[Metalmog]

Agree, open to do what you like on most machines you want. There is also some other motion and I/O stuff behind the scenes that makes it pretty good, but you pay for it.

Out of the box no good - needs work and steep learning curve. If they had one detailed engineered example of each type of machine where the code works flawlessly out the box - it would go a long way to elininate the learning curve.

Now that March3 (@ ~$180) has a Galil driver option, I don't see many paying +4K$$$ for basic 2 - 4 axis implementation with low I/O requirements. Estimate 70% of machines fall into this catagory.

[battwell]

i must say i have to agree with this.
mach/galil works well , easy to set up etc
and the best thing you get to try the software before you buy rather just watching presentations of what it might do.
im sure camsoft is good but they will have to up their game now as we the money parters have a choice who to spend it with.

[Bob Pierre]

Let's be realistic or at least honest with people.

When you say 70% that's your opinion could use mach. It's more like 10% of commercial users realistically.

I get a good discount from CamSoft so this it's worth the price for me when you consider a few things. CamSoft is a must for business use. There is no comparison in it's reliability and power. Most people shouldn't be risking missing IO points because mach can't do more than one thing at at time. Even from one day to another the timing of IO events , G code and positioning can become out of whack. The cutting even pauses or becomes jerky at random then it's fine again. If it hasn't happened to you yet than it's just a matter of time. CamSoft is the only way to go for any valuable, complicated machine with lots of IO, high speed is needed or there's something special or custom in the application. There's lots of everyday things that I couldn't do with mach, sometimes I would have no choice but to use Camsoft. The speed of CamSoft is night and day difference on the exact same board. Not to mention a business usually feels it's important to get good technical support/service.

I have run into trouble with Camsoft too, but at least I was always offered help and a way to solve my problem. I could go on and on but before you start a project you would have to ask yourself. How important is it that I will be able to get this machine finsihed and do it the way I want it to be done? Are parts I am going to make on it are valuable if so than CamSoft is the safe buy. There 2 systems are just not the same at all. I just can't risk it.

I could sell either system if I wanted but I will not do another mach install on a customers machine tool. Most machines are too valuable to the owners for mach, their expectations are high. It's far too buggy and I am the person responsible. It doesn't make me look good and CamSoft does. CamSoft is a professional system, powerful, more configurable so I known I can make my customer happy and I get great technical support.

There's a place for both but your estimate is far too high.

Bob

[Ben Olson]

if Camsoft would make their control work exactly like a Haas control then they would have something.... I want a control that has NO surprises..

and to all that would say that they would rather be endlessly fiddling with .CBK files and re writing G code , I need a machine that makes me money not a hobby

[Karl_T]

if Camsoft would make their control work exactly like a Haas control then they would have something.... I want a control that has NO surprises..

and to all that would say that they would rather be endlessly fiddling with .CBK files and re writing G code , I need a machine that makes me money not a hobby

That's exactly why you want Camsoft. If you read carefully here, you'll see that the folks having troulbe were not expert installers. Becoming an expert at refitting a machine to Camsoft is not a small task. Again, read carefully, you'll see many experts that swear by it.

Come see any of my machines - the control is better than new. Just exactly the way I want it.

Hire somebody like N174K and you will have your old iron running just like your Haas for a fraction of the price.

Karl

[ScottLea]

Dear Camsoft,
[looks like I caused quite a stir]

You are free to contact me directly (private reply) and I will be happy to outline the issues in detail and learn all the wonderful improvements available today. The problem is that my version is very old by now and I can only imagine that your product has evolved dramatically. I've already converted to Mach3... so there's little point, although I do have everything from the original setup on a removable disk drive and it would be nice to have that system working properly, especially with a well known popular post. I have a large house and shop, so you can stay and I'll have a captive audience (moh ha ha!)

I originally bought the package directly from Camsoft; Galil 1850, opto-22, that awesome pendent, two breakout boxes, CAD system as well -- big bucks at the time --
I also got the tuning S/W from Galil). I have the receipts. Sorry, I didn't mean to imply you sold me all the equipment (spindel controller, drives etc), I was just typing too fast and short cutting.

I'll stop here as further bashing of old releases doesn't really help folks using the later versions. Think Windows 3.1 vs XP... why ask why?

