[Jay Kyle]

Hello all,
I've been busy looking at Solidworks CAM partners trying to find the "Holy Grail" for my shop.

I currently have a 3 axis mill with a manual tilting 4th axis CNCMT-201 - I guess this would be a poor man's 5th Axis. I also currently have a 2-axis lathe. The plan is to move into full mill/turn with C/Y/B-Axis, bar feeder, and possibly EDM in the next year or so and I want to get into a good CAM package now that I can grow with as I move into the higher-end equipment.

The things that earn high marks in my mind are: (in order):

1. Fully capable of handling my requirements as listed above
2. Steller G-code output
3. As much Solidworks Associativity as possible (without compromising the 2 points above)
4. Good support
5. Easy to use / rapid. I guess intuitive interface and feature recognition is the key here.


The hit list is:

Esprit
EdgeCam
Camworks
Mastercam
Gibbs

I think these are the big winners out there, just got to figure out which one now.

Any thoughts or experiences would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Jay

[High Seas]

Hello all,
I've been busy looking at Solidworks CAM partners trying to find the "Holy Grail" for my shop.

The hit list is:

Esprit
EdgeCam
Camworks
Mastercam
Gibbs

I think these are the big winners out there, just got to figure out which one now.

Have you seen this? If so was it too $$ or not well integrated?:
http://www.solidcam.com/index_en.html

Sorry if that adds to the choices/confusion - but reads well integrated and that may mean $$

[Jay Kyle]

Have you seen this? If so was it too $$ or not well integrated?:
http://www.solidcam.com/index_en.html

Sorry if that adds to the choices/confusion - but reads well integrated and that may mean $$

Point taken, I haven't done the due diligence to eliminate them so the revised hit list (in no particular order) is:

Esprit
EdgeCam
Camworks
Mastercam
Gibbs
SolidCam

Jay

[sdantonio]

The company I work for had the engineering staff spend a lot of time and money (a virutally unlimited budget, so $$ were not an obsticle) looking into different 3D CAD's and their integrated CAM's. On talking to the head of engineering, they all decided against solidworks, saying, it is a great 3D CAD, but there are no integrated CAM's that work well. One of the complaints I have seen here is SolidCAM being sloppy in it's approach and retract from profiling regions. That could just be the programmer too. I don't know for sure.

In my case, I have chosen visual mill pro and found it to be very good. But that's just my opinion.

The previous opinion regarding Solidworks and it's integrateded cam's is the opinion of a bunch of PhD engineers, for whatever that is worth.

Don't be hesitant about bringing in the different companies for demo's and putting them through their paces, sales people should be required to do something for their comission after all.

But, please let us all know what your research turns up.

[Jay Kyle]

1st up is Gibbs, I met with the dealer last night. The reputation they have here about the weird interface I think is undeserved - it was straight forward. They did a demo on one of their canned parts - The fellow doing the demo was actually one of their class instructors / G-Code programmer, and with the salesman sitting with us. It's always nice to gauge the quality of the instructors and training locally available.

I then gave them a part to model, he didn't finish it before I left but it was a complicated part for a quick demo (rifle floorplate / magazine holder) - and we were chatting about how to fixture it or run it through a mill/turn.

The Gibbs website show a series of screen shots that are positively scary - but the actual product looked much better.

Their strong points that I saw last night were:
1. Quite easy to use
2. Great local support, they have about 200 customers just in the local area (Alberta / B.C.) so a strong presence.
3. It appears to cover all the requirements I need.

Weak points I noticed:
1. Their feature recognition seemed weak.

I haven't had a chance to validate the code quality yet. So I've scored it and will move onto the next.

Jay

[Jay Kyle]

dropped
--------
SolidCam - no multi turret support
Camworks - no multi turret support
EdgeCam - no EDM support

[ltmquik]

I would suggest making the reseller of any of your software do a demo on a part that you have in house. That way you can first, see how the program actually works on a 'REAL' part and second, you get to see how much the reseller actually knows about 'thier' software. We use CAMWorks and SurfCAM. CAMWorks is ok however we mainly do VMC work. My opinion is that there is no one CAM package that will totally satisfy all of your needs.

[Jay Kyle]

All,
I had a sit down with the MasterCam rep - nice product!, and again solid representation in the local area (roughly 250 customers), complete with local support and a local training center. Also the tech school here (SAIT) teaches MasterCam so more of those skills in the local workforce.

Pros:
- Smart tool paths - optimized for production but easy on the machine.
- Quite flexible give a lot of control into the hands of the programmer, but also comes with intelligent defaults for the newbie (like me).

Cons:
- Does mill turn, but a little weak in this area. The rep talked about a "MATS" module coming out any time to cover off multi turret time sync and such.

Since the Gibbs and MasterCam dealers are here in town I gave each one a part to model. Each did it no problem, but the Mastercam rep's company also does fixture design & builds as part of their business. The rep was expert in this area, something I keenly need as part of productionalizing my designs.

I've also received a demo of Esprit - but I find there's only 6 customers in my local area. This product is quite high end. None of the other vendors can match their multi-turret multi-spindle-sync features. Some of the out of town schools teach this product.

BTW - I hear from the SolidCAM folks they are scheduled to release multi-turret capability in the fall.

.. the evaluation continues.

Jay

[JerryFlyGuy]

Jay how did your experiance w/ VisualMill go? I hear that V6 will have full 5axis capabilities. Not that, it fits your Mill/turn bill but I was just curious.

