[TravisR100]

Well I've pretty much decided on a Super Mini Mill. I had the HFO rep out today and we talked about options and he had some good advice about the machine that I wouldn't have otherwise been aware of.

Here's my dilemma. If you go to the HAAS site and look at their demo machines for sale, they have a Super Mini listed for $54,687.50. Retail on it is $78,125. The discount is 30%. Some of the options listed on the site for this mill are a little confusing since some of the option codes have changed. The rep brought a spec sheet showing the machine with the current option codes. It has the following options:

15K-SMM
AUGER
16MB
ENET/HD
HSM
HFP-SMM
P-COOL
TTC-300
TTC
WIPS
MACRO
COORD
ACF

Even those codes are still a bit off since WIPS now comes with MACRO, COORD, and SOM. Being 30% off this seems like a nice deal. I got him to pull the details on the machine. It has 393 servo hours, 299 run time hours, 43 motion hours, and 40 spindle hours. It was built in February 2008. Also, he thinks that even though they list it as having a 15" screen that it may not since he doesn't think they started doing the 15" screens on the minis until September of 2008.

If I were going to configure one myself with only the options I wanted, it would have the following option codes.

15K-SMM
WIPS-R (includes MACRO, COORD, and SOM)
AUGER
HFP-SMM
P-COOL
16MB
HSM
IPS-V
RJH-C
ESW-1

So really all I'd be leaving out over the demo unit would be the hard drive/ethernet, the through-tool coolant, and the auxiliary coolant filter. That through tool coolant option is expensive, $6000. And the filter is another $1800. Ethernet/HD $2800.

So he put a quote together for a brand new machine with the options I listed above. Retail was $67,545. They'll give me a 20% discount and make it $54,036.

So, it's basically a wash. I'd be paying about the same price for the demo model with those extra options or a new one without those extra few options.

Which one to buy? Other than doing a lot of drilling, is the through-tool coolant that important? The hard drive really seems like a waste given the size of USB sticks these days. Any opinions?

[TravisR100]

Based on Geof's comments regarding the 15K spindle in my other post, I'm now considering this instead:

Super Mini Mill 2
HFP-SMM
AUGER
P-COOL
16MB
HSM
IPS-V
R-TAP (brochure says it's standard, haas site says it's an option)
RJH-C
WIPS-R
SMTC-24-UP

[TravisR100]

Is the HSM option beneficial without the 15K spindle?

[Geof]

Now you have jumped into a different ballpark.

Take away the IPS-V, WIPS-R, and probably the RJH-C and you are specifying my next machine. Order it, put down a deposit and then discover you have to cancel so I can pick it up a a discount.

I actually got lucky like that a couple of years ago which is why I got a 15k rpm VF2 for the price of a 10k.

I have looked at the Super 2 and I think it is probably good value for money, especially the 24 place side mount changer option.


I think the HSM can be useful with the 10k spindle. I know it is supposed to be applicable to contouring with abrupt corners but my guys reckon it smooths out the machine motion during engraving and when we do really strange tool paths for chamfering internal hole intersections with a lollipop cutter.

[TravisR100]

Ok, the RJH-C is a novelty, but I want it. I've heard IPS-V isn't all that useful on a mill but it now includes the dxf import capability which might be useful. No WIPS-R? Really? This seems like an incredibly useful option. Why not? It includes the SOM, COORD, and MACRO options. Those three options alone are $4300 and the WIPS-R is $5000.

[Geof]

Ok, the RJH-C is a novelty, but I want it. I've heard IPS-V isn't all that useful on a mill but it now includes the dxf import capability which might be useful. No WIPS-R? Really? This seems like an incredibly useful option. Why not? It includes the SOM, COORD, and MACRO options. Those three options alone are $4300 and the WIPS-R is $5000.

RJH Remote Jog Handle, I had forgotten what it stood for; how short are your arms?

One reason I would not get the probing is that on our machines we do not have space on the table for the probe stuff. Also we don't really need it because the machines do production with calibrated fixtures; we know where everything is and in many programs work zeroes are entered from the program.

[TravisR100]

Not that short! Like I said, novelty. That makes sense on the probe. For me, I think it would be pretty useful.

[JohnJW]

If space is not an issue, maybe you can look into a VF1. It will give you an extra 6" of Z travel and I think the Mini/SMini series has weldment bases vs cast iron bases for VFs. It's been a few years, but I too looked at a Mini vs a VF and decided that VF comes with more standard features that are optional on the Mini and if you add up all the VF standard options the price of a mini is comparable to a VF. . . but it's been a few years so I don't know if that is still true.

I think the Haas probe package are great and better than what other manufactures are offering. I even ordered it on a SR-100 that doesn't list it as an option. It cost a little more for a ISO30 holder and to field install it, but it's still worth the price.

HSM is an option I did order but wonders about. The specs on the controller is not as transparent as the mechanical specs. The HSM description of today is the same as it was back in 06'. However, I would imagine a current controller without HSM will probably perform better than a 10 year old machine with HSM. Based on what I read, I know there is at least one generation controller difference between my 06' machine and today's machine. I also wonder how Haas can compete technologically with dedicated control manufacturer like Fanuc & Siemens but I haven't read any complains about Haas controller being inferior in any way. So, I will just keep on enjoying Haas ingenuity.

