[jdholbrook]

Looking through ebay I see a lot of used HAAS mills and I'm looking to buy one.
Looking at the VF-1, mini mill and super mini mill.

I see some in the $25K range with 4000+ hours.
I see some in the $30K range with 1000 - 2000 hours.
Found one for $35k with 430 hours.

What would you do?

[djr76]

depends, a 4000 hr machine at my shop is much different then a 4000 hr machine from down the street who rode it hard and put it away wet.

[pagoda]

I went new 40k for my garage.
I see how we run ours at the shop... Personally i would have to know the owner / history to go used.

If it was not a garage machine I might have different criteria.

[underthetire]

You can always step up a bit and find something like this
CNC mill - Mori Seiki

[WOTDesigns]

It really depends what you want it for. Just to play around and learn is one thing... Running production is a totally different beast. I have several friends that owned shops before I purchased equipment and was regularly over helping them try to keep them running or listening to them ***** while they were waiting on tech or parts. The horror stories of techs miss-diagnosing issue 2 or 3 times and wasting $12K in the process.

I started in my garage by building a mill that served my needs. Those needs grew so I bought a Tormach. Needs continued to grow so I searched and searched for a used HAAS that didn't scare me and finally just bought new. They hold their resale value to well to take a risk of a beat up machine that comes with problems unless it's a killer price and great machine. Blow a board and then replace spindle on a 8 year old machine and you could have purchased new when added to what many used machines go for.

Do u have 3 phase? How big are your parts? Production or prototyping then send out for production?

I went with a new TM2P because I needed bigger travels and the largest tool I use in production is 1/4" end mill. A 30 hp spindle and smaller travels would be completely pointless to me. I ordered with damn near everything that can be added on for $55K including deliver, set up, warranty and now have 40x16x16 space that I completely fill with parts and get 4 and 5 hour walk away time.

20 station changer (nice luxury)
Auger (freaking must have)
Rigid tapping (absolute must have)
4th axis ready (still haven't needed a 4th yet...)
Pendant (waste of money)
High pressure coolant (must have for wash down and larger chips)

Only thing I missed was high speed machining option... WTF? It should be called "Machining non-straight line option" and is practically a necessity.

I priced out used machines with less travels, missing options I wanted and after adding in rigging I was only saving 20-30% which would likely be consumed by the first two repairs. Now I have a machine that I know every part it's ever made, and every crash it's ever had. Repairs will still come eventually but I pushed them back and would rather pay a few more $ a month than have a $4K repair cost.

That being said if I had found a GREAT deal I would have taken it and may have been perfectly happy with no issues. I just couldn't find that "great deal"


Brian
WOT Designs

[jdholbrook]

Darn Brian!
You hit it on the head! Exactly what I needed, the voice of experience and yours seems to parallel my needs.
I've already done the hobby mill thing and need to step it up.
Why not bypass the Tormach step and save the time and money?

This is worth a lot to me.

Now I have a machine that I know every part it's ever made, and every crash it's ever had.

I don't have 3 phase. I was thinking converter but looking at a 30hp spindle on converter, not likely. I would have to beef up my service. $$$ I'm limited to 100amp service also.

Just going through the Tool Room models and I see the TM2P is a good compromise between size and $$

Looking at the specs.. that thing is HUGE compared to the Tormach.
May have to modify the garage to get the 105 height. Floor to ceiling is 102!
Not to mention the 73" depth. It will take up half the garage.
Do you have a photo of yours? What size garage? Is there any space left for a lathe?

I've contacted HAAS and will talk to sales soon I'm sure.
Will they work with me on price?

I like your options and good advice on the pendant.
What about the Probe System? I can see the value of having a probe but $5500.00 ?? Is there another solution?
Can't I just use a tool setter probe and a Haimer to accomplish the same?

James

[WOTDesigns]

I thought the Tormach was the biggest machine I would ever need... LOL. Took a year to justify the HAAS purchase. I actually got a shop with three phase for the HAAS which I do regret. If you tell them it's going in a garage they lower the head by removing a few components for you and the install tech put it back together. That info I learned 30 minutes ago from the HFO tech who is here right now. If I had known it only needed 3phase if you add the high pressure coolant I wouldn't have moved. I would have just stayed there and made room. It isn't THAT much bigger than the Tormach all things considered, but it does need to be out from the wall about 36"... On the other hand you CAN move it with just a pallet jack... I know from experience.

