[tmarks11]

I liked my 1100 plenty, but am now looking at used Haas. Surely there is a market between the two.

Not sure exactly what you think is the "market between the two". HAAS machines run the gamut from smaller than the Tormach to significantly bigger.

Are you talking about a Haas Mini Mill (which has less travel than a Tormach 1100 for 3x the price, although with significantly more mass, rigidity and power), or a VF-1 (which has twice the work volume for 4x the price)? Or are you talking about price tag (midway between $19k for the Tormach and $29k for a used mini-mill)?

Are you looking for something with larger travels, more mass,and more power than Tormach, but cheaper than a Haas? I think that once Tormach starts adding any of these things, the price for the (New) Tormach will be more than the price of the used Haas. There is not much room for Tormach's price to grow.

An 1100 with stand, enclosure, ATC/PDB is almost $19k.

What price-point for a larger machine due you think would still make it attractive over a used Haas? $23-25k for the mill, stand, enclosure, ATC/PDB? And what features do you think that extra money should buy (linear rails, increased mass including integrated cast-iron stand, etc)?

These are serious questions.

I am serious

[Gilmax]

Do you honestly believe the cost of the whole machine will scale linearly with size?? What about the labor to assemble and test it? Or shipping cost? Try pricing some of the major components, and you'll find there is very little difference in the cost of MOST of the major components. Most of the cost in a ballscrew is in the nut. Adding or removing a few inches in screw length makes very little difference. Will precision machining the castings be 50% less because they're 50% the size? Will the PC be cheaper because it's going on a smaller machine? How about the other electronics - VFD, breakout board, power supplies, motor drivers? They will likely all be virtually identical to the larger machine. A 50% reduction in size could easily result in only a 15-20% reduction in production cost.

This is what I said

ts expensive because they simply can get away with it. Just think, $4300 is 63% of $6800, the base price of a 770. It's only $650 less than a 440. Could it really cost that much? Is it worth it? For some people it is. That is why I am curious to see the price for the 440 ATC..

I didn't mention anything about the price of machines scaling linearly with size and I don't think they would, which is why I don't expect the ATC for the 440 to be much cheaper than for their other mills. I was just comparing the price of the 770( $6800) to the price of the ATC upgrade ($4300) because it just seem like quite a lot of money for what you get when you compare it to the cost of the mill and consider all that goes into it.

[CadRhino]

Good points
I looked at getting a used haas first but since I was a beginner and knew the service calls on a used machine could be questionable/expensive,I went the tormach route.
I think the next jump from a tormach is a new haas vf-2 for 50-60k

Not sure exactly what you think is the "market between the two". HAAS machines run the gamut from smaller than the Tormach to significantly bigger.

Are you talking about a Haas Mini Mill (which has less travel than a Tormach 1100 for 3x the price, although with significantly more mass, rigidity and power), or a VF-1 (which has twice the work volume for 4x the price)? Or are you talking about price tag (midway between $19k for the Tormach and $29k for a used mini-mill)?

Are you looking for something with larger travels, more mass,and more power than Tormach, but cheaper than a Haas? I think that once Tormach starts adding any of these things, the price for the (New) Tormach will be more than the price of the used Haas. There is not much room for Tormach's price to grow.

An 1100 with stand, enclosure, ATC/PDB is almost $19k.

What price-point for a larger machine due you think would still make it attractive over a used Haas? $23-25k for the mill, stand, enclosure, ATC/PDB? And what features do you think that extra money should buy (linear rails, increased mass including integrated cast-iron stand, etc)?

These are serious questions.

I am serious

[mountaindew]

Good points
I looked at getting a used haas first but since I was a beginner and knew the service calls on a used machine could be questionable/expensive,I went the tormach route.
I think the next jump from a tormach is a new haas vf-2 for 50-60k

I see 20 year old used vf2 machines sell for $25k.
I just cant see spending that much money and not having a shop with 3 phase power to run it.
The 20 hp spindle would get the tools turning and x,y,z axis drives that can lift your car off the floor would make for a powerful step up from a tormach!

[sin_arms]

I see 20 year old used vf2 machines sell for $25k.
I just cant see spending that much money and not having a shop with 3 phase power to run it.
The 20 hp spindle would get the tools turning and x,y,z axis drives that can lift your car off the floor would make for a powerful step up from a tormach!

