[JohnnyDon]

We are considering replacing all controls on our machines with PC based controls.

CAMsoft seems to be the way we're going to go. Obviously They sell themselves as the "Best" and have a canned answer for all of our questions so far. What I would like if for those of you who work with the controls first hand to give me an idea of what we're getting into.

If you don't like CAMsoft, please let me know why.

If you love them and don't know how you lived without this control and why you put up with say... FANUC (our current controls) for so long please let me know that too.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Bob Pierre]

Camsoft is one of those companies that has been around a long time and knows the CNC business well. They do seem to have an answer for everything.

I decided to reply because you asked about Fanuc. We love Camsoft because they set us free of Fanuc. The tech people at Camsoft are much better and easier to work with than Fanuc and Camsoft pricing is far better. The parts are available from off the shelf sources so you don't have to worry about buying only Fanuc parts or drives. I can't say a hate Fanuc but sometimes I am so glad we use Camsoft so we know why you would ask. Free at last.

Bob

[Al_The_Man]

The question I would ask is do you intend to do the retrofits yourselves? If so, have you had any experience in this area or other machine control?
Is it Fanuc you are thinking of replacing, if so what vintage of machines?
Al.

[Karl_T]

If you're considering Camsoft, spend some time reading all the posts in this (Camsoft) forum. An evening's reading should answer a lot of questions you didn't know you had. Your exact question has been asked before with a ton of responses.

Karl

[JohnnyDon]

The question I would ask is do you intend to do the retrofits yourselves?

Yes, we are going to give it a shot first anyway.

If so, have you had any experience in this area or other machine control?

No sir.

Is it Fanuc you are thinking of replacing, if so what vintage of machines?
Al.

Yes, All Fanuc. Series' 16-T, 18-T, O, 18-MC, 16-MB

[JohnnyDon]

Camsoft is one of those companies that has been around a long time and knows the CNC business well. They do seem to have an answer for everything.

I decided to reply because you asked about Fanuc. We love Camsoft because they set us free of Fanuc. The tech people at Camsoft are much better and easier to work with than Fanuc and Camsoft pricing is far better. The parts are available from off the shelf sources so you don't have to worry about buying only Fanuc parts or drives. I can't say a hate Fanuc but sometimes I am so glad we use Camsoft so we know why you would ask. Free at last.

Bob

That's exactly the kind of stuff we're needing to know, Thanks Bob! When you mention "off the shelf sources" what type of parts are you referring to?

[Bob Pierre]

Thank you JohnnyDon

Just about every part. You can get boards, motors, amps, relays, pendants, monitors, even use store bought PC's from off the self sources that Camsoft list. No more expensive proprietary Fanuc parts to buy.

Signing off got to take care of flood.

Bob

[Al_The_Man]

The only down side with Fanuc is if you have to replace the drives and motors it can get expensive, most machines with a Fanuc control are not small machines, so the motors are pretty good size, usually.
There is also the spindle to think of, and typically CNC spindles have a bit more to them than the cheaper VFD and standard AC induction motor.
Not only are CNC spindle motors generally capable of higher rpm than the average off the shelf version, they have the feedback pulse generator back to the drive.
Fanuc make so many variations of drives and AC servo motors it is impossible to keep track.
But motors are motors, and if you have the Fanuc AC servo's there is two possibilities in order to use them if the drives cannot be integrated.
One is a method I have used and involves replacing the proprietary encoder with an 8 pole BLDC encoder, or the other is a member here, Jon Melson has developed a converter for the standard AC motor encoder commutation pulses.
The Fanuc AC motors are nice motors so it is a shame if you cannot use them.
The only quarrel I have with PC based systems is when Windows is used to run the operator interface, with the Galil card doing most of the work, it can be done with a much less bloated code base if only there were people around that could do it.
Be prepared for a long integration time on your first one so I would pick a machine that you do not depend heavily on for production.
Al.

[Karl_T]

Yes, we are going to give it a shot first anyway.



No sir.



Yes, All Fanuc. Series' 16-T, 18-T, O, 18-MC, 16-MB

I would caution you here. A large machine refit to Camsoft is not a beginner's project. I had refit one machine to AHHA and another to Mach before buying a large Mazak M4 lathe to refit to Camsoft. I also had 18 years experience as a manufacturing engineer doing all sorts of machine control work. I was in over my head. In my case, I backed up and refit a simple knee mill to Camsoft then went back to that Mazak. I've sence done three other machines and helped on a few more.

If I were you , I'd hire help right away. or take on a smaller project.

Camsoft is a wonderful very capable control. The quality of the final machine is a direct result of the quality of the refit work.

