[curiosity22]

G'day people,

I'm totally new with CNC but not new to 3d..

I've probably started learning about bas reliefs arse about perhaps but if you can bear with me I'm hoping to learn some more.

Over the last couple of months I've become quite good (at least I have) at creating clean bas reliefs. I've learn't how to take a 2d pic and convert it to a Bas Relief. This took a lot of time to work out, perseverance and a lot of luck and I think I'm there.

I have an interest in setting up a machine for carving bas reliefs, so I decided to learn how to create the bas reliefs and learn how to use the software to do so, thankfully there is a lot of software available for trial which enabled me to whittle down what to use. Even though there is software that claims it can do 2d to 3d I've found that not to be the case, most produce rubbish and don't implement code proper math for creating a Depth Image, I got lucky and found some software which does an excellent job the best Ive ever seen even though it was never intended to be used for creating Bas Reliefs for CNC.

Allegorithmic - Smart Textures - Bitmap2Material - Normal Map Generator not expensive to buy, only thing you need to get used to is the water mark during the trial. The other excellent piece of software is BmpBender if you google for it you should find it without problem. The software has gone to heaven so to speak, its only a tiny program some 5 meg in size but it produces an excellent STL file and its free. The other software that can be used to produce the STL and relief is Autodesk Mudbox, a trial is available though it is expensive. BMPbender will give you the STL you need with no learning curve and within seconds. Pity its not longer being developed.

I've watched hours of youtube videos on other products like ArtCam but for the price some sell in the many thousands of dollars, I have found for a fraction of the cost and with much less effort and definitely a much less learning curve you can do better. Using the software I've mentioned with a bit of determination you can produce an excellent quality depth map for producing Bas Reliefs in several hours for some to no more than a week of fiddling about.

The most important things being but never mentioned by a lot of software manufacturers that claim 2d to 3d is having a good clean large format picture of the subject you are trying to obtain a Z depth for. Which will allow you to edit elements of the pic to make sure you get proper Z depth etc etc etc. I'm sure a lot of you have come across that same issues that have interest in bas reliefs. GIMP - The GNU Image Manipulation Program this is free open source software similar to photoshop for touching up any work that needs to have your depth image adjusted.

I'm now at the point almost any good pic with patience I can produce an excellent bas relief mesh and topic as a .STL file.

Where I'm stuck now is validating the .STL, I don't know nor do I have any clue as to how a STL file should be.

eg:

1. is a 100 meg STL to large or too small
2. does the size or mesh density affect the speed of carving
3. what is the ideal balance of detail, or do you loose detail depending on bit size.. seems obvious but Im not sure.
4. How does mesh complexity affect time of build, I don't want to produce an STL file that will take a week to carve.
5. can a STL file be scaled without affecting the final product. ie take an STL that is 6x6 cm make it 12 x 12 cm without affecting quality or do we need to remesh it.

I've done a lot of searching and found that Bas Reliefs seem to be a too hard basket, I've found that not to be the case or I'm just searching in the wrong place, hence coming to this forum.

Is there specific software I should be looking at that can aid in STL validation if I am using the correct term I don't know.

My best proof for validating whether or not the STL files I produce are any good is to have someone build the project. Not knowing anyone that has a CNC I need to wait till I build my own, so at the moment I'm enjoying the process of learning to make what I can.

Like I said new to CNC but not new to building things in 3d.

I am retired and need a hobby, and I would dearly like to now build many of the things I have created over the years into tangible objects. I nearly purchased a 3d printer but choose not too, I'm not a great fan of plastics I'd much prefer carving in wood, or soft metals.

Regards and thanks in advance for advice given.

[awerby]

Congratulations on getting this far with your bas-reliefs! The rest of it isn't really that difficult. I'll address your questions below:


1. is a 100 meg STL to large or too small

[That's about right for a highly-detailed mesh.]

2. does the size or mesh density affect the speed of carving

[Yes; you'll typically need more time to carve a more detailed mesh, all things being equal.]