You just need to watch auctions, I picked up a Fadal VMC10 for 1/3 of what I have in my Tormach. I didn't mind buying a phase converter after a deal like that.

[cmantunes]

And the 10K RPM spindle is a huge advantage...

According to Tormach, spindle is constant torque. This means that at 1000 RPM, one gets less than 60W of power. Doesn't sound very appealing to me.

[SCzEngrgGroup]

According to Tormach, spindle is constant torque. This means that at 1000 RPM, one gets less than 60W of power. Doesn't sound very appealing to me.

All 3-phase motors are approximately constant torque below base speed, and constant power above base speed, when driven by a VFD. That includes the 770 and 1100.

Regards,
Ray L.

[cmantunes]

All 3-phase motors are approximately constant torque below base speed, and constant power above base speed, when driven by a VFD. That includes the 770 and 1100.

There is no "above base speed" for the 440, max speed is the same as base speed. The thing is strictly constant torque.

EDIT:

I asked Tormach on Youtube, after they posted the promotional video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ubb99FU3F_s

[SCzEngrgGroup]

There is no "above base speed" for the 440, max speed is the same as base speed. The thing is strictly constant torque

According to the spec sheet, the 440 has a BLDC motor, not a 3-Phase AC motor. So, yes, it should be approximately constant torque across the entire speed range. I'm really surprised it uses a BLDC - I have yet to see a small mill or lathe with a BLDC that wasn't a disaster (think almost ANY Syil CNC machine, the Novakon NM-135, and the Mikini Mechatronics 1610L - all killed by their BLDC spindles). Hopefully this one will be different....

Regards,
Ray L.

[cmantunes]

Ray, I have my sights on a Baldor BSM90C-3250AF for my Sieg SX4 milling machine (id - Baldor.com). This thing is a PMSM and can be driven either as an AC or DC motor. What I like about it is that it has a rated/base speed of 1200 RPM and a max speed of 7000 at 1KW. I just need to find a seller willing to give me a nice discount. Honestly, I don't understand how Tormach wants to be taken seriously with a crappy spindle motor!

[tmarks11]

...think almost ANY Syil CNC machine, the Novakon NM-135, and the Mikini Mechatronics 1610L - all killed by their BLDC spindles...Hopefully this one will be different..

You missed one or two... such as the earlier Sieg SX3 (aka Grizzly G0619).

To be fair, the usual problem is with the BLDC controller. BLDC motors are cheap to build, but the controllers are a different story. If Tormach picked a reputable industrial brand of BLDC controller, they shouldn't have that problem. Those other machines were cursed with slapped together PC boards with inadequately spec'd transistors mounted on insufficient heat sinks.

Hopefully Tormach didn't go cheap on the BLDC controller.

Honestly, I don't understand how Tormach wants to be taken seriously with a crappy spindle motor!

BLDC does not equal "crappy motor". It can, but it doesn't have to. There are a lot of crappy induction motors mounted on Chinese machines too, with start/run capacitors that leak out the magic smoke early in their life, with inadequate wire gage and varnish that shorts out at the slightest overheating. Doesn't mean all induction motors are crappy.

A little early to be jumping to the conclusion that Tormach has made a rookie mistake. Tormach has a pretty good track record. Look at the 770 and 1100; they chose Emerson VFD instead of off-brand cheap crap.

[daniellyall]

I don't think tormach will ever use crap parts on there machine`s you just need to look at problems people have had with tormach machine. all the one's I have seen here get sorted quite fast or it`s a problem others have had and give out the fixes for each problem that pop`s up.

they have been building this machine for 3 years so I think there will have been a lot of testing done

[cmantunes]

BLDC does not equal "crappy motor".

True, but in this case we have a constant torque motor that delivers ~60W at 1000 RPM! The motor and controller may very well be good quality but they are totally inappropriate for this particular application.

[rowbare]

True, but in this case we have a constant torque motor that delivers ~60W at 1000 RPM! The motor and controller may very well be good quality but they are totally inappropriate for this particular application.

That is quite a speed range. Hopefully they have a two speed pulley system like the larger machines. I haven't see the question asked or answered anywhere so far. Perhaps someone here is going to the Maker Faire in NYC and can check it out.

bob

[cmantunes]

Perhaps someone here is going to the Maker Faire in NYC and can check it out.

