[mpikas]

I've been lurking for a while, collecting parts, registered sometime into that lurking (I'm active on a few other machining forums...) but now I'm posting debating if there is a way of changing my attitude/approach.

Original plan:
Gather some cheap parts, slap them together to make small table to learn, make parts for a larger table... I have a tendency to turn things like this into a never ending project- you get it working, tear it apart to improve it, you never have it running when you need it...

New plan (hoping that you guys can point me in the right direction):
Skip the cheap parts, build a setup that can do the kind of stuff that I want from the get go- buy known working stuff (mostly thinking about the electronics/controller/drives...) that pretty much work out of the box (FWIW, I probably have access to better tooling then what most people start with, I have a bridgeport, 10x22 lathe, welders/plasma cutter...).

I'm almost looking for a "DIY CNC in a box" or a "get these motors, this controller, this drive... and you'll have what you need. Basically, I want to try to avoid my typical "spending the next X (I've turned some of these things into projects that took years) of my life building a tool to build stuff that I want to make."

What I'm looking to do with it:
- small to medium size parts, most stuff I would make would fit in my hand, but some stuff gets larger, car parts (say supercharger brackets, flanges...), some prototyping type work for electronics, hobby type stuff, I've even been talked into machining custom guitar body for a friend. 2x4' would cover 99.9% of what I've ever done, but 24x18 or somewhere in that range would take care of 95% of it and be acceptable. Not sure about the Z, but 3-5" travel would be really nice.
- Most of it is aluminum, composites (micarta, delrin), hard woods... a lot of my "prototype" type stuff has been MDF. Dare I dream steel/iron (not necessary, can always drop it on the bridgport or lathe if I really need it and if this puts a realistic setup out of bounds, if it does maybe a second project would be something stronger for that kind of work or cnc'ing my bridgeport or a smaller import mill).

Not sure what other info to add... ideas?

[mcphill]

Contact John at MicroCarve.

Case closed.

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/diy-cn...p_machine.html

[restless1]

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/cnc_wo...ld_friend.html

[louieatienza]

LOL if you have a bridgeport AND a lathe then building a cnc shouldn't be too hard! Heck, why not just CNC the bridgeport and lathe? You'll get a better cut in metal than wth most fiy router designs, except for maybe cutting guitar bodies...

[mpikas]

The bridgeport makes a killer "router" for modifying guitar bodies... I've had a few serious guitar players notice that what I've ended up with is much better than factory (once I actually looked out what the geometry is supposed to be I could get it dead on, and I'm actually surprised how bad some really good guitars are made). I actually really like carbide router bits in the bridgeport for a lot of things, and with the bridgeport you can actually set up to just shave the thickness of the finish... off the surface (but again, originally they don't tend to be that flat so you can get yourself into trouble when you get too cocky).

I'm part way through the MicroCarve thread... I like the design, but I don't see anything that is nearly large enough to do what I want there. Also, the actual design of the table isn't what I'm worried about, but the controls/electronics are, and it seems like he's all about the table design and so far the stuff that I'm worried about is an afterthought, lots of the pictures do not have the motors installed and I haven't seen anything about them.

I'll spend some time on the second thread later.

As far as converting the bridgeport (sorry, for some reason I just don't get the cnc lathe thing for most applications), well, I really like the big manual machine, and I don't want to loose that. I'm not sure that it would be a good candidate either, with the DRO and some care the worn 1960 vintage machine can do some really nice work, I don't see it working well CNC without some tuneup or more likely rebuilding

[vtx1029]

I was in the same place you are. I really want a 4x4 joe's machine but I really don't have the space right now and the time & $$$ I know I'd want to put into getting one going. I looked at what I really want to do right now is make some smaller parts and John's Microcarve machine (link posted above) fit most of my needs. Buying it allows me to dive into the cnc world a lot faster then building a bigger machine. John is a great guy to deal with.
If you go with a microcarve machine just add stepper kit from say 3-Axis CNC Stepper Motor Driver Kits you can get them a ready to run. And you'll be off and running. Or if a bigger machine is a must Fine line has complete kits. Home : Fine Line Automation

[louieatienza]

The bridgeport makes a killer "router" for modifying guitar bodies... I've had a few serious guitar players notice that what I've ended up with is much better than factory (once I actually looked out what the geometry is supposed to be I could get it dead on, and I'm actually surprised how bad some really good guitars are made). I actually really like carbide router bits in the bridgeport for a lot of things, and with the bridgeport you can actually set up to just shave the thickness of the finish... off the surface (but again, originally they don't tend to be that flat so you can get yourself into trouble when you get too cocky).