3. what is the ideal balance of detail, or do you loose detail depending on bit size.. seems obvious but Im not sure.

[You need to use a ball-end tool that's small enough to get into the smallest negative spaces you've defined in your model, or they won't appear in your carving.]

4. How does mesh complexity affect time of build, I don't want to produce an STL file that will take a week to carve.

[A lot depends on your router or mill, also the size of the piece and the size of the tool come into play. So say you have a relief that's 100mm x 100mm, and you're carving it with a 1mm tool with a 5% stepover, using a rastering toolpath. In that case, the tool will have to traverse the part 20 times for each mm of width, or 2000 times for the whole piece. If you have a machine that cuts at 500 mm/minute, it's going to take longer than one that goes 5000 mm/min. ]

5. can a STL file be scaled without affecting the final product. ie take an STL that is 6x6 cm make it 12 x 12 cm without affecting quality or do we need to remesh it.

[You can scale an STL file somewhat without affecting the quality of your carving, but that depends on how finely it was meshed in the first place. If you notice faceting in contours that were supposed to be smooth, then you need to remesh to a finer level.

Try to find or build a CNC machine that's fairly rigid, big enough for what you want to do, and fast enough to do it fairly quickly. Wood in particular likes to be cut fast, or it starts showing dwell marks. A 3-phase spindle with a VFD is a lot better than a wood router designed for hand work. Once you've got a machine, download a CAM program like DeskProto to easily convert your STL files into G-code that will work on your router or mill. Hobbyists like you get a special price on this software. "Validating" a STL file isn't as important with CNC carving as with 3d printing, since a tiny hole won't cause the whole job to fail - the tool will just skip over it if it's smaller than the tool itself.]

Andrew Werby
www.computersculpture.com

[curiosity22]

Hi Andrew,

Thank you very much for your quick reply and for the advice. I appreciate your taking time to help me along.

So far so good looks like I'm on the right track.

If I might ask another few questions please?

You recommend DeskProto, I have seen on various searches though google a lot of people also recommend Mach3 - not knowing one from the other I assume it is the same type or similar program. I will also assume that either or is what is used to control your CNC machine as well.

I thank you for letting me know about STL being converted to Gcode (something I didn't know about) .. Would it then matter if my final product was an .STL or other type of compatible 3d mesh which could then be converted to Gcode. Is STL a standard format or is GCODE the final product that is required by CNC/3d printers?

I have been looking at CNC machines, originally I had thought about building one. My lovely wife is discouraging me from doing that, she is suggesting I just buy one and go from there. So having said that I do like the Shopbot buddy I believe its called it seems to fit a number of criteria small form factor but expandable. If you have any opinions regarding that unit I would appreciate hearing them or a recommendation.

My son shakes his head every time I talk to him about CNC he is encouraging me to go fishing instead.

Again thank you very much for taking the time to reply to my thread.

Regards...

Steve

[awerby]

Deskproto and Mach3 work together; they don't do the same thing. DeskProto (or any CAM program) imports your model (in STL format or several others) and - taking into account your choice of tools, feedrates, stepovers, etc. - generates a file called a "G-code" program that has the instructions that tell your mill how to move in order to carve your part out of a piece of material. Mach3 is the program that opens that file and interprets it, acting as a CNC controller attached to your machine. It gets your computer to generate the pulses that actually make the router move.

G-code is only used by CNC machines. 3D printers generally have "slicing" software of their own that takes in a STL file and prepares its own type of program for building the part.

The Shopbot Buddy is a good choice of router. They aren't very expensive, they're well built, and they have a good following in the DIY community, so there's more than just the company to help you if you get stuck. Get the spindle option with the VFD, though, instead of the cheaper router option. You can go fishing too; it's not an either-or decision...

Andrew Werby
www.computersculpture.com

[curiosity22]

Hi Andrew,

Thank you again for your quick reply, its good to hear the shopbot is a decent option and I'll take as good advice re spindle. I think I have enough information now to make an informed choice on software and hardware needed.