Actually, I'm going. I'll let you know what I find out.

[tmarks11]

True, but in this case we have a constant torque motor that delivers ~60W at 1000 RPM! The motor and controller may very well be good quality but they are totally inappropriate for this particular application.

Why do you think it is direct drive? Both the 770 and 1100 have two speed ranges based upon pulley position. Trying to get low speed torque is impossible, even with the best motor for the job (and BLDC is going to be better than most).

The 770 has about the same speed range, and its gearing is broken down like this:
Low Belt: 175-3250 RPM
High Belt: 525-10,000 RPM

Also, while the Tormach rep might have said that the spindle motor has "constant torque", he was mistaken. For a well designed BLDC controller, torque peaks between 10-20% of rated speed, then drops off over the upper speed range. The torque/power characteristics of a well designed BLDC, would give you about 20% or rated spindle power at 10% of rated motor speed, and from 30%-100% of rated speed is approximately constant power.

So on the low belt range, 1000 rpm should be 500W. On the high belt range, 1000 rpm would give you about 120W (which could easily stall, so definitely would want to shift to low range... of course that is true of the 770 and 1100 as well).

[Spinnetti]

Not sure exactly what you think is the "market between the two". HAAS machines run the gamut from smaller than the Tormach to significantly bigger.

Are you talking about a Haas Mini Mill (which has less travel than a Tormach 1100 for 3x the price, although with significantly more mass, rigidity and power), or a VF-1 (which has twice the work volume for 4x the price)? Or are you talking about price tag (midway between $19k for the Tormach and $29k for a used mini-mill)?

Are you looking for something with larger travels, more mass,and more power than Tormach, but cheaper than a Haas? I think that once Tormach starts adding any of these things, the price for the (New) Tormach will be more than the price of the used Haas. There is not much room for Tormach's price to grow.

An 1100 with stand, enclosure, ATC/PDB is almost $19k.

What price-point for a larger machine due you think would still make it attractive over a used Haas? $23-25k for the mill, stand, enclosure, ATC/PDB? And what features do you think that extra money should buy (linear rails, increased mass including integrated cast-iron stand, etc)?

These are serious questions.

I am serious

I'm talking $, not features. Minkini seems to have flamed out, but their machine was configured a lot better for enclosure, stand, way covers, controller and what not - dunno about base hardware, but I'm not talking about base hardware anyway. I'd pay more for better stuff though I think the ATC is a rip and didn't get that on my 1100. PDB was worth it, but for what I make, I design to not have tons of tool changes anyway (this is a toy for me not my livelyhood). I'm half tempted to just get a brand new 4 axis Mini-mill II instead of the new sports car I was getting close to buying.. Only go around once right? Older decent mini mills seem to be in the $20s - probably worth it. I'll probably just get another 1100 and grumble about the stand/enclosure/way covers again and get a nice car. Now what car... Hmm.. GT350? M2? S5? Tesla 3? Used R8? Choices, choices

[tmarks11]

That is why I am driving a 16 yo car... so i can spend more on machinery.

feature wise. I don't see Tormach making big brother that "splits the difference". They are aiming at the amateurs and hobbyists, small start-ups who aren't trying to run 1000 items in a production run. Putting a machine in a beginners hands with rapids of 700 ipm is asking them to destroy something.

[cmantunes]

Some pics of Tormach at World Maker Faire. I'll post my observations tomorrow as I am too tired right now.

Attachment 293520
Attachment 293518
Attachment 293522
Attachment 293524
Attachment 293526

[mountaindew]

That is why I am driving a 16 yo car... so i can spend more on machinery.

feature wise. I don't see Tormach making big brother that "splits the difference". They are aiming at the amateurs and hobbyists, small start-ups who aren't trying to run 1000 items in a production run. Putting a machine in a beginners hands with rapids of 700 ipm is asking them to destroy something.

Its also easy to overlook little industries like medical, dental and jewelry. Many of these products are made of materials that don't require large tools, horsepower or ninja fast rapids and are well suited to smaller work envelopes and decent precision.

ps:
From the pictures posted I do see offset motor with pulley drive. And wondered how they could offer pdb inline with direct drive motor as mentioned before without stacking everything up.