[Whizbang]

Hey,

So I am torn on which machine is best for me. I currently have an NM-200 series1 Novakon that I play around with, I mostly use aluminum. However the NM-200 doesn’t quiet have the power, durability and over capability I want/need . I want one machine to be able to easily machine aluminum, or steel. I also would like a machine to be capable of 3D machining. My interest in 3D machining isn’t for production, just a custom job. Does anyone have examples of 3D machining they have done or seen from a Partner series machine 1990 to 2000? I like the idea that some of the Milltronics can be wired to run on 220 single phase, I am also looking at possibly getting a HAAS TM2, although expensive. Thoughts? Feedback?

Can Milltronics Partners machine all materials? Or are they just for aluminum and plastics? How does rigidity compare? I have contacted Milltronics to ask about machines service history or speed and so far haven’t been impressed. What is customer service like for parts or programming issues? Lastly I will be using HSM inventor for kicking out Gcode, does anyone have experience with HSM tool paths with these era Milltronics. DO they work well and have sufficient look ahead buffering. Are there any models to shy away from or if I can find a good deal on one that meeds something should I go for the good deal?

Thanks,
Whizbang

[Brian L]

I can't comment on how good the look ahead is as I wasn't doing very complicated work and speeds and feeds weren't off the charts.... like 60ipm was my top feed rate if I remember correctly. I don't do a lot of 3D work, but what I have done has been accomplished without too much fuss and muss. I don't have the software to really use the 3D as it should be.

So, machine is a 1992 Partner 4 with the Centurion 5 control and an early A version at that. Machine will run circles around any Novakon or Tormach style machine, even as old as it is, the machine uses servo drives, not steppers and has a 5hp spindle drive, you can actually hog stuff out with it. I routinely run a 2" shell mill in aluminum at .150" to .200" depth per pass, pretty much full width of cut, 3000rpm and between 80 and 100ipm... and that's kind of taking it easy as I don't have an enclosure, just shower curtains and the chips tend to melt through the curtains.

I have a bunch of videos on youtube of a few 3D parts I made. One was a mold I made out of MDF to make a cast rubber part.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i--TSSlg-iU

This one was a large part, about 24" long, 11" wide and 4" thick, they were positive parts that got a rubber mold made around them to then in turn cast refractory cement parts out of for a stove concept.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6MBSVQFsvc

Once you are on my youtube area, you can see quite a few other parts and videos of 3D work and regular parts.

I wouldn't call the knee mill version like I have the most rigid machine, of course mine is pretty clapped out, been well used and abused. I think you would find the VMC style partners a lot more stout. But, machining any steel parts would be a non-issue as far as I'm concerned, I don't do a lot of steel as I hate the sharp chips and design all my parts out of aluminum best I can, but it will do anything you need to do.

As for the factory helping out.... you are asking them to support 20 year old or older machines, so not a lot of help. they were able to give me service history with the serial number of my machine before I purchased it, and had the original parameters lists. Some of the parts I needed, because the iron was made in Taiwan, and they don't use that vendor any longer, you are kind of on your own. Fortunately they used a lot of off the shelf parts, like lube pumps, way wipers and such, that with a little looking you can track down and source just about anywhere now.

I do like that the software is PC based, although it's ancient PC by today's standards, DOS and 286 motherboards. My machine was DOA in some guys garage without power for 5 years. Batteries on the motherboard had leaked and destroyed the board, with the help of a friend and ZZZZ on this board, we were able to rebuild the computer and upgrade a few things, like a 486 motherboard and 2gb of compact flash card for the memory and software instead of the Eproms of the original system. Simple things like I lost the power supply on the computer, it wasn't a call to Fanuc for proprietary components that cost $1000 or more, it was a run to Fry's Electronics for a new PC power supply for $25.

I also feel that the Milltronics operating system is pretty clean and efficient, and extremely reliable so far for me, no strange hiccups and never ever a scrapped part because the software went buggy... which I can't say for any Mach 3 driven machine I have played with. I come from an aerospace machine shop background and am used to "real" controls, like Fanuc, Fadal, and a few others, and "industrial" controls just don't do weird things for no reason like Mach will do almost daily.

Hope that gives you some feel for things...

[Whizbang]

Tha is Brian L for your feedback. Its definately good to see what you have done.

I will be using steel and aluminum, perhaps some plastics as well. Does anyone else have videos with an enclosed machine to demonstrate how the machine handles all types of machine jobs?