Regards Steve

[Frank60]

Hi,

I'm going this road too, so I was interested in how to use Allegorithmic to create .STL height map files from bitmaps. I have now a trial version of Substance Player with Bitmap2Material, but I only seem to be able to export to .BMP and other graphic file formats.

Thanks

Frank

[curiosity22]

Hey g'day Frank,

Bitmap2Material is a fantastic application for producing height maps, the format you want to export to is .tif x 16 bit... what you need is something like bmp bender

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/produc..._software.html

Thats a link to it.

The way it works is you product a hight map then you need something like bmp bender to displace the map you produce and it will save as a .stl file.. or any other 3d program that you might be using or familiar with (blender 3d is free) will displace the tif/bmp you produce from a mesh then save to .stl ......

Regards,

Steve

Hi,

I'm going this road too, so I was interested in how to use Allegorithmic to create .STL height map files from bitmaps. I have now a trial version of Substance Player with Bitmap2Material, but I only seem to be able to export to .BMP and other graphic file formats.

Thanks

Frank

[Frank60]

Thanks, Steve,

the link to twmessenger is dead, I'll google bmpbender to see if it's available somewhere.

Thanks again.

Frank

[3dcarver]

Hi Steve,

I don't know if you have had any success as yet, but I am willing to have a look at your stl file and possibly even machine it or at least give you some feed back.
I am based in Melbourne and have a bit of experience in processing stl files into real objects.

Cheers John

[curiosity22]

John g'day,

Sry haven't replied earlier have been busy being old :P..

Will send you a PM with link to file. I'm having problems reading the stl correctly. Don't know what the issue is. I greatly appreciate your assist.

Hope you find an employee I just saw your add.. If I were slightly younger I'd join you.. I have at least a sense of humor even if others don't agree.. I continue to breath just to annoy them..

Cheers,

Steve

Hi Steve,

I don't know if you have had any success as yet, but I am willing to have a look at your stl file and possibly even machine it or at least give you some feed back.
I am based in Melbourne and have a bit of experience in processing stl files into real objects.

Cheers John

[3dcarver]

Hi Steve,

I think your main problem with reading this file is probably just the size. I tried it in 3 different applications. The first, Rhino3D, just sat there for about 5 minutes before I pulled the plug. The second, a scan processing tool, imported in but some of the areas had the normals reversed making them appear black rather than rendered. The third, ArtCam, read it in without any problems.
If you were able to produce this file from a 2D image I would be very interested in learning how you did it.
If you can control the resolution and create a lower density mesh then I think you may have more success but it may compromise the detail.

Cheers John.

I have attached a few screen shots showing the results:
Image after imprting into Scanner Processing software showing dark areas.
Attachment 202922
Into Artcam...
Attachment 202924
Close up of detail in artcam
Attachment 202926

John g'day,

Sry haven't replied earlier have been busy being old :P..

Will send you a PM with link to file. I'm having problems reading the stl correctly. Don't know what the issue is. I greatly appreciate your assist.

Hope you find an employee I just saw your add.. If I were slightly younger I'd join you.. I have at least a sense of humor even if others don't agree.. I continue to breath just to annoy them..

Cheers,

Steve

[curiosity22]

Hey John g'day,

Producing the file isn't too much of an issue, its pretty simple really (sort of). essentially what you need is a clean image.. lets use as an example if you had a portrait someones face. The image needs to be without any highlights.
. if you took a camera and took a snapshot of someone - normally what your looking for is an image with some shadows highlights etc to make the snapshot interesting.
. for producing height maps which can be converted to .stl you need to have a portrait snap shot with no shadows on the face a clean very bland pic.
. I don't know how much you know about the process so Ill explain as best I can.
. if you have say a shadow over a face what happens is you will create a height map when producing an stl the shadowed areas will be deep cuts. look like holes in the face.
. a good image is eg .. https://www.google.com.au/search?q=a...%3B1280%3B1024