Sidebar: Keep in mind, I'm an embedded systems programmer -- I'm spoiled by high end scripting/programming systems and relatively good documentation. A little nostalgia for you --> The Camsoft docs at the time consisted largely of a Q&A section, often self-referential, the scripting function documentation lacked definitions of critical parameters. I often wondered if I didn't receive a critical document (I asked more than once).

I'm sure the docs must have improved. But I can't afford to find out now.

--Scott

Scottlea,

We would like to find out who you are, who was your assigned dealer and come and pay a visit. We don't know what happened 8 years ago and all of us on the technical staff has been here this long and no one recalls your situation. Maybe you don't need us at this point but we would still like to send some one to investigate. We may have a different take on this.

We don't sell technique drives or vector flux drive then nor now. It's all pretty sad that you feel you have to write something like this.

Still today the CNC Professional version remains the best system offered on market. There isn't another system with more on-line and professional written printed documentation. It still the most configurable system on the market. Each user can change the default system with his or her own operator interface, canned cycles or even alter the sounds and verbal text to speech instructions. Each user can make the system feature rich or as simplistic as they feel it should be. Plus write complex IO logic routines inside the system to handle over 400 relays. This can all be done without having to learn computer programming languages such as C++, VB script or ladder logic.

The point is that we seen a lot of other packages over the last 28 years. What we ship is bug free and while you may have a problem setting up, learning or with custom logic per application the software itself is shipped bug free. We have improved and evolved since 1981 but at least we know that when compared to what our competitors ship on the topic of bug problems most are 100 times worst.


Tech Support
CamSoft Corp.
[email protected]
PH 951-674-8100
Fax 951-674-3110
www.cnccontrols.com

[Ben Olson]

That's exactly why you want Camsoft. If you read carefully here, you'll see that the folks having troulbe were not expert installers. Becoming an expert at refitting a machine to Camsoft is not a small task. Again, read carefully, you'll see many experts that swear by it.

Come see any of my machines - the control is better than new. Just exactly the way I want it.

Hire somebody like N174K and you will have your old iron running just like your Haas for a fraction of the price.

Karl

thanks for the invite , but I don't think a trip to Minnesota is in my near future
the trouble with Camsoft is the ability to configure it anyway you want, it's not simple enough , that's whats great about the Haas control, it's simple, one touch offsets etc... and reliable, I know what it's going to do when I hit cycle start... Camsoft should make a product that works flawlessly on VMC's , a product that works flawlessly on lathes, and keep the current product for the customer who wants to tinker around and fiddle

[HillBilly]

I found Camsofts implimentation of G64 (Constant Velocity) to be cumbersome compared to other CNC controls. On most CNC controls the software will LOOKAHEAD in the G code and blend the moves together in a continous motion. With Camsoft the moves are sent to the motion control card to be blended together. This is where the restrictions come in, not found in other systems.

Camsoft definitely has the G code editability, very useful when doing something nonstandard, but this is no reason not to have a good set of standard codes for mill and lathe. As stated before this may have improved since the version I delt with. A member here has posted his DRILL MACROS (G80-85) that are suppost to preform more as expected. I looked them over and he obviously has some time in this project.

Darek

[Al_The_Man]

but this is no reason not to have a good set of standard codes for mill and lathe. As stated before this may have improved since the version I delt with. A member here has posted his DRILL MACROS (G80-85) that are suppost to preform more as expected. I looked them over and he obviously has some time in this project.

Darek

My original assessment of Camsoft was around 6~7 years ago so hopefully things may be different now.
But as Darek mentions I was disappointed in not at least having all the basic G code routines that you would normally buy with a commercial system.
G codes are only machine specific as to the machine function itself (Lathe-Mill etc), not manufacturer design.
One of the selling points of Camsoft was that it would do what the commercial system would do and more.
This together with the advantage that present drives and motors could be used.
What I found at that time was that most of the G code routines were not present that you would normally get in a fully functional commercial system,
(threading, probing etc).
The time to write these and debug them as well as doing the normal control logic side of the machine increased the retro-fit time drastically, and then hope that the system would conform to the customers expectations.
From what I have seen written in some recent post, some standard routines appear still to be perfected?
On a less drastic side, I do not think Camsoft did themselves any favour in their sample screen presentations, to me they smacked of Arcade game style look, with the shag rug background and sound effects.
If they could have marketed me a system that offered at least G-code routines that come basic in any Mitsubishi/Fanuc control, it would have gone along way to selling me on the product.
As a Registered Mitsubishi retrofitter, when comparing the slight extra cost of a known system and comparing it to the extra development time did not appear to work out all that cost effective.
As an aside, I am a big fan of Galil, although I believe if Acroloop had marketed their card stronger, it had more potential than the Galil, I have a couple of CNC machines running with an Acroloop.
Al.