Thanks,
Whizbang

[Brian L]

Look on youtube

[allen mullis]

I have 4 partner 1 mills that I use exclusively for hard milling D-2 tool steel at 58-60 HRC with a 5" face mill with 10 inserts. On a daily production basis. You will have no problem with steel.They are rigid and accurate enough as you can reasonably justify. I have an RW-15 that I do the same production job on as well, while it is approximately 3 minutes faster on cycle time over a 34 minute cycle run time due to faster ramps and rapids, it is no more accurate and the finish is the same. Before I converted the partner 1's to production, I ran the parts on an MB-24 and an MB-19. Before the MB mills I developed the process on a prototrak DPM. I currently run on the partners for a number of reasons, but the bottom line is that they produce acceptable accurate parts, are easy to maintain, easy to clean, small footprint, easy to move, easy to upgrade, well supported, easy to program and the price is right.

[sportybob]

Hi Wizbang, You will find the P1 machines, very capable and stout machines. easy to program, can run on single phase if needed. fits in most garages, it will need a 30Amp circuit. Allen runs his P1's as hard as any one I know of. he makes them "scream". He pushes feeds and speeds HARD.

"A bit of history" The P " Partner" series grew to the VM series. If you are looking for a P machine, look for the -B control,( easiest to update) ( -A controls least easiest to update) ( YES FOLKS, I can now update non - ( CAT 900 controls to SBC updates., at least until until my mother boards run out, ) the - A control uses the version 1 acro loop cards ( like the CAT 900 control, the CAT 900 has a back plane board) ( think EARLY SBC ) the -a was the first to use " normal" 286 / 386 mother boars that had 8 bit ISA slots ( like the CAT 900 controls) , I have a SBC mother board that will work with the 8 bit acros). The "-B control used a version 2 Acro ( 16 bit) The 8 bit cards do not fit into a 16 bit slot, Look for the -B serial # on the bottom of the control ( black back in the electrical panel)
Also stay away from P1D machines with a 6 pocket "plunger type" tool changer, these have conical tip pointing up from the tool platter.

The P1 has several variants ( each model had improvements over the last,) A thru J A couple A's out there , no B's and C''s that I am aware of, lots of D's, E's, F's are out there, F added a longer spindle nose spindle with 5 bearings, G version made a change from 25MM rails to 35mm rails, H added, a new "tall" enclosure, J added a new long nose spindle with 6 coolant nozzles and DC controlled relays, J was a transition from the partner series to the VM series and for all practical matters a P1J and VM-16A are the same machine. The VM-16 went thru at least version "K". more improvements, C6, C7 controls , tool changers, spindle speeds, etc, etc etc, the same applies to other P series to VM series machines, different travels define different models.

That's the "quick and dirty on the Partner and VM series machines.
The short of it, you can not find a better first, second, third machine for the money.

Consider the Milltronics as a "Dodge, Ford, Chevy of machines. Not a Ferrari, If running at 150MPH is OK, then a Milltronics will be a GOOD bet, If you need to run at 250 MPH+ then look for a 500K machine.

please PM me if you have questions.

Sportybob

[Whizbang]

Thanks everyone for the insight. Its been helpful and a good read.

I think I have decided on a Milltronics Partner 6 circa 1995 w/4th axis rotary. I really want one with 24" of travel in the Y and a spindle speed of at least 5000rpm. From what I can find the machine is said to be 8ft W x 8ft D x8.5ft tall when fully assembled and are approximately 7500 lbs. My question now is how much of that can disassemble for transport? I have a UT914 Triple L trailer (its a drop deck trailer). I know the capacity of the trailer can hold the machine but getting the machine on is a concern. The deck is 14ft long and 5ft 10" wide and the surrounding rail is 2ft tall. I know the base is more narrow but will the enclosure clear the rail? Can the enclosure come off enough to clear the rail?

I also have a couple more questions:
Did Milltronics stay consistent with their date of manufacture format through all series Partner mills till the VM 16 and 17 came out?

Are there any easy telltale signs as to what servos a machine had (i.e. Ac or DC)?

Does anyone know exactly how many years they made the Partner 6?

THanks,
Whizbang

[allen mullis]

