[jayd85]

yes, I am genuinely interested in what others have to say ,,,

yes, I can be insulting, and a few other choice words too ,,

yes, I strongly disagree with companies forcing software rental, on it's customers

So... why did you start this thread in first place? Are you genuinely interested in what others have to say or are you just going to triumphantly proclaim your point of view and then insult others who have a different opinion?


C|

[jayd85]

if it's not broke don't fix it, I still use some software on a DOS machine, when needed

DON'T FORGET Y'ALL

Unless you keep your old hardware safe from WIN10 you WILL be upgrading your SW. Prior to SW2015 SP4 you will not be able to use Win10. My version worked for a little while then it fritzed out on new WIN10 machines. You won't get support. So again, in my case. $300 a year or another $1500 (Now that dassault changed their upgrade fees likely more) to use new hard ware.

[jayd85]

I would have to disagree, renting is always much more expensive in the long run, you have your facts mixed up.

Renting a car, renting a house, renting a tool, renting software, all will cost you more,

Removing an option to buy something that I have purchased for over 20 years, now forced to rent it only, really offends me as a long time customer, not sure I have ever come across a situation like this, and I personally find it offensive, and will flat out refuse to do it.

So you bought your home but paid a mortgage for probably 15-30 yrs. During which time you probably paid nearly twice your homes value with interest. Why didnt you just pay cash for your home and SAVE money instead of letting the bank laugh at you while they rake you over the coals. Yes, its pretty much the same concept.

I cant justify the out of pocket expense to buy some of these programs outright. I suppliment my career using cad/cam but it isnt the center of what i do. I feel there is a overwhelming number of others like me and the software companies have done their research. They know they will get more people to buy if the commitment isnt so harsh.

[victorofga]

not the renting the real issue, but the way as they want..

corel can be rented by random monthly base... means you pay for a month use it... then if don't need don't pay... pay next time when you need..

with autocad the problem is, the version 10 (in 1990) already was a very complete cad.. for drafting that had everything..

so after that its really hard to explain invest over and over into new versions..

I think fusion will be affordable, when you need randomly more seat of cadcam... solidworks, not counting on student versions, very much costly.. so simply buying more seat of... sure not affordable..
then for simpler task theres fusion..

just my 2 cent

[daniellyall]

dudes fusion can do most of what you said it cant do, as for it getting hacked that's in the 1000 year range, also they have to find it first in the cloud that's why they have romeing IP addresses, also the DOD use the same farm as where fusion is, so getting hacked in the cloud, more chances of getting hit by a bus.
If they wonted your files they would hit your computer. also you can use fusion off line for a time, you can load files and remove files off line, you can export .stl and .dxf. and if you have fusion 360 you have Autocad 360 as well, plus a few other's that can be used free. and does auto cad and solid works have cam that you can bounce back change a demention then hit re gen tool paths in two clicks.

if you through out what you expect fusion to do and use fusion the fusion way it work's very well. if you try to use it the non fusion way you will have one hell of a time.

also that blog post is a little bit out where is the low cost programs, and the other programs they own and some of them in that list are on there way out.

I have been using fusion for A year and it does some cool ****

[jayd85]

Tried to use fusion offline, it stopped working, the free version will not save to dxf or stl,


… there were more than 250 people killed and 20,000 injured in bus-related crashes in 2009. From 2000-2007, there were 1,093 fatal accidents involving large buses, resulting in 1,315 fatalities and 3,471 injuries.” [These fatality and injury numbers include pedestrians or people riding in other motor vehicles.] -

Bus crashes in the United States: What does the research say? - Journalist's Resource Journalist's Resource

dudes fusion can do most of what you said it cant do, as for it getting hacked that's in the 1000 year range, also they have to find it first in the cloud that's why they have romeing IP addresses, also the DOD use the same farm as where fusion is, so getting hacked in the cloud, more chances of getting hit by a bus.
If they wonted your files they would hit your computer. also you can use fusion off line for a time, you can load files and remove files off line, you can export .stl and .dxf. and if you have fusion 360 you have Autocad 360 as well, plus a few other's that can be used free. and does auto cad and solid works have cam that you can bounce back change a demention then hit re gen tool paths in two clicks.

if you through out what you expect fusion to do and use fusion the fusion way it work's very well. if you try to use it the non fusion way you will have one hell of a time.

also that blog post is a little bit out where is the low cost programs, and the other programs they own and some of them in that list are on there way out.