I'm part way through the MicroCarve thread... I like the design, but I don't see anything that is nearly large enough to do what I want there. Also, the actual design of the table isn't what I'm worried about, but the controls/electronics are, and it seems like he's all about the table design and so far the stuff that I'm worried about is an afterthought, lots of the pictures do not have the motors installed and I haven't seen anything about them.

I'll spend some time on the second thread later.

As far as converting the bridgeport (sorry, for some reason I just don't get the cnc lathe thing for most applications), well, I really like the big manual machine, and I don't want to loose that. I'm not sure that it would be a good candidate either, with the DRO and some care the worn 1960 vintage machine can do some really nice work, I don't see it working well CNC without some tuneup or more likely rebuilding

Well the reasoning for the microcarve design is that you can add whatever electronics you'd like depending on your needs and budget. You can put a cheap hobbycnc kit, or gecko drivers.

I think it's probably too small for what you want to do. My router has a 30 x 24 envelope and I cut mainly guitar parts. The early guitar bodies were rough bandsawed and then pin routered. Believe it or not, Peavey was CNCing guitar bodies as early as the 60s! Onsrud's inverted pin router made it safer, and some guitar shops still use them for bodies and necks. I'm always amazed however, what the CNC can do. What once took me 4 hours prepping and routing and shaping a body now takes under 30 minutes!

I would like to keep my aluminum and wood work separate, as the lubricants I sometime use could ruin a guitar finish. I have to wipe my table down with denatured alcohol ro removev any residue. You could build something like the cnc router parts/fine line automation kit for wood and plastics, and maybe even build or convert an x-y table to CNC for your Bridgeport and manually z (I think a previous issue of Digital Machinist covered that topic) for metal work.. This way you don't have to modify your machine, it's bolt on, bolt off...

[arizonavideo]

I think its the size that is making it tough.

If you go down to about 18"x24" you can run 5/8" ball screws and some smaller steppers and the Gecko G251 drivers and still be under a grand for the whole thing.

You go much bigger and then you want 3/4" screws or racks and larger motors and drivers.
1K or 2K?

[microcarve]

The bridgeport makes a killer "router" for modifying guitar bodies... I've had a few serious guitar players notice that what I've ended up with is much better than factory (once I actually looked out what the geometry is supposed to be I could get it dead on, and I'm actually surprised how bad some really good guitars are made). I actually really like carbide router bits in the bridgeport for a lot of things, and with the bridgeport you can actually set up to just shave the thickness of the finish... off the surface (but again, originally they don't tend to be that flat so you can get yourself into trouble when you get too cocky).

I'm part way through the MicroCarve thread... I like the design, but I don't see anything that is nearly large enough to do what I want there. Also, the actual design of the table isn't what I'm worried about, but the controls/electronics are, and it seems like he's all about the table design and so far the stuff that I'm worried about is an afterthought, lots of the pictures do not have the motors installed and I haven't seen anything about them.

I'll spend some time on the second thread later.

As far as converting the Bridgeport (sorry, for some reason I just don't get the cnc lathe thing for most applications), well, I really like the big manual machine, and I don't want to loose that. I'm not sure that it would be a good candidate either, with the DRO and some care the worn 1960 vintage machine can do some really nice work, I don't see it working well CNC without some tuneup or more likely rebuilding

I'm sure my machines are too small for you...they
won't make a guitar body. Except maybe for Barbie
& her friends...but it'd be a Nice one...

If you want a bolt together kit, the cncrouterparts
kit will be large enough, strong enough, and well
supported...which is important.

Ahren...(cncrouterparts)...has been at this a long
time and knows what works with what. He makes everything
you need available and will explain what it is and why you
need it. Electronics, wires, motors....everything.

You have the Bridgeport and chances are anyone who's
taken the time & trouble to have one of those will
have the Best of the Best tools to easily complete
the cncrouterparts machines.

You can DIY from complete scratch, but you need a design
to begin that $$ journey. The kit I mentioned will get
you there a lot faster, so you can be using a machine
instead of planning a machine.

Myself, I'm just a hobbyist that makes machines for the
fun of it, and I sell them off to make another. There's
little to no profit in what I do, so what I can make is
very limited. I try to make small easily shipped machines
that are good for beginning with cnc in general. There's
a lot of pluses to them, but I stay away from making larger
machines mainly because there are already plenty of
good choices.

