[wfr8577]

Hi All. I have not posted much, but have enjoyed reading here a lot. I am in the decision process regarding which CNC mill to buy. Initially, I was set on a Tormach PCNC-1100. Then I gravitated towards the Automate Talon MT-36. At the same time, I have been watching Blue Hands on Youtube working with his Novakon Torus Pro. I like it a lot.

I don't want to get very long with this post, but here is a brief summary of pros/cons for each (cost differences ignored).

Tormach:
Pros:
+Pathpilot is much better than Mach3
+Customer support is excellent

-Cons:
-Smallest work envelope of the three
-No rigid tapping / no servo option

AutomateCNC
Pros:
+Siemens 808D Controller is the best solution of the three
+Servos standard, including spindle
+Decent work envelope
+Most robust in terms of size/weight

Cons:
-Customer Service seems lacking. (Deal Killer)

Novakon
Pros:
+Servo option
+Rigid Tapping
+Largest work envelope

Cons:
-Mach3 (this is my big hangup)
-Customer Service used to be an issue, but seems better now.

I know there are lots of other things to think about, but I am mostly worried about what I listed above. I am currently using a self-converted G0704 to do my work and for me, Mach3 is marginal. I would much, much rather have a more robust controller. I have read BrianBoneDoc's thread about converting to Path Pilot, but really don't want to go through that myself.

I guess my vacillations have moved back towards the Tormach for now, but I really would like to buy a Torus Pro if only they had a better controller. Please feel free to offer opinions regarding what you think. I would really value the advice of those of you that own these machines themselves.

Warren

[LeeWay]

I will say that I think you are wise wanting to get away from Mach 3. I put up with it for years and still do on a couple machines. I did not know how much better something else could be. Path Pilot under Linux makes the machine itself run better. A lot better. My Pulsar is like a seriously different machine. Under Mach 3, my Son would come in once a week and say the mill F'ed up again. Some was user error of course. Some due to vibration fouling the Smooth Stepper. Others minor glitches and restart cured those.
My Son doesn't do that anymore with PP.
Also I do not think the Torus Pro can do rigid tapping yet, but it may have an upgrade available that I haven't heard about.
Novakon is also US based now, so that is a benefit if you are from around here.

I think you are wise too to steer clear of the Automate offerings. No support is a deal killer.
I wish you good luck with whatever you choose.

[wfr8577]

Thank you Lee. I looked up Siemens 808D controllers hoping to maybe do a retro fit. They are not cheap.

https://machinetoolproducts.com/3-ax...motors-drives/

[ihavenofish]

Thank you Lee. I looked up Siemens 808D controllers hoping to maybe do a retro fit. They are not cheap.

https://machinetoolproducts.com/3-ax...motors-drives/

hmmm.

call siemens directly. my quote on a complete 4 axis the 828d basic (240 series) was not much different than that listed price. (the 808 series didnt have csa approval yet so there was no price. the 840d, as seen on high end machines, is A LOT more money.)

they have good service, and quite good warranties, 2 or 3 years with onsite service, of course, im in toronto and so are they, so that may vary for other locations. lots of online video tutorials, as well as a free training emulator.

you probably want the 808d advanced if you did go for it btw. digital closed loop control, can handle a 4th axis, and has a few other features. the regular 808d is "open loop step and direction" like mach or linux, relying on the servo drives to close the loop. on the other hand the base 808d can use any step and direction non siemens drives though, which might be useful. im fairly certain they will not "support" 3rd party drives however.

that said. yes, its still quite alot of money when tacked onto a machine thats under 10k. it is also important to note that the drives are 400v 3 phase ONLY. they offer no 220v drives for anything except the high end control models.


i was tempted to go siemens on my novakon nm145 (its being rebuilt with linear rails and ATC right now) but i have a beckhoff ethercat system lying about as well along with linear scales and many other bits an bobs, and am going to try and interface that into linux cnc before i spend any more money. i that turns out to be a fail, i might get an 828d basic.

[Steve303]

hmmm.

i was tempted to go siemens on my novakon nm145 (its being rebuilt with linear rails and ATC right now) but i have a beckhoff ethercat system lying about as well along with linear scales and many other bits an bobs, and am going to try and interface that into linux cnc before i spend any more money. i that turns out to be a fail, i might get an 828d basic.

Would love to learn more about the ATC and linear rails rebuild. Are you using Ray's ATC?

Steve

[ihavenofish]

Would love to learn more about the ATC and linear rails rebuild. Are you using Ray's ATC?

Steve

no.

heres how it was before xmas:

Attachment 345402

the spindle is 4.7kw, 24000rpm iso30, ceramic bearings with an air release. it was intended for my router, but it turned out to be much too large and heavy. so im remaking the head of the novakon to clamp onto the nose, which is 110mm diam, 100mm long.

the only drawback to this spindle in a mill, is that its not well sealed for flood coolant. thats fine for me though as i use a mister and 99% of what i cut is aluminium. the air purge should keep everything out.

this is on the mill table right now: i need to order in a longer cutter to finish it up and then bore it to 110mm.

