[KeithOKC]

If EFR and SPT are the same cost to you why do you use the inferior tube that has less hour life? Do you charge more for the EFR when someone requests it?

The Thunder laser costs about $1500-$2000 more than most all of the other Chinese lasers and takes a week or two longer to ship. They seem mostly be more built-to-order rather than 100s sitting in a warehouse ready to ship. The EFR ZN-1650 option was not a cost upgrade beyond this on the initial purchase. It was however one of the big reasons for justifying the extra costs along with the use of servos instead of steppers, the build quality, and the perception of better service I had at that time.

[KeithOKC]

Well Keith sorry about all your problems and you can be sure I just delete all of Nolans emails to me. He has been emailing me a lot lately kinda trying to get me to buy a laser from him , I'm not looking for a laser right now and I told him so but would consider a Thunder in the future But now that won't happen after your fiasco .

Thanks Bigbird, and fixture man I appreciate the support

[jdmarti1]

I too had been talking to Nolan, this makes me rethink everything.

Jack

[abyss]

Observing this thread as potential customer. I'm not only one.

[jdmarti1]

Observing this thread as potential customer. I'm not only one.

That really is sad too, I had decided Nolan was the guy I was going to work with. Oh well, I guess I can save enough to ship it over and get the same crappy service elsewhere. Nolan is going to have to work hard to correct this. I wonder how many folks here are planning on buying?

[gfacer]

OK, just to make a few points here. I also think that thunder laser should have handled this better ie overnight the tube from efr but:

1) servos over steppers is a real advantage and worth more, and Keith mentioned.
2) if you buy from China direct you need to be prepared for some problems in QC and shipping. Expecting to be up and running perfectly the first time just isn't reasonable because of the shipping alone.
3)Nolan has been / is an active and helpful member here and that should not be thrown away with one bad experience.
4) if bad experience was the only criteria, all the major vendors would be out, they all have had lemon deals (like mine from shenhui). This is a risk you take, and if you got the laser as described at all you've avoided the worst case scenario.
5) to reiterate a previous post of mine, one needs to buy spare parts and allow vendors to settle problems "their way". That's a cultural difference, although one I fully agree the Chinese should figure out and adjust to, particularly a firm like thunder laser aiming directly for a western buyer. I didn't buy a spare tube in my own case simply because I bought two machines at once....figured I had the spare. I did of course, the other machine worked fine, but in hind sight I'd buy a spare 80w every time.

Just making these points as the criticism of this vendor has gone a little far in my opinion.

[jdmarti1]

OK, just to make a few points here. I also think that thunder laser should have handled this better ie overnight the tube from efr but:

1) servos over steppers is a real advantage and worth more, and Keith mentioned.
2) if you buy from China direct you need to be prepared for some problems in QC and shipping. Expecting to be up and running perfectly the first time just isn't reasonable because of the shipping alone.
3)Nolan has been / is an active and helpful member here and that should not be thrown away with one bad experience.
4) if bad experience was the only criteria, all the major vendors would be out, they all have had lemon deals (like mine from shenhui). This is a risk you take, and if you got the laser as described at all you've avoided the worst case scenario.
5) to reiterate a previous post of mine, one needs to buy spare parts and allow vendors to settle problems "their way". That's a cultural difference, although one I fully agree the Chinese should figure out and adjust to, particularly a firm like thunder laser aiming directly for a western buyer. I didn't buy a spare tube in my own case simply because I bought two machines at once....figured I had the spare. I did of course, the other machine worked fine, but in hind sight I'd buy a spare 80w every time.

Just making these points as the criticism of this vendor has gone a little far in my opinion.

I agree with some of what you say. That being said if I send you several thousand dollars, and the machine breaks in 30mins, I expect you to bend over backwards to make me happy. If you want to grow US business, you have to somewhat conform to our standards. I would have realistically expected a new tube of the same or better type than I had in 3 to 7 days. If EFR can't provide the tube, then as a business owner I am sending a cheaper one on me, with a replacement coming from EFR in 30days. I would battle with EFR to recoup my costs if I had to do that. If you want to fight it out in the US market, it takes work.

[jdmarti1]

I agree with some of what you say. That being said if I send you several thousand dollars, and the machine breaks in 30mins, I expect you to bend over backwards to make me happy. If you want to grow US business, you have to somewhat conform to our standards. I would have realistically expected a new tube of the same or better type than I had in 3 to 7 days. If EFR can't provide the tube, then as a business owner I am sending a cheaper one on me, with a replacement coming from EFR in 30days. I would battle with EFR to recoup my costs if I had to do that. If you want to fight it out in the US market, it takes work.