For getting all you need in one place....and the all important
support and help with questions you'll surely have...I'd
go with the cncrouterparts kit. There are lots of others
who have them, so help is practically there for you almost
24/7...


PS...I never bothered to cnc my large mill. I like to be able
to feel how things are cutting. You don't have that important
feedback with cnc. It's all programmed in advance and the
machine won't know or care if things are proceeding correctly.
The machine will do as commanded...right or wrong.

Without cnc on my mill, I know if I'm cutting just a little too
deep or the cutter doesn't like the job.

Not as "glamorous" as cnc, but it's quicker and better in
most cases...


John

[vtx1029]

This was also tempting for me but I decided against it.

WALTER 6545 Route Engrave Drill Mill CNC Machine G4 - eBay (item 230599825793 end time Apr-20-11 10:18:10 PDT)

[louieatienza]

This was also tempting for me but I decided against it.

WALTER 6545 Route Engrave Drill Mill CNC Machine G4 - eBay (item 230599825793 end time Apr-20-11 10:18:10 PDT)

I couldn't buy all those materials for that price, let alone build one!

[mcphill]

Let me fill in some background on my suggestion... It sounds like you are an experienced machininst, but the CNC part of machining (or at least he building of the machines) is new to you? It sounds like you want to "start small" to a degree, but a machine capable of making guitar bodies is, in my opinion, much bigger than "small"...

So, my suggestion is to start smaller than you were thinking, and make SURE you want to "go bigger" with a lower cost entry point. For instance, I bought a V90 (John's "first" entry to a commercial CNC machine on a larger scale, I think. The V90 is now sold exclusively by Probotix). I didn't know squat about actually making or using CNC machines when I bought the V90. I got a machine I put together in 4 hours, including a full electronics setup (electronics all pre-built so I couldn't "screw it up"). I just had to "follow directions" to put it together to get it running. Next I had to tackle the computer side, and the software side.

I used SolidWords for CAD, BobCAD for CAM, and run Mach3 to drive the V90. Everything worked "to perfection", but there were many bumps in the road. I tried to use EMC2 on a couple of times and had nothing by headaches. I know other people use it perfectly well, it was not a fit for me. I tried many different CAM program trials, and narrowed down my selection by knowing what I wanted to be able to do (fully 3D parts, not just engraving or 2.5D), and how easily I could "grasp" the interface and get done the things I wanted to be able to do "down the road". Again, all these facets of the decision making process were able to be tested out 100% on the V90, with a minimal outlay of cash, and a very high degree of success/applicability to larger machines.

I got through all that, loved what I saw, and then went "whole hog" by buying a Mikini machine. This EXACT same set of software was fully capable of running the Mikini (CAD, CAM, machine control) - there was zero learning curve to go from the V90 to the Mikini (software wise). Electronics wise, it is also "basically the same" thing, just "grown up". Ditto the tooling. Sure, the machine has way more power, capability, and experience than the V90, but deep down "it's just a router" on steroids...

The VERY last think I would have wanted to do was dump $10k+ in to building a "dream machine", taking years to do it, and then finding it didn't meet my expectations in capability or accuracy. It seems to me there are quite a few examples of people taking this approach, and getting broke and frustrated in the process...

Now that I have a V90 working, and the Mikini, I am starting to collect parts to make a "mammoth" machine for myself. I would never have been successful or even been aware of all the pitfalls of building this machine, without going through the step-by-step learning I have done so far.

My V90 is fully functional at the moment. I bet I could sell it for 90% of what I paid, but I choose to keep it. It is great for doing PCB's, and smaller parts that fit in it's build envelope. If I wanted, I could also sell the V90 base machine only, and put the motors/controls/etc. on to a larger format machine. Just the hardware for that machine would likely cost more than everything I have put in to the V90 so far.

That's my $0.02, use or ignore as you wish. :cheers:

[mpikas]

That's my $0.02, use or ignore as you wish. :cheers:

Believe me you and others posting here have my attention, especially since a few things that you've said here seem to hit on many of my key issues. OTOH, microcut also hit some of what my issue is also

Let me fill in some background on my suggestion... It sounds like you are an experienced machininst, but the CNC part of machining (or at least he building of the machines) is new to you? It sounds like you want to "start small" to a degree, but a machine capable of making guitar bodies is, in my opinion, much bigger than "small"...

yes and no...

