[keen]

Thanks for posting the results Evolves - just what I was hoping you would find. Glad you noticed the Y gib came loose once the base was untwisted! Cheers, Keen.

[MichaelHenry]

Well, we finally solved our issue....

Thanks for posting the resolution - something similar should probably be done with my mill and it's encouraging to hear the results of your tests.

Mike

[SCzEngrgGroup]

Isn't it nice when the solution is something simple? I'm surprised though - Had you adjusted the Y gib after originally mounting the machine to its base? Assuming it was correctly adjusted at the factory (and I'd assume it was), once mounted with as much of a twist as it apparently was, I would have expected the Y axis to be pretty much locked up, which should have been a red flag.

Regards,
Ray L.

[CadRhino]

Thanks for the post.
You really know your machine now

Well, we finally solved our issue. It took longer than i would have hoped to get an opening on the machine but this weekend we got it all straightened out.

We started by loosening the base bolts to the table (which we had tightened the S*** out of initially - not good). we trammed the table and the measurements changed so it looked promising. We then removed all of the shims we had put under the base. Then we lifter the front of the mill and supported it with a .75" aluminum block in the center. This holds the table in a three point support and can't flex it at all as many on here have said to do. We then trammed in this position (still with all base bolts loose). It actually looked much better, but when we would get to a certain point the measurement would jump. It turns out the Y gib was now loose (no longer pinched from the base flexing), so i checked the X gib (did not need adjustment) and re-adjusted with Y gib, all while still supporting the mill in three points.

Once all gibs were re-adjusted it was time to re-tram the table...and WOW what a difference it made. We saw 0.0005" across the entire 18" X travel, and no noticeable change in the Interapid indicator across the 9.5" Y travel. we were ecstatic to say the least!

Now it was time to set it back on all 4 feet. We removed the block that was supporting the front in the center and set the mill back on all 4 feet. We trammed the table and saw about 0.0015 across the 18" of X travel and about 0.0006 Across the 9.5" of Y travel. We wanted to do better. Our approach was to lift the front and insert a shim under ONE of the feet and then set the mill back down and re-tram. We guessed the foot right the first time but the shim thickness was too thick (0.030") and it twisted the table the other way. You can tell by the direction of the indicator when you tram the Y on the left edge of X travel vs. the right edge of X travel, we reduced the shim thickness to a 0.010 shim and it was much better, but we wanted perfection. So we changed to a 0.007" shim and that was the one! we have 0.0005" in the Y direction on the left edge, 0.00125 across the 18" in the X direction (both top and bottom of the table), and no real noticeable change in the Y direction in the center and right edges. We decided NOT to tighten the base bolts, and just left them finger tight.

The machine has been running since saturday and i just re-checked it last night and it still trams as good as it did when we adjusted. I will check it again in a few months to make sure.

In addition the center T slot came back to life also, the FRONT edge (the ground one) measures with no noticeable error until the far right hand side two inches, and then it changes by 0.0005", so it looks like we can just set vices and fixtures on for standard tolerance work. and henceforth i will return to calling the center slot a "Precision center slot"

I was so used to working with the crooked table that everything we have made since has seemed like cake, many of them coming out within +/-0.001 in Z depth across the entire thing (usually 10.25"). So at the very least i may have gained some skills trying to compensate for the crooked table for the last several months lol

Sorry if this was long winded but i wanted to document what we found and hopefully our struggles and what we learned will be of use to someone in a similar situation in the future.

Thank you again everyone for all of the helpful input and suggestions while we were trying to figure this out.

[EvolveES]

Isn't it nice when the solution is something simple? I'm surprised though - Had you adjusted the Y gib after originally mounting the machine to its base? Assuming it was correctly adjusted at the factory (and I'd assume it was), once mounted with as much of a twist as it apparently was, I would have expected the Y axis to be pretty much locked up, which should have been a red flag.

Regards,
Ray L.

Yes, we did have to adjust the gib on the Y. I know that Tormach sets them pretty loose at the factory but we had to back it quite a bit further out when we initially set it up. that SHOULD have been a red flag, but we are completely new to this machining thing (at least the side of running machines).

For reference below is a list of other red flags that we had that should point you to a improperly leveled base:

Differences in table height (obviously)
crooked center T slot
The gibs needing a lot of adjustment from the factory settings
Vices not sitting perfectly flat on the table surface (i initially thought that the little rail outside of the machine was not ground to the same height as the center - it should be)
excessive backlash (as a result of overly tight gibs)

Don't do like i did and make assumptions on what is going on or how you think the machine is made, if something is suspicious then dig into it

[SCzEngrgGroup]

Don't do like i did and make assumptions on what is going on or how you think the machine is made, if something is suspicious then dig into it

Yeah, but look at how much you learned! :-) That's what I always tell myself....

Regards,
Ray L.