Karl

[ontheroad]

I have learned a lot and owe these guys a favor or two. They took care of me. My sons know more about fanuc than I do but I do know that they prefer camsoft over fanuc. They said to me they can make the system do what they want to do. Maybe not at first because I went from cursing them to loving them. The first set of files they gave us for our machine didn't do what we wanted to at first. My sons figured out how to set up camsoft and now they have it just the way they want it.

John

[Lohmeyer]

I have a Camsoft converted knee mill (with Camsoft Professional). I bought it used, professionally installed, but not quite working the way I wanted (the user interface still needs some improvements). This isn't Camsoft's fault. It's because the machine was sold to me used before the professional installer finished programming the interface. I have no problem diving in to learn Camsoft, and even prefer the ability to make my system work exactly how I want vs. closed controllers like Fanuc. I do this kind of thing for a living (programmable systems, software and hardware design). I knew Camsoft could do just about anything I needed. I just needed to learn how to program it. So I dove in.

I was surprised on two fronts. One, the Camsoft documentation is woefully inadequate, or difficult to find what I needed to know, and two, the programming user interface is actually quite archaic. I was a bit shocked for a $5000 software package that purports to make my life simple, yet it was anything but. Well, compared to custom software written in C, and PLC programming, yes Camsoft is simpler. But, there is much that could be improved, and which I believe Camsoft has not improved for quite some time. They keep up on certain things well (the guts of Camsoft), but the user interface, programming tools, and documentation (especially the online docs user interface) are right out of the '90's, and I'm sorry to say, painful to use.

I plan to do a few other machine conversions. When I choose the product to do those conversions, I am investing both money and _time_ into that product. If I'm going to go through the learning curve to use a product, I only want to do it once. That means I need to feel comfortable that product will be around for years to come and keep up with the times. Looking at the rate of development, improvements to the interface, and documentation for Camsoft, I do not feel comfortable that Camsoft is viable for the long term. There are lots of hungry developers making new products that will eventually replace Camsoft, and even if they aren't comparable now (Mach), they will be soon. Plus, Mach is _significantly_ cheaper, has a large support community, and does not require a yearly maintenance contract.

Mach isn't comparable to Camsoft yet, but for much of what I care about, it's close. For a basic 3-axis conversion, Mach will do the job. The only reason I'm not wholly converting to Mach yet is because I already have a recent (2009) version of Camsoft Pro. I've got it, so I might as well give it a chance. I'm even happy to pay the $1300 to re-up my service contract when I'm ready to start the bulk of the upgrades (probably this summer). But before I'm going to blow that kind of money and spend the next year learning how to use Camsoft, I want to know I'm not investing my time in a has been product. When I talked to Camsoft about this, all I got was kick back. They do not seem interested in making improvements or listening to recommendations, and I see the day coming where Mach is going to put Camsoft out of business. I cannot afford (at any price) to use a product that is not willing to keep up with the times.

Camsoft reads this forum, so I'm sure they'll correct me on much of this. I'm all ears guys.

I contacted Camsoft with several basic questions to understand what I was getting into and what it would take to make Camsoft do it, and they practically wouldn't give me the time of day. I got better information about Camsoft from Galil than I got from Camsoft (much to the shagrin of Galil - apparently they get that a lot). I have since bought the hardware I need to upgrade my system thanks to Galil (and no thanks to Camsoft), but I made sure all of what I bought works with Mach. I think Camsoft's attitude was I was trying to ask questions that they only answer under service contract, and perhaps they didn't believe that I was willing to drop them the $1300 to re-up my contract. That was a mistake. My questions were budgetary and critical toward understanding what I had and what I needed _before_ I wasted my time and money on a service contract. I was ready to drop the money, but now I'm seriously studying Mach to see what it takes to make it do what I want.

In Camsoft's defence, maybe I just rubbed them the wrong way. I had a lot of questions because I hadn't had the benefit of being "sold" Camsoft from the beginning. I was polite, but specific. Ultimately, I was a potential customer, ready and willing to spend money on their products, and I walked away with a sour taste in my mouth. That's my experience, not everyone's, and it sounds like Camsoft has answered your questions better than they did mine.

So, long story longer... Camsoft should do what you need. But, if all you are doing is converting a basic 3 axis machine, you should definitely look at Mach. Or, if not Mach, check out some of the many Mach based canned solutions being offered by other companies. You may find it much cheaper now and later, and much easier to install if you go with one of the canned solutions. If, however, you are like me and want to have 100% control over how your machine works, then be prepared for a steep learning curve (for Mach or Camsoft), and if you go with Camsoft, be ready to pay for the service contract because you'll need it if you plan to continue development on your machines. Support-wise, it's a difference of whether you need professional hand holding (Camsoft) vs. an open community of users (Mach). Or, again, try the Mach based canned solutions which come from professional companies willing to provide the support you need.

[Karl_T]

I have a Camsoft converted knee mill (with Camsoft Professional). I bought it used, professionally installed, but not quite working ...