I don't have through coolant but I remember people mentioning TSC being absolutely necessary in production environment. . . . luckily my machine sits idle most of the time so I don't have to regret not having TSC.

I did order the Ethernet/HD along with 16MB option back in 06' when the alternative was either floppy or RS232. It wasn't cheap but it made file transfer and management a lot easier. However, I skipped both options on the SR-100 because I think with USB being standard it's hard to justify paying that much money for Ethernet/HD and the extra 16MB option.

[TravisR100]

Actually space is a huge issue for me. I will have to tear down a wall to get it in. I was really going back and forth between the super and super 2 just because of the additional 7 inches in depth and 9 inches in width.

[JohnJW]

RJH Remote Jog Handle, I had forgotten what it stood for; how short are your arms?

Okay I'm guilty of having short arms. I figure I'm always touching the probe off either parts of fixture to find the origin and the probe has to back off ~ .4" from the surface. With SR-100's 4'x8' work surface I may need that that remote jog handle . . . . . How do you do it on your GR?

[behindpropeller]

First I'm not a machinist.

We have a TM-2 for protos. It has the probe. I have only made about 10 different parts so far. Let me say this:

I don't know how a modern shop gets by without a probe.

Geof seems a bit different that he only produces his products.

If I were to learn how to program our machine with the probe and have it probe every part and spit out a sheet with the measured dimensions it would be very valuable.... So far none of our current vendors have that in their manufacturing process.

Spend the money on the probe.....its part of manufacturing technology.

Tim

[Geof]

. . . . . How do you do it on your GR?

What! have you never heard of the remote jog handle option? We got one on our GR, and pcool, and HSM, and HD & ethernet, and HSM, and Macros and a whole bunch of things that took the base price of around $90k all the way up to almost $140k.

Then the projects that I was going to do on the GR fell through and I had a very heavy paperweight sitting out in the shop.

Fortunately another product line started to grow and now the GR has more than recouped its purchase price.

[behindpropeller]

What! have you never heard of the remote jog handle option? We got one on our GR, and pcool, and HSM, and HD & ethernet, and HSM, and Macros and a whole bunch of things that took the base price of around $90k all the way up to almost $140k.

Then the projects that I was going to do on the GR fell through and I had a very heavy paperweight sitting out in the shop.

Fortunately another product line started to grow and now the GR has more than recouped its purchase price.

Geof-

What do you make? Website?

Tim

[Geof]

....Geof seems a bit different that he only produces his products....Tim

Geof is also a stubborn old cuss.


My attitude to probes is the same as to CAM; I am going to sling off at it ntil the time comes that my business can benefit from it and then I will be converted.

But I do honestly think you should learn how to do things without a probe so that when you destroy yours just starting a rush job on a Friday you can keep working through the weekend without it.

[behindpropeller]

Geof is also a stubborn old cuss.


My attitude to probes is the same as to CAM; I am going to sling off at it ntil the time comes that my business can benefit from it and then I will be converted.

But I do honestly think you should learn how to do things without a probe so that when you destroy yours just starting a rush job on a Friday you can keep working through the weekend without it.

I agree with you....

But you are in a different game than me. You are production.....I am prototypes.

I am an engineer....not a trained expert at CNC programming....

[Geof]

...not a trained expert at CNC programming....

I am hardly a trained expert.

I just fumble my way through.

Actually these days I do prototypes and fixture design and it is possible sometimes a probe could be useful but my home shop machine has two Kurt vises and a HRT210 permanently mounted; there just ain't no room. Also it doesn't matter much if I take 2 or 3 minutes to put in a few offsets rather than 1 or 2 because nobody monitors my time.

[JohnJW]

Geof is also a stubborn old cuss.


My attitude to probes is the same as to CAM; I am going to sling off at it ntil the time comes that my business can benefit from it and then I will be converted.

But I do honestly think you should learn how to do things without a probe so that when you destroy yours just starting a rush job on a Friday you can keep working through the weekend without it.

You really should give probing a try. If you order the machine with macro you're already getting a discount on the probe.

I'm a beginner so probe is just for offsets and yes I've heard of the sliding paper routine to offsets but that still did't stop me from frantically search all over the place for odd size battery at 10pm. Just think of the possibilities you can have with probe and you can stick it to the CAM crowd even more

[JohnJW]

Actually space is a huge issue for me. I will have to tear down a wall to get it in. I was really going back and forth between the super and super 2 just because of the additional 7 inches in depth and 9 inches in width.

Maybe you can email Haas_Apps directly with some of your questions, especially on the less common options. Sometimes I think application engineers are better at answering product questions than sales people.

If I didn't have the space I have right now I'll go with a Mini/SMini as well.

[Geof]

.....and you can stick it to the CAM crowd even more

Can't do that anymore; the company bought Mastercam, X10 is it, a few months ago. I will never bother learning how to use it but the company has several employees who do. In Travis' other thread I mentioned the purpose we bought it for; developing weird toolpaths to chamfer internal hole intersections using a lollipop cutter. That application alone will recoup the cost in six months in time saved; not to mention realing pleasing my guys who do not have to get sore wrists doing it by hand.

[TravisR100]

I think I've gotten most of my questions answered. I was looking more for opinions here. The biggest issue I've had with Haas so far is getting accurate dimensions from them. They even released brand new drawings for the MM and MM2 that were done on July 6. Even these aren't accurate.