[EvolveES]

Hello again everyone. I revived this post to give an update on the progress and usability of the program we wrote. It has been updated to include drilling as well as tapping. The layout has been modified too, and graphing of points has also been added. There is an instructional video that can be seen here:

NEW EHGG Instructional Video - YouTube

With this program we generated a part that has 462 drilled holes in a TOTAL of 3:30 and that is from scratch to bringing the G-CODE to the mill and it required NO other software so no expensive licenses to buy. At the end of the video I issue a challenge: show me another way to generate the 462 holes for something like this part as quickly. I can send you a solid model of the part if you want or you can just make one similar, it is a 4" x 4" Plate

[mountaindew]

Don't do like i did and make assumptions on what is going on or how you think the machine is made, if something is suspicious then dig into it

I have followed this thread and results carefully. Reading about your final results was very revealing information. As mike noted above I will have to look this over and see if my machine can be tuned for even more accuracy and another item on my list to check every month or two. Over the years of reading these forums I can remember and I bet one could search and find hundreds of posts about how machine tools don't need to be level or setup this or that.......when in fact every little detail makes some difference. I take the time to clean, adjust and maintain my machine on a regular basis and think at times is this necessary. Then I read posts like this reminding me that every detail can make some difference, from machine setup to long term maintenance. Then I find myself wanting to get second opinions on things like test indicators, wondering if it or they are working correctly and not wanting to assume they are accurate all the time either.

Your drilling / tapping program sounds like a great utility! I use cam $oftware and find I can spot drill, size drill and tc tap holes with little effort. Don't get me wrong, I understand that other people use other methods and have other needs. I spent a great deal of time learning how , detailing tools, feeds speeds and setting up predefined operations for many things like this. As I have noted in other threads I rely on this software(tool) to do everything and imho the machine is a paper weight without such tools.

Again thanks for follow up and posting results.
learned some good info about castings, machine stands and setup!
md

[hanermo]

Great thread !

It shows some important facts;

Machine tools can bend and flex a lot.
How they are fixed (mounted) can have a great impact on how accurate they become.

And also, a final positive:
The actual quality of the components and machining from the factory was within specs, and pretty good.

[LeeWay]

I agree. Great thread. The thread also shows that ear plugs can be used to cheaply protect your brain from coolant and chips. Something to that effect.

[EvolveES]

I have followed this thread and results carefully. Reading about your final results was very revealing information. As mike noted above I will have to look this over and see if my machine can be tuned for even more accuracy and another item on my list to check every month or two. Over the years of reading these forums I can remember and I bet one could search and find hundreds of posts about how machine tools don't need to be level or setup this or that.......when in fact every little detail makes some difference. I take the time to clean, adjust and maintain my machine on a regular basis and think at times is this necessary. Then I read posts like this reminding me that every detail can make some difference, from machine setup to long term maintenance. Then I find myself wanting to get second opinions on things like test indicators, wondering if it or they are working correctly and not wanting to assume they are accurate all the time either.

Your drilling / tapping program sounds like a great utility! I use cam $oftware and find I can spot drill, size drill and tc tap holes with little effort. Don't get me wrong, I understand that other people use other methods and have other needs. I spent a great deal of time learning how , detailing tools, feeds speeds and setting up predefined operations for many things like this. As I have noted in other threads I rely on this software(tool) to do everything and imho the machine is a paper weight without such tools.

Again thanks for follow up and posting results.
learned some good info about castings, machine stands and setup!
md

Thank you everyone for following, and i am glad that this can be useful to others than just myself. It has been a battle, and in the beginning i didn't think it would be fixable, i couldn't get myself to believe that the base had THAT much impact, and it really does. even a few thousandths can make a difference that translates all the way to the table. I will check it again soon and re-adjust as necessary. It all depends on what you want out of your machine, for some 0.002 is really tight, but i most often make optical mounts and fixtures where every 0.001 counts. As mentioned these machines really are made well from the factory and a great value. I never thought i would be getting this kind of accuracy out of one. and Mountaindew, you described me exactly, i do the same things, regularly check the machine, wonder if there is more adjustment i could do, and i even doubt my indicators all the time, sometimes i drive myself a little crazy lol.

and please disregard the program post on this thread i was meaning to start a new one but i guess i was posting in this one (no wonder i couldn't find it when i thought i posted it...so i posted a new one, i thought it was a computer or internet glitch). I would delete it if i could but if you are interested there is a second thread all about it.

THanks again everyone, this is a great place and i look forward to learning and contributing more in the near future

[quapman]

They say misery loves company, so here goes...LOL...

I bought my 1100 used a couple years ago and learned the hard way that the poor old girl had been ridden hard and put away wet its whole life. I noticed that repeatability was non-existant and I had chatter marks and a host of other ills.

To make a really long story short, I ended up:

Leveling the machine,
Adjusting the motor controls to reduce chatter and motor noise,
Straightening the head (it was out .012" over 6"),
Adjusting all 3 gibs and adding tabbed washers to the Z gib "jam ends", since I actually locked up the Z and had to use a bottle jack to free it up,
Repairing several broken/leaking oil lines,
Adjusting/repairing all 3 motor couplers.

If there was more, and I think of it, I'll add to the list. These are GREAT machines if they're well cared for. Mine wasn't.