[Karl_T]

My original assessment of Camsoft was around 6~7 years ago so hopefully things may be different now.
Al.

Al, I've read 100s if not 1000s of your posts.

I've seen you're not too proud to use quality used or new but obsolete components. And you have the ability to fabricate a number of electronic devices. This plays right to Camsoft's strength - open hardware sourcing.

You also have a ton of experience with Galil.

As Murray (HuFlungDung) has said, you have to do the first Camsoft refit as a training exersize just to learn. No way would you come out on the first one.

Writing the gcodes and mcodes for your machine is trivial with the exception of canned cycles. I've posted examples of the more difficult ones here on the zone. There are other examples that ship with the software.

I find most coding time deals with a good operator panel and making this intuitive and error proof. Now that i have a good one for lathes and another for mills, I do all machines the same.

Long story short: If you were willing to do one refit solely as a learning experience, I think you'd become a Camsoft convert.

Karl

[battwell]

karl t
you have mill and lathe that look and work good. why not get camsoft to buy them from you so they can sell to punters so they too can have something good to start with.

[Karl_T]

karl t
you have mill and lathe that look and work good. why not get camsoft to buy them from you so they can sell to punters so they too can have something good to start with.

Maybe I'm too cheap, you can have them for free. One of my lathes is on their web site as "CHNC". haven't seen it but they may put my mill up for rigid tapping. My installs might not be best for beginners as I like a lot of I/O for a robust operator interface.

Because every machine is different, you can't just drop a .cbk in and have it run. But you can drop in large chunks of code at a time from all different sources. Most folks don't realize theirs 1000s and 1000s of lines of code to snip from.

Karl

[Bob Pierre]

Let's clear up the use of CamSoft's CBK file approach for the newbies and non CamSoft owners.

What I am going to say is the way I know it is today. I can't or shouldn't comment on how CamSoft used to be if you're and older user.

A default CBK for your machine type will be given you if you ask and should already have the traditional functionality start, feedhold, jogging, readouts, homing, displays a mill uses out-of-the-box and it works . The current version does seem to run Hass G code or generic standard Fanuc style G code. All the canned cycles are there and working for a standard mill or router. There are many CBK files I see in the list for all types of machines. I hadn't tried them all but they too seem to be generic defaults of a various machine types. What's better than these that you see on the CD are the particular CBK files for certain machine brands that they will give you if you ask. I know that I will have to make changes to the settings in them. I realize that they come from old users that have done that machine before. CamSoft said they clean them up, but they could improve here. Some included more routines than others but it has been a big help to have a template to work from for a particular machine. Some include the logic for the tool changer already written, homing routines, spindle, tapping, rotary axes, coolant, air, lube timers, safety interlocks. Well you get the picture.

This is all fine and good but out of the box for simple machine but it seems that unless I buy everything from CamSoft including motors I have always found myself trying to connect up to old existing equipment. That's were the fun comes in. There are very few projects that are that simple. There's always something on the old machine or function that's needs to be made.

A default CBK is only good for those simple projects. I like CamSoft because I don't have weeks in ladder logic programming, I don't have to buy a PLC. I can change the screen add a feature and make or customize the G and M codes. I can't do this with a Fanuc. mach is too whimpy and the IO processing not robust enough let alone reliable. One of the advantages is that I can do all of this within CamSoft. Once I learned CamSoft they provide a Screen Designer without the need for me to learn VB or XHTML, 2 servo tuning programs, I also get a definable table of 199 G and M codes that expands the default standard G code functions, Internal IO and motion logic commands without the need to know PLC's, Ladder logic or VB script. I don't need to learn anything else. The system comes with a real shop floor CAD/CAM system and the 16 million color solid modeled graphics tool path simulation makes the whole thing look more expensive than it really cost.