I have been using fusion for A year and it does some cool ****

[jayd85]

I agree,

Adobe rental is quite reasonable, but I believe Autodesk is out of line with this,

not the renting the real issue, but the way as they want..

corel can be rented by random monthly base... means you pay for a month use it... then if don't need don't pay... pay next time when you need..

with autocad the problem is, the version 10 (in 1990) already was a very complete cad.. for drafting that had everything..

so after that its really hard to explain invest over and over into new versions..

I think fusion will be affordable, when you need randomly more seat of cadcam... solidworks, not counting on student versions, very much costly.. so simply buying more seat of... sure not affordable..
then for simpler task theres fusion..

just my 2 cent

[devo9er]

I would have to disagree, renting is always much more expensive in the long run, you have your facts mixed up.

Renting a car, renting a house, renting a tool, renting software, all will cost you more,

Removing an option to buy something that I have purchased for over 20 years, now forced to rent it only, really offends me as a long time customer, not sure I have ever come across a situation like this, and I personally find it offensive, and will flat out refuse to do it.

You misinterpreted my point. Of course purchasing a home is cheaper. What i was trying to say is that you had to get a mortgage because you couldnt afford to buy your home outright on the spot. Over which course you likely paid double your homes appraised value. I, as well as many others cant afford a $15k cad/cam package outright and therefore paying monthly makes more sense.

Yes, your home will have value after its paid off. Thats great. Nobody is going to buy your 10 yr old cad/cam software once you're done with it whats it matter if you own it or not at that point..

[ger21]

I agree,

Adobe rental is quite reasonable, but I believe Autodesk is out of line with this,

If your talking about AutoCAD, then yes, spending $1800/year for incremental improvements is a lot. I think they'll lose a lot of customers, but the ones that remain, paying the higher costs, will probably offset it.

But with the emergence of Fusion 360, at a very fair price, is something totally different. I'm locked into Fusion 360 at $25/month for life, and for that I get features you can't get anywhere else without spending thousands of dollars.

[Paul-JB]

To what devo points out, I don't mind the concept of software "rental" fee provided its reasonable. I understand though why some might not agree. There is definitely value in always being current plus the fact that bugs and glitches somehow grudgingly became the norm with most software, why would you want to be stuck with a given release? That said, having my data stored by big brother in the cloud or mandatory internet connection to run is not something I'm comfortable with yet especially if it was for business.

[daniellyall]

for people who do NDA work that's what inventor is for, jayd85 can you prove the free version does not put out .DXF or .STL. don't bother answering that question, the of line is a limited thing 15 days

for $300 a year show me something better

[jayd85]

you know the old saying........... if it's too good to be true then it probably isn't

IMO the price will be increased substantially, when enough content is saved in the fusion format extension, making it more difficult for the user to switch,

for people who do NDA work that's what inventor is for, jayd85 can you prove the free version does not put out .DXF or .STL. don't bother answering that question, the of line is a limited thing 15 days

for $300 a year show me something better

[barbter]

Autodesk can swivel - they are not getting one more penny from my hard earned ever.
I'm keeping my perpetual licences and freezing them. AutoCAD LT suite - we use the 2D for a lot of concept design and fixture design and process drawings and this hasn't really changed in 5 years. I used to stay on maintenance and upgrade every coupls of years.
We use Inventor for primarily solid translation (catia or whatever) as we use Mastercam because we're predominantly a bit-making shop.
I want my software on my PC that I can use anywhere at anytime without internet connection yada yada.

[victorofga]

barbter

that is the point.. autocad so great from beginning that looks almost impossible to developing real new features..
also autocad has so large number of users, that no other program has..
by this you will get answer for everything on many forums..

this fusion can be used as free, also as prepaid and you get more feature.. example saving models files on your hard disc, and transfer to programs what working without internet connection..

not youre the only whos not feeling comfortable with this cloud base..

[bgolash]

Hi all
I am concerned that once you invest in a autodesk product you are trapped. As an example Fusion 360 is free at the moment. I don`t believe
it will be free forever. Nor do I believe the subscription fee will be reasonable. Just looking at all the products Autodesk sells most would
make your head spin. Im concerned to have a large library of parts drawn and then as a example find out that Fusion is $100 per month.
I`m starting to think going with Solidworks which still sell a perpetual licenses is the way to go. If I purchase Inventor LT for 380 per year.
In ten years it equals the cost of Solidworks. The benefit is that solidworks can do assemblies but Inventor LT can not. I would not purchase
a maintenance contact. I believe with a product as mature as solidworks it already have all the functionality I would ever need. So having the
most current version would be a waste of time. If you have thoughts that my logic is faulty , please reply

[dharmic]

I agree, hate subscription model stuff.