Attachment 345406



im filling the base, column, and head with an epoxy granite type mix, to add some damping and mass. im also constructing an enclosure and covers for it from some sheet steel i have in the shop. but thats a bit of a ways off. after i finish the spindle head, the next thing to do is the XY and Z saddles and ball nut and motor mounts (wont me nema34 anymore). basically i need to get it in a state where it moves, then ill be working on the linux / ethercat control for a while. theres no timeline for any of this. i just poke at it when i have time - and constantly change my mind about the details, haha

[tmarks11]

call siemens directly. my quote on a complete 4 axis the 828d basic (240 series) was not much different than that listed price. (the 808 series didnt have csa approval yet so there was no price. the 840d, as seen on high end machines, is A LOT more money.)

Ask Novakon if they will quote you a Pulser Pro Servo with 808D.

You never know, they might go for it.

Smithy was selling a variant of the last generation Novakon for awhile, so they might be from the same factory and the 808D might be available as an option.

[ihavenofish]

Ask Novakon if they will quote you a Pulser Pro Servo with 808D.

You never know, they might go for it.

Smithy was selling a variant of the last generation Novakon for awhile, so they might be from the same factory and the 808D might be available as an option.

808d is not certified for use in canada. its certification for use in the US was... questionable. as in, smithy obviously is using it, but its a direct from china deal that may or may not be officially allowed in the US. my siemens guy didnt seem to have an answer for that.

but indeed, it might be good to ask novakon again. we talked about this a little before, but that was some years ago and things have changed both at siemens and novakon since.

[SCzEngrgGroup]

If you like PathPilot, and you like the Torus Pro, then run PathPilot on the Torus Pro. Several people here been running PathPilot on their Novakons four a couple of years. It's relatively cheap and easy to setup.

Regards,
Ray L.

[109jb]

If all you want is the stability of PathPilot then LinuxCNC give it to you and is easier to set up. PathPilot has LinuxCNC at its core with a custom user interface, and the only real difference is the interface. There are many interfaces available for LinuxCNC and setup of LinuxCNC from their LiveCD download is a snap. You can even try it out from the liveCD before committing to install.

[LeeWay]

I think the key to Path Pilot is the Mesa Card interface to Linux. Never had a single glitch with the mesa card. I can also tell you that if I can install Path Pilot on a Novakon, then just about anyone can. Brian's trail blazing helped tremendously, but when all is said and done, it is a pretty simple swap. My biggest fear was working with Linux, which as it turns out is not much different than using Windows.

[wfr8577]

That is really great to hear. Thanks again.

[kvom]

Another option for the Torus is Mach4. It supports the smoothstepper interface. I would have thought Novakon would be at least doing some testing with it given that Mach3 is essentially a sunsetted product.

[ger21]

Another option for the Torus is Mach4.

Maybe if it was finished. Many people still consider Mach4 to be an unfinished product. And the Smoothstepper plugin still does not support all of Mach4 functionality, after 3 years of plugin development.

[mklotz70]

Thanks wfr8577! Always nice to hear about someone watching the vids.

I'm really enjoying my Pro! My biggest grief by far...pretty much my only grief at this point... is mach3!!!!!

I was pretty surprised at the AutomateCNC offerings....didn't know about them. Last I looked, they were still Smithy. I didn't have time to look much. Looks like you need to get theRaptor TP-1040M to get the same work envelope and they don't have a price on it yet since it's still "in the works". I think I'd take the Pro with servos and PP/linux over it, anyway. As appealing as the 5hp spec is, the 3ph requirement negates it.

The BT30 spindle might be nice, but that adds a lot to tooling costs. I'll bet you already have a bunch of R8 tooling for your current mill. Ray's PDB and tool changer are better than the options on either of the other two choices. Heck...Ray's upgrades are enough better that I would drop the tormach from consideration. When I decided on my Pro, I wanted the biggest envelope....period. At the end of the day, you just can't make the machine any bigger. Seriously....the second biggest reason I bought the Pro......Ray's PDB. If you have existing R8 tooling, being able to run the collet out completely is just plain awesome!

I just put up one of the recent vids of it cutting steel. Skip to 15:40 in the vid.

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/novako...ml#post1982440

My 2 cents is only worth about a penny, but there it is.

[Steve303]

I'm really enjoying my Pro! My biggest grief by far...pretty much my only grief at this point... is mach3!!!!!

Mike it was your videos that helped me decide to go with a Novakon! You should really give PathPilot a try. Purchase a SDD and a MESA card. Install PP on the second drive so as not to overwrite Mach3 and give it a run and see what you think of it.

Steve

[wfr8577]

Mike it was your videos that helped me decide to go with a Novakon! You should really give PathPilot a try. Purchase a SDD and a MESA card. Install PP on the second drive so as not to overwrite Mach3 and give it a run and see what you think of it.

Tormach's site now says that you have to have a machine S/N to even order the disc. Is there a way around that?

[mklotz70]

Cool! I'm happy to hear that! Thanks!!

[mklotz70]

I had just PM'd Steve about that. I didn't see it on their site, but I thought that's what I had heard in another post somewhere. I can understand their position.....if their controller can be used to make their competition's machine more desirable than theirs.....it would be self defeating.

[Steve303]

I just checked Tormach's site and they do now want a serial number. Last spring I ordered the disk directly from Tormach without a hitch. My understanding is PP is open source. Does anyone know if that means someone can send a friend a copy of the PP disk without infringing on copyright?

Steve.