I see some of your points concerning "the wrapper" on Camsoft. The wrapper on Mach and others look better.

But when it comes to the guts, others aren't even close. Camsoft is a mature product with a lot of life left in it, much like all other good machine control products. There is no need for a significant product rework. I am certain that Camsoft will continue to be a viable control for a great many years.

I guess its too bad that becoming proficient at Camsoft isn't easy. But, as someone else said, just because learning to fly a 747 isn't easy doesn't mean its a bad airplane.

Karl

[HuFlungDung]

One thing I'm not sure of with Camsoft replacing black box controllers, is the complexity of integrating high speed machining gcodes into the post processors used with the multitude of CAM software solutions out there. It seems to me a bit clumsy to have to turn high speed lookahead on and off in conjunction with the first and last G01 command in every chain sequence.
I invite Camsoft's response to this question.

[camsoft]

We would have to know more about what version you have to go into further detail. It maybe in your case that the person you bought the machine from declined our offers to update the system or did not want technical support or maintenance. This means that we will note your company is the new owner in our database but you're not a customer yet. We will always give advice but please understand that you're not going to get the same level of technical support that a current customer has access to but this will change once you decide to do so. Because you were quoted $1,300 tells us that your product is an older one and has not been updated in a while. However, once you do update it then the cost drops to only $41 a month for maintenance, live tech support and this includes software upgrades to new versions.

We spend a lot of time, with potential customers and have been complimented on the free consulting advice we provide pre and post sales. In fact almost everyone that talks with us tells us that we are far more responsive and knowledgeable than any other company they have dealt with and thank us for as much time we give them.

We believe we have the most advanced CNC system offered and update it every Friday with the latest Windows drivers, various hardware board drivers , motion card drivers plus add features so often we have many different ways to do any one thing for 9 machine types. If feature content is a measure on how often we employ suggestions from users than we're on top on things, updating our system weekly. Dealers and people like the ones on this forum have the credit for making the suggestions for new features. They are the ones that make the flashier screens and suggest new software & hardware functionally. Some are so attractive that we wish we had permission to distribute them. At least people know that the wrapper can be as simplistic or as feature rich as they would like, because the power beneath the wrapper is the most open and flexible system on the market.

Speaking of keeping up, We don't believe mach have even released Vista or Windows 7 yet. Systems like mach target the hobbyist machinist while we focus on the commercial use side. Most of Americas largest companies and Universities use CamSoft and expect to be able to speak with the manufacture while on the other hand we also offer lower end products for more price conscious people that only have a 3 axis knee mill. There's something for every shop with knowledge in knowing that there is an expandable upgrade path with CamSoft if needed in the future.

The bottom line is that we have not only kept up, we started the PC based CNC controller business and are still ahead of the curve. We have been building this product line since the mid 70's. It will be a long time before anyone catches up and by then we would of leaped even further.


Tech Support
CamSoft Corp.
[email protected]
PH 951-674-8100
Fax 951-674-3110
www.cnccontrols.com

[camsoft]

Hello HuFlungDung,

Think of these extra G codes as added high speed machining features to give that extra boost. They are not required to be used nor do they have to be used. With a modern PC and fast motion card this system will out perform systems that cost 4 times as much without the need for a post processor change.

Fanuc has similar G61 and G64 G codes used for smoothing and exact stop check that we just expanded on. Our G61 and G64 with variations of G8 and G9 for the CNC Lite version have increased the speed and functionally to meet or beat the performance of thee most expensive controllers.

Many CAD/CAM companies such as Delcam and Gibbs have written post processors for their CAD/CAM software to take advantage of these high speed machining features. With these unique CamSoft G codes we can now give the average shop the abilities and features that only mega corporations can afford. Some practical examples of these G codes give the end user with the right post processor the ability to do smoothing, buffering, splines both bi-cubic and NURBS within G code. Where for example the surface or geometry generated by the average post processor creates a long series of short G01 moves that have flats, like connect the dot moves to create a free flowing surface. This leaves a surface finish that is humanely visible with "flats". With no fault of the user. It may have been because the original CAD model is not smooth. With the features that we've added a bad part or CAD model can be smoothed out without the end user re-designing the CAD model or the machine operator polishing by hand the surface smoother. To achieve this you need both the ability to run through the thousands of short G01 moves that make up a spline quickly without going into a jittery , stuttering effect and also be able to take the original G01 moves, read ahead in the program to pre-calculate a smooth splined curvature thru these original G01 points thus increasing the number of cutting positions that were in the original G code by a magnitude of 10 times or more. Meaning for example the CNC Control will on-the-fly read ahead to create a path with 10 times as many points along the curve than were originally given without asking the CAD designer to change the model.