Another thing to think about, there are a few of these types of tracking reviews out there. Nolan admitted either here or on Sawcreek that the reviewers were given considerations. If I am having problems as one of the special customers, how's the average customer going to be treated.

[Nolan Yang]

Hi Keith and other user in this forum,
ok, let me explain details to you again.
1. SPT and EFR laser tube is same price for us, if EFR is better, why we still choose SPT C series laser tube?
we are fool? because the quality of C series laser tube is better.

2. C series laser tube is cheaper why it is better?
C series laser tube is seal by plastic, its tightness is better, co2 and other gas can stay inside longer.
Most of laser tube manufacturer want to earn more money, they have to produce new model for their customers.
S series and EFR ZN laser tube is seal by metal, their shapes look advanced and pretty, and these manufacturer
advertise that these tubes is better, and lifetime is about 10,000 hours.
However, it is not a new technology. But their advertisement is very successful, because most of people trust it.
all customers order the machine from us, when we talk about laser tube, I will explain that our laser tube lifetime
is 2,500~4,000 hours, not 6,000, 10,000 or higher. this is offical data.

if you are very lucky, maybe your tube can be used for about 10,000 hours, but the probability is very small,
because most of tubes are gone when they are produced, and 2,500~4,000 hours is average lifetime.

if you use the tube that without testing, its defective probability is very high. However, we still can't promise that
its quality is no problem even though the tube pass our testing. The fact is that these tubes are not good enough,
we just try to find "not bad" tubes from these bad laser tubes.

this is why we provide 6 months warranty for laser tubes, some customers think that it is short, but we can't find
better manfacturer in China this moment.

3. Most of customers know RECI laser tube, is that better? I don't think so. (we have visited their factory, RECI,
EFR, SPT, SP etc, their principle of production is the same)

4. usually, most of customers will accept our suggestion when we explain these reality to them.
and this year, we sold 2 EFR laser tubes and 1 RECI laser tube, all of them are defective.
and I promise that we have tested it before we send it out. (we don't do last test because of time limited)
except these 3 tubes, our other machine install SPT C series laser tube, and only 2 tubes are gone.

5. and I have promised that if this SPT C series laser tube is gone again, we can accept your advice.
I think we can solve this problem easily if you listen our suggestion.

[gfacer]

That does bring up another point I thought of after my last post.... Knowing nothing about the brands mentioned, I was only going to say that sometimes the claims of the "better" tubes are way overstated. And, Nolan may be correct that holds in quality as well as rated hours. Our "good" tube, a RECI, was way less than 10000 hours and I had two defective RECI tubes in my ordeal....they were considered the best brand at the time...main reason we continue to use RECI is the shorter length as much as anything else.

[jdmarti1]

I will also say this for Nolan. In my discussion with him he has tried to steer me away from Reci and EFR, saying they have had better luck with SPT. I have really been unable to find any real definitive research to show who makes better tubes. I have googled like a mad man trying to find it. I have found people that say it, but no true numbers to back it up. All anecdotal evidence. I am just curious to see how this plays out, and see how it effects my decision. I don't think servo motors are worth 1500. Good service is.

[gfacer]

Actually, true servo are probably worth that much compared to a diy approach....but probably they are hybrid closed loop steppers that sometime get called servos. I just put some of those (hybrids)on my shenhui to see how they worked. Answer seems to be slightly better than old drivers, but mostly its a peace of mind, troubleshoot other parts if a problem develops, type of change. Those are about $400 more than regular.

[KeithOKC]

Hi Keith and other user in this forum,
ok, let me explain details to you again.
1. SPT and EFR laser tube is same price for us, if EFR is better, why we still choose SPT C series laser tube?
we are fool? because the quality of C series laser tube is better.