I have had trouble with setting up my CBK files. They know it and I know they'll read this. Despite what I have said to them in the past it's not CamSoft's fault that I am trying to hook up equipment they didn't sell me or me trying the change the way the default works. I want to say the only thing that I found the default CBK works on are standard pieces of generic hardware. I know if I were to buy one of CamSoft CS-310, CS-320, CS-330, CS-201, CS202, CS203, CS-204, CS-205 or CS-206 packages with their pre-configured motors, drive and cables. Then out of the box this would make my installation easier. But I have never been that lucky. There is always something unique to tackle. For this reason I buy CamSoft. Otherwise I wouldn't even think of doing these types of projects using mach or Fanuc. I try to get a CBK from them as close as a match as they can give me. I do buy the IO from them and supply my own PC.

On some projects I know I could buy a Fanuc but thy are too expensive for me. Besides not knowing ladder logic that well it would take me even longer to program the PLC. What shoots me down is that it doesn't apply in most cases because they only want me to use their hardware.

Unless it's a simple machine all systems take time to set up learn and program. CamSoft is as easy to use as any other for these simple projects. I know with CamSoft I can standardize on learning one system for these simple projects or at least it allows me to tackle any project. I get good prices for low cost knee mill systems as well as the bigger complex systems that have hundreds of IO or crazy hardware plus you can't beat the experience of these guy have.

Why use the CBK file approach. Because you can. It's the best tool on the market and it gives me an advantage to do what I often need to get done.

The installer only needs to make changes to the logic inside the CBK file because of only a few reasons. Usually because there is a need to adapt a motion or IO routine to how an old piece of existing equipment operates in order to reuse it again, or there's a custom feature or function the user wants to duplicate or else run G & M codes that are unique to a how the machine used to work. If I didn't have the ability to change how the G & M codes work then I would be stuck in plenty of cases. I get lazy and try to tell people, do it like this instead. That doesn't always fly. They want it their way even if it's an old style.

It's the installer job to get the machine set up and enter the settings in the CBK file. The user should just operate the machine. If I haven't done my job the machine doesn't run. The point here is that once the machine and CBK file is set up and I have hopefully made the user interface fit the application better than it used to be so that the machine operator becomes more efficient then he will be able to make the owner lots of money.

If I did my job the operator should just run the machine and not even know or care what a CBK file is.

Bob

[HillBilly]

Well that seems to be straight from the Website. One thing about that spill that always hit me as a oxymoron

?????"I am an experienced retrofitter but do no know ladder logic"?????

Darek

[Bob Pierre]

I really don't need to with Camsoft. There logic commands handle what a PLC would do on the computer. I shouldn't say I don't know loadder logic. I just hate the stuff now. It's been so long I can't remember how to use it. I am spoiled with Camsofts method and I can diagnostic the IO logic better on the computer too.

Bob

[HillBilly]

I know what you mean. I am spoiled on other CNC controls. No need to putz around with NEXTMOVE and BLEND values to get smooth block to block operation.

Darek

[camsoft]

We see it's time to clear up a few topics.

Let's call this: Start up screens and CBK files. Then and now.

We see that advice and updating facts are as important as updating product. For those that haven't done a CamSoft retrofit recently, own the current version or are just starting out. We can simply say that much as changed in the last several years alone. In fact every Friday something new comes out. We also haven't forgot what has worked for us in the past over the last 28 years. The employees, users and the dealer/installers that the have pioneered the development here at CamSoft Corp since the first days of PC Based CNC Controllers.

Because we offer systems that range from Do-it-yourself kits to Turnkey combinations of hardware, pendants and motors, with or without installation, the amount of start up effort is in direct portion to how much you do yourself and how much you have done for you. It is also how many hardware connections need to be made to pre-existing older motors, amp drives, sensors, spindles, IO relays ect... and how good the wiring documentation there is to go off of. All of this information makes each projects "things to do list" a matter of degree in the amount of effort and what files we can provide.