BUT

To expect that you'll still be using the license you bought today in ten years is unrealistic. Hardware is being made cheaper and less reliable all the time, so in 5 years tops your new computer today will need replacing. And you won't be able to get hardware that still runs (for example) Windows 10. And the CAD software you bought today won't run on Windows 14.

Sadly, I think 5 years is about the maximum you can expect out of hardware and the software license to go with it these days. Of course, you might be lucky - but counting on more than 5 years in any budgetary calculations is being optimistic, I think.

Some vendors do something quite nice which is allow you to up and downgrade your subscription license on the fly. So I have base CAD and, this month, I need to do some 3 axis machining so I buy a month's worth of 3 axis CAM module. In a couple month's time I need to do some 5 axis stuff - so I buy the 5 axis upgrade for a month. That's pretty neat. PTC, as far as I know, even let you mix temporary license upgrades on a subscription model with a perpetual base license and that is very, very cool.

What scares me - and this has happened in other markets - is when the vendor of a subscription based license goes tits up or decides to retire a product, EVERYONE is screwed. No license servers mean no-one has working software anymore, instantly you're out of action.

My big concern with Fusion is that the big "free" carrot being dangled in everyone's face isn't going to be there forever. So here's a product I'd use only because it's free, I don't like it enough to actually pay for it, but it's free so let's play. I invest months/years of learning time into it and suddenly it's $100 a month. A lot of people will pay because they can't be bothered learning something else.

I dunno.

[ger21]

I know people that are moving away from Solidworks, due to the cost of maintenance and upgrades. If you skip any upgraded, you have to pay for all the ones you skipped whenever you do decide to upgrade.

As an example Fusion 360 is free at the moment. I don`t believe
it will be free forever. Nor do I believe the subscription fee will be reasonable

I also don't believe that it will remain free, but I also don't believe that the price will change much. If they increase the price much, they will lose 75% of their current user base

They originally had two versions of Fusion. The standard version at the current price, and an Ultimate version at $1600/year. If anything, I would think that they would bring back the ultimate version, or something similar rather than substantially raising the price for everyone.

I was fortunate enough to take advantage of a special they had in December 2014, that allowed you to lock into the Ultimate version for life at the $300/year price. They gave us this year for free after eliminating the Ultimate version.

These are just my guesses, as nobody really knows what direction Fusion will ultimately take, as in a lot of ways it competes directly with Inventor, at a fraction of the price.

[ger21]

Hardware is being made cheaper and less reliable all the time, so in 5 years tops your new computer today will need replacing. And you won't be able to get hardware that still runs (for example) Windows 10. And the CAD software you bought today won't run on Windows 14.

You can get more than 5 years out of a PC, if you build a PC from high end components. Expect to spend $2500-$3000 on a PC, though. But you do run into OS issues when running PC's for 5+ years.

What scares me - and this has happened in other markets - is when the vendor of a subscription based license goes tits up EVERYONE is screwed. No license servers mean no-one has working software anymore, instantly you're out of action.

I don't see this as a concern with AutoDesk, as they are one of if not the largest player in the market. They've also been around forever.

[cyclestart]

cad/cam 25 years ago only served a practical purpose in industry. The number of potential users now is larger and as 3d printing matures who knows the potential.
I'm hoping Autodesk is looking at this and decided to radically shake up it's it's marketing.model.
I signed up early to get the $300/yr lock-in despite qualifying for the free license. Hoping for the best, so far it's been an awesome deal.
.

[Paul-JB]

I prefer owning but for better or worse I believe cloud based, software rental is the way its all heading. There are many upsides unfortunately the holy grail for them is to trap you by whatever means into their product. Having used Inventor at least 10 yrs (since its inception in 90's until around 2005 when I switched us over to SW) I can tell you unless they did some major improvements there is now way I would go backwards to anything based on inventor. Do they still use that ridiculous/infuriating .ipj file and "project" structure?
Change a file name or location and its cherry tree from hell resolving links. No thanks. I keep one Inventer seat active in case we need to do anything on legacy projects but me and my guys definitely dread those times.