Steve

[EvolveES]

I'm sorry to hear that. what happened in the end, did it come back to life? i know that not taking care of a machine is very bad for them, but sometimes like cars you can get them cheap and fix a few things and they are good as new again. was yours permanently damaged?

They say misery loves company, so here goes...LOL...

I bought my 1100 used a couple years ago and learned the hard way that the poor old girl had been ridden hard and put away wet its whole life. I noticed that repeatability was non-existant and I had chatter marks and a host of other ills.

To make a really long story short, I ended up:

Leveling the machine,
Adjusting the motor controls to reduce chatter and motor noise,
Straightening the head (it was out .012" over 6"),
Adjusting all 3 gibs and adding tabbed washers to the Z gib "jam ends", since I actually locked up the Z and had to use a bottle jack to free it up,
Repairing several broken/leaking oil lines,
Adjusting/repairing all 3 motor couplers.

If there was more, and I think of it, I'll add to the list. These are GREAT machines if they're well cared for. Mine wasn't.

Steve

[quapman]

Oh, yes, it's back to life and when I get some time I'll be making parts again. I'm not expecting to ever hold anything better than +/- .001", but for what I do, that's fine.

I was pretty nervous with the Z locked up, but a lot of luck and a modicum of skill got it free. (plus a 5 ton bottle jack)

I also replaced two of the limit switches and fabbed a bracket for the Y switch. (Just a piece of angle,really). My machine is # 065, so it's an oldie, but a goodie...LOL.

Unfortunately, it wasn't "cheap" either, and I'm making payments on a personal loan. Seemed like a good idea at the time.

[EvolveES]

I'm glad to hear it came back to life, hopefully you can get some work going through it and it will pay itself off...many times over much like me in my blunders i bet you learned a lot once it was all done. Sometimes i think things like that are kind of a blessing in disguise, they are pretty terrible when you are in the middle of them but in hind sight i wouldn't change any of them because of the experience i gained. Enjoy the newly fixed mill man :cheers:

Oh, yes, it's back to life and when I get some time I'll be making parts again. I'm not expecting to ever hold anything better than +/- .001", but for what I do, that's fine.

I was pretty nervous with the Z locked up, but a lot of luck and a modicum of skill got it free. (plus a 5 ton bottle jack)

I also replaced two of the limit switches and fabbed a bracket for the Y switch. (Just a piece of angle,really). My machine is # 065, so it's an oldie, but a goodie...LOL.

Unfortunately, it wasn't "cheap" either, and I'm making payments on a personal loan. Seemed like a good idea at the time.

[DLawrence]

I have even had a crazy thought that what would happen if you got a granite surface plate and had it drilled through with the same bolt pattern as the Tormach base mounting holes and then bolted through the granite and had the mill sitting directly on top.
.,

That principal is really a good Idea , Years ago read a thread on the South Bend lathe Section of Practical Machinist where it is explained how during WW2 a method was developed and used to greatly

increase the rigidity

of the small SB bench lathes,for emergency war production supposady making a 400 pound bench lathe come close to the rigidity/surface finish of a 3500 pound monarch 10EE .

As i recall it involved somthing like building a form and pouring a 2ft X 5ft X 3ft tall block of concrete.... thats about 3000lbs and about 8-12 hours (when the

consistancy is just right) later setting the lathe

bed directly down on it for perfect fit.

tie down bolts deeply embedded. Later the bolts were torqued

Dave Lawrence

/

[popspipes]

And that relates to the topic of this thread how??

Alignment is whats relevant to the topic.

I do the same here as I machine 99% parts in the vise.

[philbur]

Alignment is whats relevant to the topic.

I do the same here as I machine 99% parts in the vise.

Nothing like digging up a body that's long dead and giving it one last kick just to make sure it really is dead.(chair)

Phil

[DLawrence]

Sit the machine down on the back pads but not on the front two - rather a central packer between them - that gives the base 3 point contact and cannot twist it. Now measure via feelers or shims the difference in the gap on the front left and right, make up some shims to account for that and lower the front down on its two pads. Now it is untwisted and can be tightened up, and the Y gib can be adjusted up as the Y slide is straight. Keen

OK.... I am to that point of getting it up on the two back pads, and a single support or "packer" in the front center . I hesitate to lift the full front weight with a jack bolt and plate like NYCCNC's video used for moderate side lift. I cringe at the thought of the weight being concentrated at one point.....on that sheet metal....... I suppose there is really no alternative ..........using a a gantry and chain hoist twith a hook front center would possibly allow the stand to spring up on one side and throw the feeler gage readings off...... I'll use largest heaviest plate I can get under there and still have bolt head clearance.

Searching the 1100's user manual I have now......... manual 415a document number 3542, with the PDF search doesnt bring up any mention of base to stand shimming


Dave Lawrence

[adamvs]

Alignment is whats relevant to the topic.

I do the same here as I machine 99% parts in the vise.

Naw, I'm glad this thread is still alive because it's something that plagues a lot of us. I checked mine, and thought, ok out by .0015 at the most, not too bad. But after reading this I now know it could be tuned a lot better. If there any pics around of the front support, third leg, I, for one, would like to see'em. Also would like to know what you used for shims.