The reason for mentioning this is to classify the retrofits we do into 3 categories and show what Start Up files we offer.

(1) The Turnkey systems that come with all new hardware and software pre-installed into a operator pendant with motors that fit a particular standard application without any additional pre-existing hardware to figure out or connect up to. These are your standard Mills, Lathes, Routers, Flame cutters, WaterJets, Lasers, Punch Presses, Grinders and EDM.

Here we provide ready to use, working, pre-set up G codes & Operator screens all ready to use after installation. There is nothing more to learn or set up than any other system expects you to do. All systems, even systems from every major manufacture or hobby shop systems still need some degree of basic set up parameters plus in some cases servo tuning. Ours is as easy to use and setup as any.


(2) For projects that require interfacing to old hardware. We will offer as much of as little as the customer wishes to get from us. This is where a dealer could get involved if need be. The customer would be the judge if they can handle the mechanical electrical installation or ask for a service call or even full installation. Often some custom routines need to be set up to talk to various tool changers, sensors and IO relay logic. We provide screens and logic file routines that we copy from prior working machine projects and hand them out after we have ask a group of questions about the machine and it's use. These files are often machine specific so we do clean up the operator screen replacing the images with more generic bitmaps of buttons & lights, use our logo plus remove all hardware specific logic routines and settings by resetting these values back to more conservative settings.

We will still provide a default but we open the G codes here for configuration. G codes get more unique from machine to machine. Because we have a table of 199 G's and 199 M codes to conform to unique post processors, more than often we replace the G & M codes table in these CBK files with generic Fanuc like, EIA standard ones. The body of the G program that make linear and arc moves are easy with only a few choices on arc styles. We use the same generic canned cycles for that machine type as would be traditional. The default canned cycles have slight nuances in the rapid clearance plane call out much like a Haas or a Fadal have nuances from Fanuc. Minor to say the least. In our system a person can choose how each canned cycles operates. These all work and are used as expected from an operator point of view but the installer usually has to pick from a library of routines to match up the hardware method to pre-existing equipment for such things as probes, tool changes, turrets, treading, probe model ect...that is open enough as to not be brand specific.

This plays to our advantage again since we offer a vast selection of choices in hardware and software routines. There are many routines provided that the installer can just enable or copy/paste that would be pre-written by someone else that had already got working and paid for in the past. The installer then makes minor settings and logic changes to make it match their preferences and equipment. CamSoft is able and willing to help here also. We offer application assistance quite often or even make on-site service calls. There are over 60 installers in North America that would be glad to offer their services as well.

For these projects the installation choice is up to the user. There's a safer feeling knowing there's always a way it will get done. The product is capable and the service is available.

Again it makes sense to use CamSoft because a standard CNC controller like a Fanuc doesn't adapt well to pre-existing equipment and hobby systems may not be a good fit machine type wise, less configurable G code wise, handle the IO quantity or may not have that special pre-written routine to enable and often no customer service.


(3) For projects that require interfacing to old hardware plus need custom routines or fit customer specs on the pre-existing equipment.

For these category 3 systems we offer more (A) Engineering help and Customer Service to adapt a particular piece of equipment or special request to fulfill a customers spec list. This is accomplished with a large variety of low cost hardware choices that range from hobby quality to commercial quality for replacement parts from all over the world. (B) A huge library of pre-written routines and files that we have been accumulating since 1981 for literally hundreds of specialized features, functions, unique hardware and gadgets on 9 machine types. Along with having customized operator screens, configurable G&M code tables and our own built in PLC logic for up to 400 IO we can handle the biggest of projects. The bigger the better, the harder and more specialized they are the bigger advantage it is for us and our dealers. You rarely would consider a Fanuc for something as custom as this.


In summary:

Today's system is a mix of many old and new screens that fit a wide spectrum of machine types and taste. We don't show customers screens as sample interfaces examples as often a we would like. Most of the screens we use we made ourselves as parts of customer projects. We do show the new screens along with the old on our web-site. Some are shown as examples that were taken from working systems that have been clean up using generic bitmapped images.