I had a partner 6 from 1996. Yes the date codes stayed consistent. I think it would be worth your while to rent a deck over to transport. Even if you removed all the enclosure, setting it down inside a 2' drop would be a challenge to say the least. Besides, what is your time worth? Between taking it apart, cleaning the rock base and all the mating fiberglass surfaces to re-seal, removing and installing the door tracks, etc. you will have at least a full day wrapped up in putting it back together with help. Not a one man job, more like a 3 man job. two to place and hold, one to bolt down. Also, since the bolts have been in for 20+ years, the odds that you will have trouble with at least a few are pretty high. It is pretty easy to tell if it is a DC machine. Open the electrical cabinet, if you see two large blue capacitors above the axis drive cards, it is a DC machine. There were a ton of variations on the axis drive and spindle drive options around that time. Mine had Emerson AC axis drives and parker motors, a 3 speed Custom Servo Motors spindle drive and motor. The partner 6 was replaced by the VM-24, just as the Partner 1 was replaced by the VM-16. I would guess they made them until 1998, but Sportybob would be the one to ask on that. One thing to be aware of, the lubrication maintenance is kind of a nightmare. The ball screws require removing the front and rear, left and right, way covers and taking a handful of grease and slathering onto the screws, then jogging full travel in all directions slowly so the grease makes its way into the ball nuts. The linear guides are no fun either, youll need to take the steel angles off the front and rear of the table and trim down the nose of a grease gun to get the X rail blocks, the Y will involve laying upside down in the sides of the enclosure, the lower Z blocks aren't fun either. Mine was accurate and relatively fast with 700 IPM rapids and rigid tapping that was standard with the CSM spindle. Do check the condition of the counter-weight chains. Much easier to change before they break. If you have excessive backlash, start at the thrust bearings, I had to change X,Y and Z on mine. I think they were 7204 angular contact bearings with .002" shim in between. Post some pictures!

[sportybob]

There is a AC drive variant that also used the "Blue Capacitors" they used Servo Dynamics AC drives and CSM motors. Look under the X axis table, if the motor is round, it is a DC machine. if the motor is square it is a AC machine.

Before moving the machine, move the Z axis down until the through holes in the counter weight is visible ( it may have block off plates covering the holes in the sides of the column) insert a steal pipe in the holes and then raise the head till the counter weight rests on the pipe / rod. a couple of pies of 3/4" ready rod and nuts work pretty good. When you get it in place move the rods to the bottom holes in the column. That way if the chain breaks it will help protect the cables running thru the base of the column. They may already have them in the base.
Then center the X and Y axis, then block the Z axis using a block of wood or plywood in the T slots, block it up behind the spindle nose.
Some machine had the auto lube option, if there is a oiler mounted on the side of the column the it has auto lube.
When the need arises to pull a ball screw, I install brass fittings and a 6" brake line bent so that it goes up and over the ball screw then point it out and install a grease fitting, Z axis just needs a 90 degree brass fitting and a straight grease fitting.


sportybob

[Whizbang]

So I need some clarification or explanation. You guys said that the VM24 replaced the Partner 6. If that is the case why does the VM24 have a such a larger hp motor and weigh so much more? When I look online I have found several different ads like the 1st one listed below for a Partner 6 that states it has a 7.5hp motor and overall weight of 7500lbs, but the ads for the VM24 all show a 20hp motor and total weight if 11,000lbs. In both cases the travel is the same.

Partner 6: 520 Machinery - For Sale: Used 1995 Milltronics Partner 6
VM24: Machine Monster: Milltronics Model VM24 4-Axis CNC Vertical Machining Center

Are the specs I am finding correct? The links above are just examples but I have found multiple for both models that state the same. What I want is a machine with the exact specs as listed for the Partner 6 because this will still be moveable by me in my shop if ever need be. And I think I can find someone locally with a fork truck to lift the partner 6 machine off a trailer, however in my small town that would not likely be the case for the VM24.

[sportybob]

Hi Wizbang, When Milltronics designed there "all new" machines, they dropped the "Partner" and named them the VM ( vertical machine) . except for the travels the partner and VM are entirely different machines.. Centurion 6 controls, VM15 and 16's had 7.5 HP as standard, the larger machines had 15Hp standard, with options of 20hp CSM multi speed spindle drives counter weights went away, and replaced by a pneumatic "counter weight.
later VM' had other further updates, Yaskawa AC servos, Yaskawa spindle motors and drives, available swing arm tool changers.counet weight went away ans was replaced by bigger AC motors and drives. About 2004, the machine design changed again, Cent 7 controls, bigger / heavier frames coolant thru spindles, etc, etc., They continue to evolve., 7200, 8000, 8200, 8200-b controls, Some time this year they should be releasing the 9000 series control,

As with most manufactures be they Cars, computers, motorcycles etc, they are always updating designs.

The Partner series is a viable machine and fits where a lot of machines wont, and can run on single phase.

PS the link above no longer shows the P6 machine, ( cause you bought it ???)

I usually have a line on used and rebuilt Milltronics machines. PM me for more info.

sportybob

[allen mullis]

The specs you are finding are accurate. When I bought my P6, I could move it around in my shop with my 4000# military lift and a set of fork extensions, but be aware, this is a military lift. When it was loaded on my trailer at the time I bought it, the rigger had a modern 8K lift that wanted to nose dive with it. An 8K would be the minimum, and tying on some extra counter-weight wouldn't be a bad idea. The VM-24 has a wider rail spread on the Y axis in particular. This results in a much more rigid machine. Also the column is heavier, a lot heavier. If you had a P-1 and a P-6 and maybe an old VMD-30 lined up side by side, you might notice that the actual castings that made up the frame of the machines are the same from the smallest to the biggest. The same is true to a limited degree today, a VM-16 shares the same casting for the base and column with the VM-20, only on the VM-16 the column is set forward in a different notch on the base casting. The partner 6 ( at least mine was ) is a good and capable machine. As sportybob said, it will fit where other machines will not. Where else are you going to find a machine with 24" Y travel that will still go inside a garage? My Partner 6 paid for my VM-24.