They didn't work with me any on price, but threw in some training and coolant and a few other goodies.

I have the probe system and absolutely love it! Definitely worth the money to ME because I have a lot of parts that I flip and program the second op to probe after facing the carrier to get better blending from side to side. I've done parts with multiple bores and no good reference point so I programmed the tool to probe each bore G54 & G55 and run off those. Very handy but don't do anything you can't do manually. It's a luxury. A damn nice luxury. I researched and found out that if you crash and destroy the probe you just mail it to Renishaw and pay $1500 including shipping for a BRAND NEW ONE. That convinced me to buy it. I've already crashed it by accidentally hitting page down before cycle start... Skipped the tool call and just plunged. Caused damage but the renishaw software is amazing and completely calibrated out the error.

Picture? Kind of a lot of crap in the way so I took a few:

I had to move a bunch of stuff for the tech but here is the Tormach with the HAAS right in front of each other.

Attachment 269270Attachment 269272

Brian
WOT Designs

[jdholbrook]

Thanks for the photos. That really puts it in perspective.
I just laid it out on the garage floor. Takes up a good 1/3 of the garage!

I'll be flipping parts too so that settles it, gotta have the probe.

Seems you've already gone through the decisions I've been mulling over these past few weeks.
I contemplated renting a space. Something in the 1000sq ft range with 3 phase. Of course that adds rent, utilities, insurance and all that $$$ extra.
The pros of renting a space are that I could have a small retail area up front and 3 phase and free up my garage for use as a garage.

Tell me about the chip auger? I know what it does but is it worth the extra space and cost? Can it be used either way or is the outlet fixed on the left side?

Appreciate your time and information.

James

[WOTDesigns]

I definitely think it's worth it. Without it you have to shovel chips constantly. Messy. PITA. switching direction would be a question for the HFO. The motor was already installed on the right, but maybe the whole bottom tray could be assembled reversed at the factory. Keep in mind these are built one off... It took 2 months after ordering for them to finish my machine.

Retail space is nice and feels more professional... But 3phase isn't required on the TM unless you to HP coolant. 7hp doesn't draw that much so you would be fine running it at your house. I live having my 2000 sq/ft shop but miss working from home. Honestly 1000 would be enough for everything I have here... If I used pallet racking like my neighbor and built a huge second story mezzanine.

Just started installing NY own pallet racks. Frees up a ton of space. Nice being able to work on 4x8 sheets of wood without moving anything.

Brian
WOT Designs

[jdholbrook]

Seems prices have gone up since you ordered.
Probably could do without the Ethernet Interface but sounds handy for transferring files.

TM-2P  Toolroom Mill 40" x 16" x 16", with ATC     37,995.00 USD
Tooling Taper (BT/CT) CT-Style Tool Changer Grippers 	0.00 USD
Tool Changer 20-Station Automatic Tool Changer      2,695.00 USD
Additional Axis         4th-Axis Drive and Wiring   1,995.00 USD
Probe System Wireless Intuitive Probing System      5,495.00 USD
Control Options Ethernet Interface                  1,595.00 USD
Control Options High-Speed Machining                2,595.00 USD
Control Options Rigid Tapping                       1,395.00 USD
Warranty 1-Year Extended Warranty                   6,195.00 USD
Options Chip Auger                                  2,595.00 USD
Options High-Flow Coolant Pump Kit, 3/4 hp (0.6 kW) 1,395.00 USD
-----------------------------------------------------------------
List Price                                         63,950.00 USD

My lathe is 3 phase and I'm running a converter already. Three phase would free up that power sucking device.

[WOTDesigns]

Naw, I didn't pay for the extra warranty. Not much can happen in the second year, but not the first or third that would cost MORE than $6K. That a ridiculous price. You can replace the spindle for less than that.