2. C series laser tube is cheaper why it is better?
C series laser tube is seal by plastic, its tightness is better, co2 and other gas can stay inside longer.
Most of laser tube manufacturer want to earn more money, they have to produce new model for their customers.
S series and EFR ZN laser tube is seal by metal, their shapes look advanced and pretty, and these manufacturer
advertise that these tubes is better, and lifetime is about 10,000 hours.
However, it is not a new technology. But their advertisement is very successful, because most of people trust it.
all customers order the machine from us, when we talk about laser tube, I will explain that our laser tube lifetime
is 2,500~4,000 hours, not 6,000, 10,000 or higher. this is offical data.

if you are very lucky, maybe your tube can be used for about 10,000 hours, but the probability is very small,
because most of tubes are gone when they are produced, and 2,500~4,000 hours is average lifetime.

if you use the tube that without testing, its defective probability is very high. However, we still can't promise that
its quality is no problem even though the tube pass our testing. The fact is that these tubes are not good enough,
we just try to find "not bad" tubes from these bad laser tubes.

this is why we provide 6 months warranty for laser tubes, some customers think that it is short, but we can't find
better manfacturer in China this moment.

3. Most of customers know RECI laser tube, is that better? I don't think so. (we have visited their factory, RECI,
EFR, SPT, SP etc, their principle of production is the same)

4. usually, most of customers will accept our suggestion when we explain these reality to them.
and this year, we sold 2 EFR laser tubes and 1 RECI laser tube, all of them are defective.
and I promise that we have tested it before we send it out. (we don't do last test because of time limited)
except these 3 tubes, our other machine install SPT C series laser tube, and only 2 tubes are gone.

5. and I have promised that if this SPT C series laser tube is gone again, we can accept your advice.
I think we can solve this problem easily if you listen our suggestion.

This is humorous because you clearly do not understand the concept of a customer bought one thing and it broke they want a replacement of the same thing in a short time. This is called good service in the US when you do what I just said. When a customer buys one thing, it breaks, and you try to give them something else, even if you think it's better, if the customer thinks it's worse or it is of lesser value this is called bad service. Bad service is also making your customer wait a month for a replacement.

This is going nowhere, you simply do not understand how to provide good service it seems, or do not wish to.

Since you are unwilling to compensate me for the $1350 in extra costs I have incurred because of Thunder Laser's failure to test the tubes as Thunder Laser claims to do before they ship them, please send me the EFR ZN-1650 replacement. I'll put it in storage and hope it does not go bad before I get to use it. That's a big hope...

[Nolan Yang]

Hi Keith and other user,
except the servo motor, our machine has other advantages, but I don't want to discuss it on this post. (if you are interested in it, you can visit our website or contact with me through email)
1. the problem of laser tube, I explain it clearly. I am not sure whether you will accept our views.
Yes, EFR company will help us send a new tube to you, can you please tell me your current address and other information. and please check the tube carefully when you receive it, we still provide same warranty for this laser tube.
2. your suggestion is very helpful, and I did introspect myself these days. I must inform other customers when they request to install other brand laser tube next time. if there is something wrong with it, we only send our default laser tube to you soon, or wait for about 1 month to test other brand laser tube.
3. I don't want to blame someone or find any excuse, because our machine is really not good enough, we accept all positive or negative feedback/comments/advice on this CNC forum.
as time and culture is different, I misunderstand the concept of "good service". this matter remind us that we still need to improve our machine and solve the problem on time.
4. we sell many machines to USA this year, we face different problems everyday, and we help our customers solve the problems together. I really appreciate all support from our customers.

in fact, I am sales person, it is not my work to solve the problem(our technical departnment will get the job). why I still check my email always even though I am on holidays or weekend?
I understand these problem will puzzle our customers, and I hope we can solve it very soon. and you bought the machine from us, I am the first person who you contact with, and you trust me can solve the problem. I don't want to disappoint you, but other colleagues or company(like EFR company or other manufacturer) will rest, I also hope you can understand my situation.

anyway, what does not kill me, makes me stronger.
Have a nice day.

[abyss]

2. your suggestion is very helpful, and I did introspect myself these days. I must inform other customers when they request to install other brand laser tube next time. if there is something wrong with it, we only send our default laser tube to you soon, or wait for about 1 month to test other brand laser tube.

Yes, you have to.
Each market have different rules and habits. From my experience USA need the perfect one. Europe is a bit more forgiveable so I don't say "definitely not!" for Thunder Laser products. But not sure if servos and build quality will be worth this amount of extra $. Maybe less.

[KeithOKC]

Hi Keith and other user,
2. your suggestion is very helpful, and I did introspect myself these days. I must inform other customers when they request to install other brand laser tube next time. if there is something wrong with it, we only send our default laser tube to you soon, or wait for about 1 month to test other brand laser tube.