[Whizbang]

Thanks for the info guys. To confirm, the partner 6 in the link is not mine, unfortunately. It is the exact machine I am looking for but I don't have unlimited funds so I am searching for a decent deal. I would like to see some videos of that era machine cutting detailed parts. I heard they are popular among mold makers and they can do great mold work. I live in the Midwest so if u guys hear of any at a reasonable price I'd appreciate any leads

[moldcore]

I use a 1999 VM24 for mold making but wouldn't use anything older. They're just too slow. I had a Partner I with a Centurion 5 prior and it was painful to watch it struggle with 3D work. I eventually updated the Cent6 controller on the VM24 to a SBC motherboard with Ethernet about 4 or 5 years ago and now it's as smooth as silk. I liked it so much I purchased a new VM20 about 3 years ago but it was a real disappointment, so a sold it last year with less than 600 hrs on it. The 8200 controller was a real miss and the machine came from the factory way out of square. They eventually fixed the squareness problem it but the controller made it undesirable to use for what we do here.

[Whizbang]

Thanks for the feedback. The primary reason I want the partner 6 is because I can move it if necessary. Also, I don't think there is any way with my residential eletrical hook up that I can power the VM24 and as far as I know there was never a VM24 that could run on single phase.

As for the controller, is there a way to upgrade it to something that can handle 3D maching?

[Brian L]

You can pretty much run any machine from single phase with a Phase Perfect Digital converter. They are a bit pricey, but you get 3 phase as good or better than the utility company. They can be had in 10hp, 20hp and 30hp models.

[nicknackks]

This is a video of my 1991 Partner 5 Cutting a 3d bevel on some custom knives. I did the Cen 6 upgrade after I bought the machine. We are running on single phase with a homemade rotary phase converter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaTd...ature=youtu.be

This was recorded/edited by the guy that I mill the knives for. If you have some 3D tool paths you want me to try on my machine I can run them and video them for you.

[moldcore]

Thanks for the feedback. The primary reason I want the partner 6 is because I can move it if necessary. Also, I don't think there is any way with my residential eletrical hook up that I can power the VM24 and as far as I know there was never a VM24 that could run on single phase.

As for the controller, is there a way to upgrade it to something that can handle 3D maching?

I'm not saying you can't do 3D with a Cent 5, it's just slow. It could easily handle what is shown in the video cutting the knives. I did it for a couple of years with the programs run from a 3 1/2" floppy drive. Upgrading to a Cent 6 may require upgrading the servos and drives.

[nicknackks]

We did the Cen 6 upgrade and were able to reuse the drives. I know the knives are a simple toolpath, that's why I offered to run a more complex path for whizbang if he had something he wanted me to try.

[Whizbang]

Few more questions...

Is it worthwhile or even possible to upgrade a SBC (single board controller)? I've been reading about them and trying to understand the different controllers; while I'm not doing production work, I would like the ability to perform 3 Axis work. I have Bobcad Cam and the original Autodesk 2014/2015 HSM from college so I can CAM things, but is the limiting factor the on-board memory of the machine? Does the drip feed really help or only just give you more space for programs? Is the real limiting factor for these machines the lack of “look ahead” based on the small amount of controller memory. Can most machines handle adding a 4th axis? Is the hardware there or easily added to the controller or is a all new controller needed?

I am currently trying to contact and sort out machinery movers in the Detroit or Toledo area. If I could find one that confirms that they could even get a truck and fork lift up my drive I would consider a VM24 but right now the Partner 6 is the most realistic to offload and get into my garage. Yes I said garage, I know... I just want a toy that can do a little bit of everything for my prototyping. I may do short runs, but never mass production. I still have a day job.

Thanks nicknackks for the offer. As of right now I don't have anything CAM'd up and ready to send but I may soon if you don't mind.

Also, thanks everyone for all the valuable input.

Lastly, the link below is for a machine that is a good representation of what I currently have. I want to be sure that what I get is better than what I have and I hope someone can confirm a Partner 6 would be an improvement. My machine runs MACH and I have had issue with it going rogue while machining. The footage is largely pockets and sloped surfaces but there is some 3 axis machining at the end.

https://youtu.be/F5WwcXA7JV0

Thanks,
Whizbang