We hear what you're saying. The confusion comes in is that sometimes we suggest using these features when we want to increase the performance or cutting speed out of necessity. Sometimes we use these as a "crutch" when the intent was to use them to cut molds, aerospace or 3D artistic geometry. The weakest link in the chain can hinder maximum performance of our system or anyone's. By this we mean that if a fast PC, with a fast model motion card and proper set up was being used then you'll get away from having to use these G codes for speed enhancers to instead use them more for their original purpose as to give a shop a method to achieve the highest possible cutting feedrates that they normally couldn't afford. If anyone has to use them then there must be reason and we can help to find that reason or suggest better equipment. Sometimes a faster PC alone will do wonders.


Tech Support
CamSoft Corp.
[email protected]
PH 951-674-8100
Fax 951-674-3110
www.cnccontrols.com

[TOTALLYRC]

Speaking of keeping up, We don't believe mach have even released Vista or Windows 7 yet.

Mach3 is and has been released for use with Vista and Win7.
I know it works on Win7 because I use it with Win7.


Mike

[Lohmeyer]

We would have to know more about what version you have to go into further detail. It maybe in your case that the person you bought the machine from declined our offers to update the system or did not want technical support or maintenance.

This is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. In my conversations with Camsoft, I said several times my version is v16.7 dated April (or was it May) 2009. I do not have some ancient version that is so significantly different from the current product that my comments are invalid, yet I was constantly told "oh, you must have an old version". This is an example of the push back I keep getting.

Your software is advanced in many ways - advanced in the areas it most needs to be probably. But, it is archaic in many others ways. I'm still baffled why you don't see this. I think it is just a matter of perspective I guess.

We spend a lot of time, with potential customers and have been complimented on the free consulting advice we provide pre and post sales. In fact almost everyone that talks with us tells us that we are far more responsive and knowledgeable than any other company they have dealt with and thank us for as much time we give them.

That's great to hear, and I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but it wasn't the experience I had. I would be happy to re-open a dialog about this. But several months ago, I just gave up and moved on to other projects.

[camsoft]

We can do that.

Let us re-phase this. You're not in our customer database yet so we would like to know who you are so we can ask various people here to look notes that we may have before we comment, that's all.


Tech Support
CamSoft Corp.
[email protected]
PH 951-674-8100
Fax 951-674-3110
www.cnccontrols.com

[Farmers Machine]

I must have missed it, but what type of machines are you wanting to retrofit???
What do you want them to do that they cant do now? How old are they or are they some special purpose 1 in a million machine? My genius friend and I retrofitted an ESAB gantry cutting machine made in 1981, and had many hair pulling moments.
All of the problems can be traced directly to the windows operating system failures. NEVER a CAM SOFT issue. If you want a dependable money making machine DO NOT USE VISTA!!! buy the system from cam soft with windows XP with software loaded and the motion card set up. If you will tell cam soft as much about what you want your machine to do the default CBK file that they will send you will make your machine go as soon as you figure out encoder pulses per inch and get everything wired in. If your servo motors are DC the Servodynamics Ruby drive has worked very well on my machine. I upgraded to 16.8 software when I switched to XP last week so my 29 year old machine is as up to date as the new $ 250,000.00 version from ESAB with a CAD/CAM package in the control. I am going to add a Bridgeport milling machine head later to make a precision hole drilling machine for some power plant gusset plates that can then be cut out and go straight to the coating department instead of being setup in the CNC mill and indicated in on and then second op drilled. you cant do that with a FANUC. having worked for Alcoa in central engineering I made friends with the local CNC repair man in the white van. at 5 grand per pop on a 100 dollar circuit board you can see that maintence with cam soft is the best deal in the USA.!!! if you do the retrofit you know every part of the machine. if you have to change a part next year cam soft will help you make changes to your control and off you go again. every body goes balistic when their machine goes down but when your office machine with your bookkeeping software wont print a report no big deal reboot and go again, there is no such thing as a flawless electrical or mechanical device, if you have something that doesnt work like you want it to cam soft will allow you to adapt and overcome the problem with a fairly simple solution. My next big idea is to build a CNC machine to sandblast and paint crude oil storage tanks. by the way, they dont sell them at the paint store or the sandblaster supply store, but CAM SOFT can make one fly.
My 2 cents
The Farmer

[Karl_T]

... My next big idea is to build a CNC machine to sandblast and paint crude oil storage tanks. by the way, they dont sell them at the paint store or the sandblaster supply store, but CAM SOFT can make one fly.
My 2 cents
The Farmer

I spent two years of my life making GM-Fanuc six axis robots do my bidding. They have a neat function where you input the part surface. The robot is then given an offset, and the tool (welder, sprayer, sandblaster) is kept orthongonal or at a defined leading angle for the programed motion.

If you want to talk EXPENSIVE repairs, get these robots. The team from Detroit was the only ones to touch them.

I've not seen it, does Camsoft have the ability I just mentioned?

Karl