Some of our customers screens are just amazing. Our dealers and OEM's that private label our software have made very attractive operator screens and set up extreme detail using highly specific machine functions and routines. As attractive and functional as these are we don't hand them out but we do make a big effort to show that each end user gets to make his or her own operator screen using drag & drop bitmaps to become as feature rich or as simplistic as they want. We hope this is understood that user can also use the default screens that come on the CD or the one we will provide to them which came from a similar machine as their own personal start up screen that we ship in the package. It's just as easy to make your own or revise ours. A novice could do it without any computer code. Take some photos of their favorite control and paste the images onto their own CamSoft operator screen in the same lay out and assign the same functionality. We can't copy others but you can make your own. Some screens contain actually pictures of parts from their own shop. Lined up in a row along the bottom of their screen. They use their finger or mouse to touch the photo and set up a conversational or wizard style routines to prompt the user particular questions about their own parts. How long , how deep, how many, spacing ect... kind of clever idea for their own parts. No G code, no CAD files to process. Their own parts from their shop floor can be turn the graphic solid modeled tool path simulation into motor motion. Graphics to motion, Picture to part. No uploading or downloading and no post processors.

There was mention in early September in up the Coming News section of our news letter of "Better looking user Interface buttons". A news letter announcing this is coming soon.

We have also been taking a much more involved consultant like approach presales to match people up with the proper hardware and software version making considerable efforts to work with them at no cost. They make their own choice in the end what they want to supply their self and how much they would like us to do. This match up takes time and it often doesn't pay off, but in the end it's better someone knows what there are getting before they buy. Explaining and going over choices in advanced is part of our service.


Tech Support
CamSoft Corp.
[email protected]
PH 951-674-8100
Fax 951-674-3110
www.cnccontrols.com

[Al_The_Man]

......... because a standard CNC controller like a Fanuc doesn't adapt well to pre-existing equipment...............

I would take issue with this statement. It would imply that a machine would have to be built with Fanuc in mind.
So far I have have fitted both Fanuc and Mitsubishi to machines that were not even originally CNC!
The oldest being a 1954 40ft Gray Planer/miller, the reason the retrofit was considered was a modern replacement was over $1.5m.
Other machines have been other large bed mills and planers, many not previously CNC.
Al.

[camsoft]

That's not what we meant at all.

We meant pre-existing CNC equipment. Old amp drives, spindle drives, non Fanuc or Mitsubishi motors.

For a machine like the Gray Planer mill a Fanuc or Mitsubishi is good fit. Any non-CNC conventional or new machine tool is a candidate for Fanuc or Mitsubishi.


Tech Support
CamSoft Corp.
[email protected]
PH 951-674-8100
Fax 951-674-3110
www.cnccontrols.com

[nelZ]

First, the Camsoft techs are good and friendly. They have been helpful. Salesperson promised the world (documentation notwithstanding).

Documentation needs a total rewrite-throw out Q&A. At least index it somehow or sort it because reading it twice through isn't enough to remember everything or where it is. Take much more time explaining the syntax of their commands. Give examples as someone mentioned of a complete install and the code to run it (a mill and some other machine perhaps). Give more clues about how to do the screen functionality. The part counter keeps going up regardless of loading a new program - only resets when you shut down)

The machine motion is very precise.

If I change feedrate by clicking and dragging, everytime the mouse cursor is dragged across that little box, the feedrate is set to where it was - without clicking it !!! Like 2 hours later I come back and it's running 4% ! ya know?
Anyone else have this - Camsoft didn't know as of a year ago or so. I just work around it and tell my operators the same.

My latest - I'll be running a 5 tool program. 45 minutes. I'm working elsewhere in the shop and I hear it running....everything fine....but it simply stops execution, resets the program, and sits there spinning wherever it was - in the middle of a feed move, rapid - doesn't matter...no error codes...I'm still working on this. The restart didn't fix it Karl, thanks for your suggestions.

BIG question.....is would I buy it again. I certainly have machinery which could be more precise-and some which could be made CNC. I would honestly say I don't know.

The answer would be yes if they made use of their website and posted all the missing parts of their documentation which would help me make a pretty cool neat etc. control. (I got a barebones fast computer W/O sound card-who needs CNC's that talk back to you? It's bad enough that they throw tools at you and try to squish you against the wall)

I found this forum after I found Camsoft...