I'd go with "experienced home machinist" or "meatball machinist." For a while I did fabrication and custom work for a speed shop, but I have no formal machining experience. IRL I'm an IT guy and work with computers all day, but at times I get pulled into other stuff which can involve prototyping...

Honestly, the guitar body thing was a bit of an aside (I've done a few for friends and my brother, but it's not something that I do regularly), but from lurking that will give people here a better idea of sense of scale then the stuff that I'm more likely to be doing with it.

The VERY last think I would have wanted to do was dump $10k+ in to building a "dream machine", taking years to do it, and then finding it didn't meet my expectations in capability or accuracy. It seems to me there are quite a few examples of people taking this approach, and getting broke and frustrated in the process...

that's exactly what I'm hoping to be saved from.

I'm OK with "starting small" but I'm really afraid that is too small... yea, some of the parts that I've made for things could be made on something that size, but a lot of the stuff that I do gets pretty close to 2' long, and I'd be pretty frustrated with anything too small- I don't see the point in building something that is only good for about 50% or less of the work that I want to do (WRT to car parts, figure intake manifolds, cylinder heads, all sorts of flanges, super chargers... all fit in the 18-22" long range)

Now that I have a V90 working, and the Mikini, I am starting to collect parts to make a "mammoth" machine for myself. I would never have been successful or even been aware of all the pitfalls of building this machine, without going through the step-by-step learning I have done so far.

My V90 is fully functional at the moment. I bet I could sell it for 90% of what I paid, but I choose to keep it. It is great for doing PCB's, and smaller parts that fit in it's build envelope. If I wanted, I could also sell the V90 base machine only, and put the motors/controls/etc. on to a larger format machine. Just the hardware for that machine would likely cost more than everything I have put in to the V90 so far.

heh, at one point I seriously considered diving in and buying a tormach cnc mill and automating a lot of the kind of work that I used to do for the speed shop. I even got as far along as checking with a few of my friends that do assorted other metalwork, blacksmithing (I've got a friend that makes damascus and wants to make 1911's out of it...)... to see if I could pick up enough side work to make it profitable. I came to the conclusion that I could, but I also decided that I want to keep this a hobby rather than a business, so the scale of the CNC setup got rolled back dramatically.

[mpikas]

This was also tempting for me but I decided against it.

WALTER 6545 Route Engrave Drill Mill CNC Machine G4 - eBay (item 230599825793 end time Apr-20-11 10:18:10 PDT)

YOU KNOW... that could almost work, looks to be about the right size, I'm not sure about rigidity for the kind of work I want to do, but I can't seem to wrap my brain around the $699 shipping...

That's a little more than I could really justify for the scale of the current project (it's probably reasonable if I was doing it in pieces, but SWMBO would probably want to see some results for that kind of lump sum spending on a "toy").

Are electronics, motors, drivetrain (screws/belts/whatever), controls, guides... really that expensive? the parts that I'm really worried about. I've got plenty of PC's to ultimatly run the software, and probably enough structural parts to build most of the rest of the "table" without really spending anything, and have the tools (wood and metalworking) to build the structure

I like Microcut's oillite bearing guide setup, and I could machine custom parts to make that work (in other words, keep the tolerances tight), but I'm wondering if that setup could be made rigid enough to do the kind of work that I want to do (I don't know, maybe it is, if it is I'd love to do that because that seems to be a much, MUCH cheaper way of doing it).

Microcut, do you have any input there? Looks like you've made a few machines in the size range that I'm talking about, but you don't seem to like them as much...

[mpikas]

I think its the size that is making it tough.

If you go down to about 18"x24" you can run 5/8" ball screws and some smaller steppers and the Gecko G251 drivers and still be under a grand for the whole thing

I believe that I originally said that that is about the low end of my acceptable range.

What size motors would I be looking at for a machine in that range?

Oh, and it's not that can't build the electronics, for example my current project car is running an ECM that I built and programmed, I just don't want to spend the next 5 years building it...

[ahren]

I'll throw in my $0.02 after microcarve's friendly intro -- thanks John!. If you already have the structural framing, you could easily make a larger machine with our nema 23 rack and pinion drives. Even though our system is normally based on extrusion, lots of people have built machines based on steel frames, which are stiffer and much less expensive in terms of materials. We strive to make components that let people build their machines and start using them quickly -- we've had some customers build whole machines in a weekend.