Hi Nolan,

Yes I think #2 would have cleared up a lot of confusion if I had known that in advance. Also if you were not going to test the tube you should have told me that. Before I bought the laser you said you would spend a week testing it then when, I received it and had the problem you admitted you don't test them. Being upfront and honest is always best.

You are very good at replying promptly I agree you are excellent at that.

[KeithOKC]

I will also say this for Nolan. In my discussion with him he has tried to steer me away from Reci and EFR, saying they have had better luck with SPT. I have really been unable to find any real definitive research to show who makes better tubes. I have googled like a mad man trying to find it. I have found people that say it, but no true numbers to back it up. All anecdotal evidence. I am just curious to see how this plays out, and see how it effects my decision. I don't think servo motors are worth 1500. Good service is.

JD here is a cost comparison from a US company who resells chinese tubes. They don't have EFR right now so I will have to use the comparable in price RECI tubes for comparison.

SPT C130 130W CO2 Sealed Laser Tube

High Quality Reci S6 130W CO2 Sealed Laser Tube (10000hrs)

[thunderlaser]

Dear Keith,
This is King, general manager of Thunderlaser.
First, I must say sorry about this unhappy case.
Although we have tried to provide good product and good service from the past years and therefore win some good name and get support
from many customers, this case has proved that there're still a long way for us run before we can provide better service and better product.
This means our QC process and our management system still need to be improved a lot.
And for this , we, the management team have the whole responsibility.

Therefore, for your case, we will do the below both:
1. refund the UDS1,350
2. send a new EFR ZN-1650 tube

And learned from this case, we will upgrade our QC process and after sales service:
1. upgrade our tube testing process: our current way of testing the laser tubes is : a) starting current test. b) power test. c)beam quality test. d)stability test. e) power attenuation test. f)age test. g)power attenuation test. All these tests are done before installing to the machines. And in the future, we will also add age test after installing to the machines and also add final checking for the laser tubes to reduce the failure rate.

2. upgrade our after sales service: if a tube fail when customers receiving the machines within 1 month, as long as it's not a man-made factors. We will send out a spare tube at once. And if after discussing, the customer and our tech person both agree to buy a tube from the third party at a reasonable and fair price, we will pay for the tube.

3. If some customers need a certain brand tube which we don't have in stock, we will need some more time to test the new tubes to make sure the quality and meantime, we will stock some spare tubes for fast after sales service.

Thanks so much for your understanding and suggestions.
We will work harder to improve our quality and serivce from now on. And we believe that with the help of you and other customers,we can do better!

with best regards

King
General Manager

&Whole Thunderlaser Staff

Thunder Laser Tech Co.,LTD.

[jdmarti1]

Dear Keith,
This is King, general manager of Thunderlaser.
First, I must say sorry about this unhappy case.
Although we have tried to provide good product and good service from the past years and therefore win some good name and get support
from many customers, this case has proved that there're still a long way for us run before we can provide better service and better product.
This means our QC process and our management system still need to be improved a lot.
And for this , we, the management team have the whole responsibility.

Therefore, for your case, we will do the below both:
1. refund the UDS1,350
2. send a new EFR ZN-1650 tube

And learned from this case, we will upgrade our QC process and after sales service:
1. upgrade our tube testing process: our current way of testing the laser tubes is : a) starting current test. b) power test. c)beam quality test. d)stability test. e) power attenuation test. f)age test. g)power attenuation test. All these tests are done before installing to the machines. And in the future, we will also add age test after installing to the machines and also add final checking for the laser tubes to reduce the failure rate.

2. upgrade our after sales service: if a tube fail when customers receiving the machines within 1 month, as long as it's not a man-made factors. We will send out a spare tube at once. And if after discussing, the customer and our tech person both agree to buy a tube from the third party at a reasonable and fair price, we will pay for the tube.

3. If some customers need a certain brand tube which we don't have in stock, we will need some more time to test the new tubes to make sure the quality and meantime, we will stock some spare tubes for fast after sales service.

Thanks so much for your understanding and suggestions.
We will work harder to improve our quality and serivce from now on. And we believe that with the help of you and other customers,we can do better!

with best regards

King
General Manager

&Whole Thunderlaser Staff

Thunder Laser Tech Co.,LTD.

I would say this is a company trying to win business.

[abyss]

Yeah, good service, quality product and proper Public Relation management are key to success. Good direction, Thunder Laser!