[widget_maker]

Hi all,

I'm a hobbyist with a manual knee mill and a good old US made 13" swing lathe.
There's a chance that my company may sell off it's Tormach pcnc1100, and I was thinking that it would be a nice introduction intro cnc machining for me.

If had been the original person purchasing this at our company, I would have set it up differently (tool changer for a start!), but as they say "it is what it is"

Basically it's a:
series II pcnc1100
tool stand, coolant tank & pump
2 machine arms
computer w monitor
"performance machine controller for pcnc" (whatever that is!)
duality lathe
5" vise
TTS cnc op set - standard
8" motorized rotary table w tailstock
3jaw chuck
4 jaw chuck
sprut cam


total purchase price excluding shipping was about $16,500.

It's seen very little - I bet under 20 hours - of use.

What would be a fair......no a "good" price to get this machine for?

thanks!

[philbur]

I'll put my 2 cents in:

For a little used machine 60% of new price would be a good deal and I would never go over 75% for any used machine tool.

So that puts it at $10,000 to $12,000

Phil

[GLCarlson]

A useful principle to remember is that the original cost is now 'sunk'. That is, it's irrelevant, because the money is gone. The managers at your company will think this way (at least, they will if they've been to business school). Your objective is to make a rational offer that reflects its value to you, today, and be able to justify that to a seller.

That said, there are a several ways to value this machine.

Some fraction of original purchase price is one. And that makes sense, if it's a fairly recent purchase, as this is. 10-12K seems reasonable if you take that route. I think that method fails for older machinery though. For example, I've got a Rhodes shaper that probably cost a hundred bucks, new...and I paid many times that, 50 years after it was built (I just saw one that was essentially junk, asking 800 bucks- broken crank and bull gear included).

Another way to look at it is to regard it as a new machine (20 hours, unless it's been beat up, is 'new'), worth new price, minus whatever it would take to bring it to current standard (in this case, about 700 bucks for a 3 axis upgrade), and then a fraction of that. Valued that way, probably more like 13-16K.

One can also look at it from the marginal utility point of view. What would you have bought today? Simply offer what you'd have spent for the machine you'd have bought, but for the whole works-even if you wouldn't have bought those items. If you wouldn't buy it, why pay for somebody else's bad choices? You'll graciously haul 'em away, but pay for 'em? Don't be silly.

One thing you may not be able to get at, but if you can, it could help a lot. Has the company depreciated the machine? If so, the most you should offer is what it's worth on their books- or less. That would be my preferred approach, because it will appeal to the bean counters. They may have taken accelerated depreciation and be carrying it at 5K or so. Or zero. It'd be better if it's not zero; offering 'book' is pretty rational if it's not zero. If they wrote it off in year one, though, then you're back to finding some other way to value it, because clearly it's not zero.

You could also ask your company what they want for it. Worst case, that establishes the upper limit of what you'll pay, at no risk to you. That's an indirect way to get at the book value, if you can't actually get it yourself.

Finally, what's the price similar machines have gone for in private sales? There have been several reported in this forum- PM the purchasers and get a sense.

Take a look at valuing it by several of these approaches- at least you'll have a basis for making an offer that will sound rational to the guy who has to accept it.

[cheetahcnc]

Is this the one listed on ebay here?

Tormach CNC PCNC 1100 Vertical Mill - Tilting 4th axis - Complete Deluxe Package | eBay

Jim

[SCzEngrgGroup]

You should offer half the purchase price, and they'll probably take it. They'll be lucky to get much more by selling it on the open market (and very likely less, given that there is a glut of used machine tools on the market the last few years), and will have to go through all the hassles of selling it, and dealing with lookey-loo's and flakes. Unless they've only had it a few months, they've already written down a good portion of its value, so whatever they get is almost free money.

As a point of reference, I've bought equipment from companies that were liquidating. I've bought virtually new name-brand, high-end desktop PCs (engineers workstation), with 20" LCD monitors for as little as $175.

Regards,
Ray L.

[jid2]

I've seen simliar setups sell in the Seattle area for $10-12K, as I've been trying to get work to buy one. I agree with Ray also, that half price is a good place to start.

[widget_maker]

Thank you all for the responses.

Do the options like the duality lathe and the 8" motorized rotary add much value, or are they considered fairly worthless bells and whistles?

BTW, the ebay machine mentioned is not ours.

[SCzEngrgGroup]

For me, the Duality and rotary table would add very little. If you don't have frequent applications for them, they're just extra clutter and wasted space. I've never once used a rotary table since CNCing my mill, and never done anything that would've required a 4th axis.

Regards,
Ray L.

[Wog]

Do the options like the duality lathe and the 8" motorized rotary add much value, or are they considered fairly worthless bells and whistles?

Is the rotary table installed without the 4th axis driver? Tormach sells it that way, but I'm not sure why anyone would want it just to save about $450 retail. With it, you'll have true 4th axis machining capabilities. I use mine often.

The duality lathe is only good for small aluminum, plastic, wood, etc. parts. It can't handle a good cut in steel or stainless. Think: Harbor Freight mini lathe.
I've only used mine once, and that was just to cut the sample part (chess piece).

[widget_maker]

Is the rotary table installed without the 4th axis driver? Tormach sells it that way, but I'm not sure why anyone would want it just to save about $450 retail. With it, you'll have true 4th axis machining capabilities. I use mine often.

The duality lathe is only good for small aluminum, plastic, wood, etc. parts. It can't handle a good cut in steel or stainless. Think: Harbor Freight mini lathe.
I've only used mine once, and that was just to cut the sample part (chess piece).

Our rotab is still sitting in its crate! We did buy the "integration kit" with it - I don't know if that is hardware or software - just see it on the invoice.

The duality lathe as you say reminds me of HF. It's about the same size as the cross slide on my lathe (well, maybe a bit bigger!)

It, also, has never seen the bed of the mill.

[Wog]

Our rotab is still sitting in its crate! We did buy the "integration kit" with it - I don't know if that is hardware or software - just see it on the invoice.

Then yes, you would have full 4 axis.

[philbur]

A 4th axis rotary table is kind of a standard piece of kit for a CNC mill. So the only good reason not to have one on the shelf (apart from price) is if you know that what you are going to be making doesn't require it. If you don't know what you are going to make then it is probably worth having it on the shelf for the if and when.

The duality lathe is a different kettle of fish. If you are going to do lots of CNC lathe work you should think about a dedicated cnc lathe. If you need it very seldom or for the off chance then you can either use the mill spindle or a manual lathe, with form tooling if necessary. I don't think the duality lathe was one of Tormachs' better ideas.

It would be interesting to here from anybody who considered it a good investment?

Phil

[MichaelHenry]

The duality lathe is a different kettle of fish. If you are going to do lots of CNC lathe work you should think about a dedicated cnc lathe. If you need it very seldom or for the off chance then you can either use the mill spindle or a manual lathe, with form tooling if necessary. I don't think the duality lathe was one of Tormachs' better ideas.

It would be interesting to here from anybody who considered it a good investment?

Phil

I bought the Duality lathe and feel that it was a reasonably good investment. As has been stated it has trouble with all but light cuts in carbon steel or stainless steel but I've made several parts in aluminum that would have been hard to do with my manual lathe. A more powerful motor would help there if it didn't turn the spindle into a pretzel.

The biggest benefit, though, was that it was a fairly inexpensive intro to CNC turning and it has certainly whetted my appetite for Tormach's stand-alone CNC lathe.