As to machine size, plenty of Joe's builders are using our Nema 23 electronics and R&P units to run 4' x 4' machines, which is plenty of room for your "guitar-sized" projects . You don't necessarily need monster motors to get a large work area.

To really keep costs down, a multi-start ACME machine can also be quite effective. These can be a bit more finicky to set up, however, as they require more careful alignment of components.

Good luck with whatever you decide, and let me know if we can help you out with parts, advice, or both.

Best regards,

Ahren
CNCRouterParts

[vtx1029]

YOU KNOW... that could almost work, looks to be about the right size, I'm not sure about rigidity for the kind of work I want to do, but I can't seem to wrap my brain around the $699 shipping...

That's a little more than I could really justify for the scale of the current project (it's probably reasonable if I was doing it in pieces, but SWMBO would probably want to see some results for that kind of lump sum spending on a "toy").

Are electronics, motors, drivetrain (screws/belts/whatever), controls, guides... really that expensive? the parts that I'm really worried about. I've got plenty of PC's to ultimatly run the software, and probably enough structural parts to build most of the rest of the "table" without really spending anything, and have the tools (wood and metalworking) to build the structure

I like Microcut's oillite bearing guide setup, and I could machine custom parts to make that work (in other words, keep the tolerances tight), but I'm wondering if that setup could be made rigid enough to do the kind of work that I want to do (I don't know, maybe it is, if it is I'd love to do that because that seems to be a much, MUCH cheaper way of doing it).

Microcut, do you have any input there? Looks like you've made a few machines in the size range that I'm talking about, but you don't seem to like them as much...

I agree on the shipping charges too. I searched for reviews on it but found nothing + a little out of the price range I wanted to spend. If it was 1500 with shipping I would have jumped on it. The beauty of that machine is the spindle IMO (then again I'm also green here as well so don't hold stock in what I think)

I'm also finding out stuff really adds up fast...

I have an easy $1250 in my microcarve A4 build so far not including computer or any software...

[arizonavideo]

The Keling KL23H2100-35-4B is rated at 381 Oz and has a nice low inductance of 2.8MH so at 50V you will get nice top speed with a 5 tpi screw.

What type of tolerances do you want to keep?

[mcphill]

Well it sounds like you have your head on straight, and are looking at this from the right perspective. Good luck in your final choice, and keep us updated!

[mpikas]

Well it sounds like you have your head on straight, and are looking at this from the right perspective. Good luck in your final choice, and keep us updated!

You know, I actually really appreciate this comment. I was debating even posting because I was a bit afraid that I'd inspire the "why is this newbie wasting our time" type responses.

Ahren- I'm Leary of an r&p setup, I get the flexibility WRT to dimensions and even expansion, but I'm a bit worried about rigidity and accuracy if I try to do a lot of metal work.

I spent a good part of the last day going through your site (and a few other linked sites) and have been somewhat hooked on a build thread linked off of your site:
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/diy-cn..._router-2.html
No, it does not have the capacity that I'm looking for, and I'm not that excited about the extrusion construction (_right now_ I'm wondering if I can get the rigidity that I want with multiple layers and structural shapes made of MDF, but most likely will go welded steel, I have a bunch of 3/16" wall 2" and 3" box left over from building my lathe stand, and the extra weight should dampen things for cutting harder materials), but it's inspired some ideas:
- I like the stationary gantry, it can be a heavier/stiffer assembly since less of it moves. It's "comfortable" for me because it's a lot like how my bridgeport works...
- I like the heavy bracing, but the way he did it limits his X axis motion... the obvious answer is to extend the "table" part behind the gantry and put the bracing behind it.
- I've thought about how I use the bridgport, and although I have one of the rarer "extended Y" mills (it has a larger knee with more y axis travel), I rarely use a lot of travel in both directions. I should be able to get along fine with slightly less overall travel (at least in one direction) as long as I have a design that will allow me to have parts hanging off the edge of the table, that plays into my "moving the bracing" idea

Accuracy- well, the fact is that a lot of stuff I make only really needs to be "that looks good enough" but I build it to tighter tolerances. The rare times that I genuinely need accuracy it's usually in the .001-.005" range (for example, I recently made some parts that used a .0020-.0035" interference fit that were heated and assembled with a 500*f temperature difference, and when cooled they locked together without needing any other fastening, .002" in either direction would mean a part that wouldn't hold or wouldn't fit when warm. I don't know if you guys really consider that accurate or not...