Brian
WOT Designs

[WOTDesigns]

Qty Unit Price Ext. Price Description
Qty Unit Price Ext. Price Part Number Description
1 $37,995.00 $37,995.00 TM-2P Toolroom Mill with Tool Changer; 40" x 16" x 16" (1016 x 406 x 406
mm), 40 taper, 7.5 hp (5.6 kW) vector drive, 6000 rpm, full enclosure, 10-station automatic tool changer, Intuitive Programming System, 1 MB program memory, memory lock keyswitch, 15" color LCD monitor and USB port and 5-gallon (19 liter) flood coolant system.
1 $2,695.00 $2,695.00 TC-20 20-Station Automatic Tool Changer
1 $2,595.00 $2,595.00 AUGER Chip Auger
1 $5,495.00 $5,495.00 WIPS-R Wireless Intuitive Probing System; Renishaw
1 $1,995.00 $1,995.00 4AXD 4th-Axis Drive and Wiring
1 $1,395.00 $1,395.00 CPK-HP-3PH High-Flow Coolant Pump Kit, 3/4 hp (0.6 kW), 3-phase power
required
1 $1,395.00 $1,395.00 RTAP-3 Rigid Tapping
1 $1,295.00 $1,295.00 RJH-C Remote Jog Handle with Color LCD
1 $400.00 $400.00 OST On-Site Training
1 $295.00 $295.00 MFININ M-Code/MFIN Cable Assembly
1 -$2,500.00 -$2,500.00 /D Options Discount
1 -$2,650.00 -$2,650.00 FEB SPR February Promotion (expires 2-28-14)
2/24/2014 BBMO1580

Brian
WOT Designs

[jdholbrook]

That helps considerably with the price!

These look good:

1 -$2,500.00 -$2,500.00 /D Options Discount
1 -$2,650.00 -$2,650.00 FEB SPR February Promotion (expires 2-28-14)

Wonder if I can talk them into something like that?

DId you use the cable?
1 $295.00 $295.00 MFININ M-Code/MFIN Cable Assembly

[WOTDesigns]

Totally forgot. They gave me a percentage off accessories! Hence the $2500 discount. You don't need Pfin

Brian
WOT Designs

[WOTDesigns]

Sent that before I saw your reply funny enough. The sales man told me I would need the Pfin to set up mist coolant which was completely inaccurate. The HAAS has 4 open relays. I wired one to another relay (keep voltage away from the board) which I wired to a solenoid so now a M51 command turns on air to air spindle or mist coolant or just air to clear chips while machining with door open. A lot of what I do requires standing there loading parts into one vise while it machines parts on another vise. 2000 ea of 4 different parts is my standard run and many of the operations are 20 seconds per part. Closing the doors would add a month of machine time to each run. I use air cooling and to push the chips back instead of into my chest, face or arms. Um... Do not try this at home... Trained professional... Closed course and things.

Brian
WOT Designs

[hoffmannm]

I am also looking into some used Haas machines.

Example: Haas VF3. 20x40 travel Fully tooled

What are some things I should look for?
Are there typical things to look on mills for after blank number of hours...? Spindle wear... Tool changer...

[WOTDesigns]

Those ads scare the crap out of me. Less than 500 hours of feed? WTF?! That must be since the spindle was replaced. That's only 3 months at 40 hours a week. I have that on my 9 month old HAAS I only run part time.

What does "tight for its age mean?" 0.0005 backlash? Or 0.002" backlash?

Brian
WOT Designs

[WOTDesigns]

On the other hand the vises and tooling alone are worth 2-3K

Brian
WOT Designs

[hoffmannm]

Those ads scare the crap out of me. Less than 500 hours of feed? WTF?! That must be since the spindle was replaced. That's only 3 months at 40 hours a week. I have that on my 9 month old HAAS I only run part time.

What does "tight for its age mean?" 0.0005 backlash? Or 0.002" backlash?

Brian
WOT Designs

haha ya I mean that one looks scary... i'm not a neat freak but shoot i'd at least blast it with some degreaser first before pictures.

Thats a good point about the tooling and vises, didn't really think about all that.

[jdholbrook]

Talked to the HAAS salesman yesterday.
Today I'll get back with him to specify what options I want.

Seems next week is the Houstex show here in Houston. That should be interesting.
Anyone from the forum going to attend?

On a side note. While surfing through Craigslist I found this
CNC SHOP
Machine shop ready to go with proven track record. $225K
My first question is.. Why sell it?