Jerry

[SWPM]

I use Surfcam and it seems to transfer files from solidwork verywell. I actually take Catia models and Iges files and open them in SW first and save as a sldprt file then open them in surf cam. this saves alot of time in converting elements. the only downfall is surfcam runs about 12'000-14'000 grand depending on options

[weaston]

Any feedback on solidcam?? our management are considering the option of a bundle purchase of solidworks with solidcam.

[Jay Kyle]

Weaston,
There are a lot of good cam programs out there, it starts to make my head spin. If you're doing pure mill work then you need to check out HSMWorks, a relatively new player, they are fully integrated like Camworks and SolidCam, not sure why they're not listed as a Gold partner yet. They have the most advanced toolpaths I've seen, Adaptive Clearing roughing strategies, etc. Lots of chatter about them in the MasterCAM forums. Apparently they (or the core folks) made an advanced CIMCO HSM pathways add-on for MasterCAM and decided to do their own package altogether.

SolidCAM has good strategies as well, but I'm told their lathe side is weak. I recall talking to the their VP of Sales/Marketing at a trade show and he said in the fall they plan to add mill/turn to the lineup.

Check out www.emastercam.com and search on SolidCAM, interesting what they have to say about it.

I've also had a good look at Esprit, powerful but I'm in Calgary and the support network is in California.

I've also taken quick look at NX CAM Express, I think this is worth a closer inspection as well - especially for beginners.

Other good ones that have a lot of respect from the MasterCAM folks: PowerMill, HyperMill and CAM Tool.

At this point I'm leaning toward MasterCAM, mostly because it's a well rounded package, and the rep (or rather the owner of the local company that handles MasterCAM) came to my house to install an evaluation copy on my laptop, and dropped off a pile of training manuals for me to work through. His company hosts classes about twice a month. As well he's a fixture expert and I really need that to fast track into manufacturing my parts (I'm not a job shop, rather a small manufacturer). He's been handling MasterCAM for years. He's an expert at the product, and has a good reputation in the area. Perhaps it's my good fortune but he has a very big client out my way so is always in the neighborhood. So with service like that it's hard not to go with him.

Jay

[cadcam]

Jay is that part of Inhouse-Soultions that you are dealing with?
There are some great folks over there.

Emastercam my other home site.you can find me as the same name there right at the top of the forum.

Keep us up to what you decide.

Jay

[Jay Kyle]

Jay is that part of Inhouse-Soultions that you are dealing with?
There are some great folks over there.

That's my understanding as well. No, this was Caledonian out of Edmonton, but they have a Calgary office as well.

So the choice has been made - Mastercam. My equipment hasn't arrived yet so I couldn't do a cut test with any of the software, unfortunate but not much I could do about it. I had to pick something based on the features I need and the opinions of others who have used the software, as well as the evals they all sent to me. My score sheet covers a number of weighted points, local support being a big one. Earlier I ruled out Solidcam due to not multi-turret support, I backed out of that requirement as I won't be at that level for at least a year. I put Solidcam back into the mix, the short list consisted of Espirt, Mastercam, Gibbs, Solidcam. These packages all score close for my needs. Based purely on features Esprit would have won, but I'm surrounded by Mastercam users in my circle of friends, and the schools - too hard to ignore.

There's a saying in the I.T. world, "You don't get fired for buying IBM" and Mastercam is the IBM of CAM.

I would say watch SolidCam as it matures (lathe, multi-turret), also keep an eye on HSMWorks to see where they go as a product.

Jay

[weaston]

Hi Jay Kyle,

Sounds like you did a lot of hunting for the right package good luck.

A quick question if you don't mind. Our company has just bought Solid Works (We still waiting to receive it) and Solid Cam with the Solid Cam Hole recognition add on. We won't be using Solid Cam for lathe programming and will only be using 2.5D milling. From your research, what aspects of solid cam did you find impressive?

Thanks.

[Jay Kyle]

..A quick question if you don't mind. Our company has just bought Solid Works (We still waiting to receive it) and Solid Cam with the Solid Cam Hole recognition add on. We won't be using Solid Cam for lathe programming and will only be using 2.5D milling. From your research, what aspects of solid cam did you find impressive?

The things that scored well for Solidcam where:

Features
=======
- Tight Integration with SolidWorks (though not as tight as Camworks, but tight enough)
- The ability to do XZCYB on mill/turn, support for back spindle (though no multi-turret yet)
- 5 Axis supposed to be good (I cannot verify this)
- Machine Preview, using solidworks to draw the machine
- Solidworks engine for verification
- Rendering again in solidworks
- Look and Feel was good
- Has HSM toolpaths like Trochodial, etc.
- LOTS of tutorials available for download on their website

Company
=======
- Corporate vision clearly articulated (this is one area that CAMWorks fell apart , I had no sense of where the company was going)
- Growth leader over the last 3 years (30%-40% per year - CIMData)

Things that didn't score well
=====================
- Solidcam charges as much as Mastercam but has fewer features
- There wasn't local support in my area (it would have been out of Seattle)
- Lathe was weak

Overall I thought it was a good package for the small shop where the CAD and CAM functions are closely related. Since I'm a small manufacturer rather than a job shop, one of my top priorities was REALLY good and fast toolpaths - this is one area Mastercam outshines the others - except perhaps HSMWorks (from my very limited observation of it).

When all else is equal, the three most important criteria for me are:

1. Quality of the toolpaths
2. Quality of the support
3. Where's the company going

Jay