[CNC-Dude]

The question was asked last night in the webinar if Tormach will sell the card and software to white-box computer owners and Tormach responded by saying: Yes, they will sell you the kit, but they cannot possibly support each and every hardware configuration, so Tormach support will only be available for the TMC.

To me, this means if you want to pony up the $95, they should ship you a beta kit and let you fend for yourself.

Disclaimer: If you are a software guy with spare time and motivation, by all means get involved with LinuxCNC! I wish I wasn't always so burned out after my final commits at the end of the day for my real job =(

Intriguing... I thought I heard only people with one of the latest TMC's could acquire the upgrade. Will check directly with them and straighten this misconception of mine.

[tmarks11]

Intriguing... I thought I heard only people with one of the latest TMC's could acquire the upgrade. Will check directly with them and straighten this misconception of mine.

Daniel Rogge looked kind of unsure when he answered this question, and almost seemed to contradict himself, so maybe what he said was not the official line.

What I got out of it:
1. They will only sell the PP software to verified Tormach machine owners.
2. They will sell software to Tormach machine owners with homebrew computers, but will provide absolutely no after-sales support. Since they are charging $10, that isn't really "selling" in my book, more like giving away...
3. You can buy a 5i25/6i25 direct from Mesa, and the PP will download the right pin settings into it on startup.

I am not sure why you want a "Open Source" group for a commercial splinter of an Open Source project. Just join the LinuxCNC group.

The PP software as I understand it by the requirements of the LGPL license is not "Open Source". LGPL allows incorporation of open-source libraries into commerical proprietary code, and companies are not required to release source code for the proprietary components. Tormach is required to release the source code for any portions of the code that are modified/adapted from the open source code, and has met that obligation by releasing the trajectory planner improvements source code. Don't expect to see source code for the proprietary portions like the conversational screens, ATC, probing screens, etc.

The "Open Source" elements of PP will be in LinuxCNC releases; nowhere else.

[Methylethylketo]

Daniel Rogge looked kind of unsure when he answered this question, and almost seemed to contradict himself, so maybe what he said was not the official line.
The PP software as I understand it by the requirements of the LGPL license is not "Open Source". LGPL allows incorporation of open-source libraries into commerical proprietary code, and companies are not required to release source code for the proprietary components. Tormach is required to release the source code for any portions of the code that are modified/adapted from the open source code, and has met that obligation by releasing the trajectory planner improvements source code. Don't expect to see source code for the proprietary portions like the conversational screens, ATC, probing screens, etc..

The nice part of LinuxCNC is that most of the screens and stuff like the ATC are just python scripts and customized menus you can edit with the appropriate gnu software tools. 95% of what most people are going to want to dink with are things that are plain text, or near enough to not require extensive reverse engineering to uncover. Adding a 3 axis homing button, support for the vista pendants, more options in the conversational wizard, stuff like that.

Without clear delineation between the GPL/LGPL code sections and the proprietary config and UI changes Tormach did, it'll be hard to really determine what we can freely distribute as 3rd party addins, what we can distribute as entire distributions of the software, and what we'd be required to offer as an installable set of text file difs to modify tormach owned stuff that we can't redistribute in whole form.

[tmarks11]

Without clear delineation between the GPL/LGPL code sections and the proprietary config and UI changes Tormach did, it'll be hard to really determine what we can freely distribute as 3rd party addins, what we can distribute as entire distributions of the software, and what we'd be required to offer as an installable set of text file difs to modify tormach owned stuff that we can't redistribute in whole form.

You can solve that whole problem by starting with LinuxCNC 2.70, and writing your own "easily editable" python scripts for ATC, etc, and then spread it around the open source community. No gray areas there.

This means their derivative works also need to be open source. They have attorneys and they know the rules. If anything, Tormach could get into heated water if they don't release their code.

The LGPL allows linking open source libraries and compiling with proprietary code, and not releasing the proprietary code. Tormach has been very above board, including hosting a "summit" of some of the leaders of the LinuxCNC community to discuss development and licensing requirements. I think we have already seen the policy: PP will be offered to Tormach customers as proprietary software, any modifications/improvements to the LinuxCNC core components will be released to the linuxCNC community and available to everyone as a free download as part of normal LinuxCNC releases.

You want an ATC screen, conversational screens, probing, etc, feel free to start with released LinuxCNC code and build from there.

Someone should ban...

Just use the REPORT button at the bottom of the post, than hit the IGNORE user feature, and don't worry about it. Anything more just gets useful threads (like this one) locked.

[Methylethylketo]

You can solve that whole problem by starting with LinuxCNC 2.70, and writing your own "easily editable" python scripts for ATC, etc, and then spread it around the open source community. No gray areas there.

No grey areas, but also a stupidly wasteful duplication of effort. If someone modifies the conversational screen and G-code generation script to include a z-height hold down for chaining different conversational sections together, how should he share it with others who are interested in it? Depending on how that code is licensed will determine if it ends up being an issue or not.


So if someone wants to add a Z retract setting to the pocketing conversational screen because of the way he clamps his parts, he should start with LinuxCNC and recreate all the PP stuff?

[rowbare]

No grey areas, but also a stupidly wasteful duplication of effort. If someone modifies the conversational screen and G-code generation script to include a z-height hold down for chaining different conversational sections together, how should he share it with others who are interested in it? Depending on how that code is licensed will determine if it ends up being an issue or not.


So if someone wants to add a Z retract setting to the pocketing conversational screen because of the way he clamps his parts, he should start with LinuxCNC and recreate all the PP stuff?

I don't think that will be necessary. I asked Daniel whether they would publish an API to allow people to add custom conversational screens that they could then contribute to the community and he said that is in the plans though it will probably be about 6 months out. I am sure some clever folks will have it mostly figured out before then.

How to contribute and distribute is an open question. Surely there will always be an informal exchange where Joe sends Bill a copy of his polygonal pocketing wizard. Beyond that, it would be nice to see some kind of central repository similar to an app store where one could upload wizards and users could rate them on a number of weighted criteria (robustness, suitability to intended task, ease of use, esthetics etc...). This could be entirely community based or could be run or sponsored by Tormach.

bob

[joe aiello]

Why not use google groups as a repository, questions & answers, etc. ?

..... joe

[treyjugson]

You can solve that whole problem by starting with LinuxCNC 2.70, and writing your own "easily editable" python scripts for ATC, etc, and then spread it around the open source community. No gray areas there.


The LGPL allows linking open source libraries and compiling with proprietary code, and not releasing the proprietary code. Tormach has been very above board, including hosting a "summit" of some of the leaders of the LinuxCNC community to discuss development and licensing requirements. I think we have already seen the policy: PP will be offered to Tormach customers as proprietary software, any modifications/improvements to the LinuxCNC core components will be released to the linuxCNC community and available to everyone as a free download as part of normal LinuxCNC releases.

You want an ATC screen, conversational screens, probing, etc, feel free to start with released LinuxCNC code and build from there.


Just use the REPORT button at the bottom of the post, than hit the IGNORE user feature, and don't worry about it. Anything more just gets useful threads (like this one) locked.

+1, +1, +1, +1

If Path Pilot is just LinuxCNC with a different interface, then why don't you just start with LinuxCNC and build your own version?? The Path Pilot trajectory planner is already in LinuxCNC.

+1