... LOL... no big deal.

Eventually, i will want to do some precises stuff in aluminum, but that will likely be the extent of my needs...

what do you need pics of? id be happy to post them.

For now, i think i have it covered.. knock on wood... or wax.. for that matter... but we will see. Wax is in the oven and ill pull it out in about 20 min.. then we are waiting for it to cool.


Oh yah,, anyone doing the remelting of wax, or planning on it. Dont bother putting the wax on the table if it is not at or very near the room your in temp... i put piece on that was still warm to the touch the other day. This stuff shrinks SO much and within 3 passes, it was loose on the table.. LOL.

sorry, if that was known.. nobody told me


edit** i didnt see that you replied to 3 or 4 different statements----

Yes, 100% agreement on the manual, and setting up. Or even just the manual. I was sent an exploded view of the machine and a parts list. Thats it. The rest i got from Cartertool.. and common sense. I used NO gauges.. NO caliper.... I eyeballed it. Again, im making WAX.. LOL... when i get to the point where I NEED the precision-- i shouldnt have a problem finding it. Until then, please.. machine.. just do what my drawing says.. LMAO..

[Stepper Monkey]

I think what caused it was that i tightened the nut on the screw... it seems as if the screw is not in the right place when the bearing plate is bolted up.. the closer it gets to the bearing plate-- the more relevant tis becomes, until it binds.


This makes sense now. Loosen the two little allen screws that attach the Y bearing plate to the machines frame, screw the table forward all the way toward you as far as it can go but not quite touching the plate, then bolt down the bearing plate tightly again. That should center your screw. There may be some misalignment there right now causing it to bind up as it gets closer. Get it centered and it should be fine. This will also require you remove that stupid flathead screw to get the table almost up to the bearing plate.
Simple adjustments, but not so simple to figure out the first time when there are no instructions and nothing works!

[kbillan]

I think what caused it was that i tightened the nut on the screw... it seems as if the screw is not in the right place when the bearing plate is bolted up.. the closer it gets to the bearing plate-- the more relevant tis becomes, until it binds.


This makes sense now. Loosen the two little allen screws that attach the Y bearing plate to the machines frame, screw the table forward all the way toward you as far as it can go but not quite touching the plate, then bolt down the bearing plate tightly again. That should center your screw. There may be some misalignment there right now causing it to bind up as it gets closer. Get it centered and it should be fine. This will also require you remove that stupid flathead screw to get the table almost up to the bearing plate.
Simple adjustments, but not so simple to figure out the first time when there are no instructions and nothing works!

the machine screw is gone already...

and i seem to have it working properly at the moment... we will see tonight when i fire up another part....