not perfect but ok... what happens when you convert (I will list the programs I use to do this at the end) this image to a height map is the black areas are the problem areas... so a height map is in essence a grey scale image... the problem areas when you look at that image will be the eye brows, the iris and the dark areas around the hair.. If you just used that image as is a grey scale when you convert that to stl everything would look ok looking at it straight on but on closer inspection you would see that the eyebrows and eyelashes would be dug inside the stl.
. You need to use a paint program and select the area that is too dark and apply a lighter grey or white to raise it above the lightest colour of the face. Not to light otherwise the eyebrows and eyelashes as well as iris would look like branches coming too far out of the face.
. In photoshop for example you would open your greyscale image make a duplicate of the image and then do a "multiply" on the top layer what that does is soften the edges between the two images for a final composite.
. Then from photoshop you need to save out as (I prefere .tif but you can save as a .bmp as well).
.I'll make a new zip for you to download so you can have a fiddle. ( I also worked out why the stl was so large) for years I've worked in High Resolution images and meshes. The stl I created was from a 300 dpi .tif image which is way to high it needs to be 72 dpi ... (its good to revisit what you've done frome time to time I guess)
. The program I use to create the height map is "Bitmap2Material" by Allegorithmic - Smart Textures - Bitmap2Material - Normal Map Generator ... you can download a free timed trial and its not that expensive to buy it is the best program for producing relief/height maps.. Even though it was intended for making maps etc for a gaming engine and for programs like rhino/3dsmax etc.
. I then import the .tif to make a relief stl in "Bmp Bender" its a free app no longer suported - I'm sure you can convert the .tif in artcam for your final relief as well.

Download bitmap2material its not hard to work out you just need to set it when you save for 1 frame otherwise it will want to make hundreds of frames by default lol..
If you need more help I'm happy to oblige.

As you would already know you just have to learn to do things in reverse when making your height maps...

Will send you PM for the files so you can have a look at what I'm talking about. If you don't have photoshop then use another paint program I am including a .tif just incase. And a sample of what I'm talking about re Jollie's face.. Its not a great representation but you'll see what can be done with an image in about 5 minutes... just to illustrate a point.

If your interested in doing any 2.5 d (relief work from models you produce in rhino) I can highly recommend the following CREATION OF BAS-RELIEF FROM 3D MODEL OR SCENES .. I bought no1 and no3 the 3dsmax plugin. Its dirt cheap for what it does.. and you produce great bas reliefs. No 2 supply you with the plugin for blender ... unfortunately no support for rhino.. Im sure you could export from rhino to blender for relief creation.

Dam I hope what i've written doesnt sound like Im waffling on..

All I need to do now is put my machine together so I can actually produce at least something from all these stls Im creating..

Regards,

Steve

Cheers,

Steve

[denz]

I have down loaded Bitmap2Material and played around with it for a couple of hours.
I got some good and bad results but its just a matter of time until i get the hang of it, I think i will purchase the program to have documentation (how to use effectively)
Thanks to Steve for the inspiration and the HOWTO.:idea:
I already have BMPbender and need to focus on photoshop as well (In photoshop for example you would open your greyscale image make a duplicate of the image and then do a "multiply" on the top layer what that does is soften the edges between the two images for a final composite) more long nights ahead.
Cheers
Denis

[curiosity22]

Hey G'day,

Happy to help in whatever way I can, Bitmap2Material is an awesome piece of software, once you get the hang of it. I've tried over the months various other programs and nothing comes close to giving a height map in the same way. Of course photoshop or similar will be needed for fine tuning.

Hopefully in the next few weeks I will actually be able to produce a hard copy in wood and see what all the fuss is about once I assemble my Mogul ..

Cheers and good luck.
I apologise for not being better at the tutorial.. I put it down to being miserable old and grumpy, and still breathing - living to disappoint those that require me to do otherwise lol

Regards,

Steve