[SRT Mike]

I know the obvious answer is "call the dealer" but I am just curious. If I call the dealer he will want to come out and harass me once a month for the next eleven years and come to my shop uninvited because he was "in the area"

What do the Nexus mills (like the 410a) go for?

I'm guessing maybe 60-75k but it could be anything from $50k to $150k I guess.

[wizard]

I hear Mazak mills go for other Mazak mills

Ok maybe not that funny but it really is a guestion for the dealer to answer. Answers here can be very honest but also misleading unless all the documents to the trasaction are posted. You might find out what the base mill price is and that may be usefull but then you have options, trade ins, modifications and what have you that bet thrown into the deal. Beyond all that you have to deterimine if the dealer is a bit behind on his latest boat payment.

It comes down to this; buying machine tools is not like buying baked beans at the local market. There really isn't anything that can't be negotiated and the more machines you intend to buy the more leverge you have in those discussions.

Dave

[SRT Mike]

I hear Mazak mills go for other Mazak mills

Ok maybe not that funny but it really is a guestion for the dealer to answer. Answers here can be very honest but also misleading unless all the documents to the trasaction are posted. You might find out what the base mill price is and that may be usefull but then you have options, trade ins, modifications and what have you that bet thrown into the deal. Beyond all that you have to deterimine if the dealer is a bit behind on his latest boat payment.

It comes down to this; buying machine tools is not like buying baked beans at the local market. There really isn't anything that can't be negotiated and the more machines you intend to buy the more leverge you have in those discussions.

Dave

I'll give em a call I guess. We are just sort of interested in buying one. We machine acrylic all day and a lot of aluminum. for the acrylic, a fast spindle is good as is a good chip conveyor and fast rapids and cut feedrate. Aluminum is much the same. I love some of the top end stuff like DMG with linear drives and 3000+ipm feedrates, but I could never justify the cost. On the other hand, a Haas VF1 with the optional 15kRPM spindle would be just around $60k and do the job nicely. I'd prefer to go upmarket from Haas though and I heard Mazak was a good compromise of price/quality without getting into Mori pricing, but you never know.

Whenever I call the sales offices, they want to send a guy out who snoops around and just tries to wring us for all we got. I tend to be short and demanding with these guys and tell them I don't want 'em coming by unless I ask, then they get annoyed and think I'm "not serious"

[ChrisJ]

This response comes from no experience in VMC's what so ever. I just happened to be viewing the specifications on a Robodrill.

So, that being said, the Fanuc Robodrills have some interesting specifications that seem appropriate for very high speed machining for lighter materials.

I watched the videos on their website. Looked very impressive. I hear these are in the $70K range. FWIW.

Robodrill

Chris

[ctate2000]

Just say no to HAAS. Fadal makes an excellent mill and they have 15,000 rpm spindles now. We have had excellent service from ours. The oldest was bought in 95 and we run the piss out of it. 7500 rpm (all it will do) and 60 ipm travels 8 hours a day. Only thing we have replaced is the air cylinder on the tool changer. We rebuilt it actualy and it cost us four hours time and 35 dollars in parts. We bought two more later and have had no trouble. You can buy a remanufatured machine around 35K.

[wizard]

I'll give em a call I guess. We are just sort of interested in buying one. We machine acrylic all day and a lot of aluminum. for the acrylic, a fast spindle is good as is a good chip conveyor and fast rapids and cut feedrate. Aluminum is much the same.

If you are focused on plastics and aluminum why are you buying a mill at all, much less an high end machine. Would it not make more sense to get the cheapest machine available with the required spindle speed. More so why not get a router type machine?

I love some of the top end stuff like DMG with linear drives and 3000+ipm feedrates, but I could never justify the cost. On the other hand, a Haas VF1 with the optional 15kRPM spindle would be just around $60k and do the job nicely. I'd prefer to go upmarket from Haas though and I heard Mazak was a good compromise of price/quality without getting into Mori pricing, but you never know.

I'm still wondering why you need to go up market, is this aerospace tolerance work or interesting geometries that require a top end mill?

Frankly I'm not sure where all the negatvity about HAAS comes from. I personaly know of machines from HAAS placed in tool and die shops doing work in the optics industry. They are not a bad machine, but like all machines need to be properly applied. Some shops have FADALs and HAAS side beside. AS to high end machines haven't even seen many of them around, pretty hard to justify.

Whenever I call the sales offices, they want to send a guy out who snoops around and just tries to wring us for all we got. I tend to be short and demanding with these guys and tell them I don't want 'em coming by unless I ask, then they get annoyed and think I'm "not serious"

Well maybe you are not serious. A sales rep needs some understanding of your needs before offering up a machine. Not that I like sales reps any more than the next guy, but they do have a function. The problem is as I see it they may be coming to the right conclusion if you are asking about a high end mill when you are machining plastics and aluminum.

IF the goal is to increase current produciton why not consider something at the other end of the spectrum. Ideally a machine that you can get 100% ROI in a year.

Now if your goal is to expand into other fields then I'm more than willing to support the idea of a higher end machine. Even there it has to be a machine suitable for the direction you want to go in.

Thanks
Dave

[SRT Mike]

If you are focused on plastics and aluminum why are you buying a mill at all, much less an high end machine. Would it not make more sense to get the cheapest machine available with the required spindle speed. More so why not get a router type machine?

I'm still wondering why you need to go up market, is this aerospace tolerance work or interesting geometries that require a top end mill?

Well, I own the company so I absolutely agree that the cheapest machine that will do the job is a good decision. However, we do R&D on new products so I may find myself doing anything from countouring stainless for a mold insert or.... who knows? I am not sure I'd say Mazak is "up market" but maybe I'm wrong. I dont know where a Mazak Nexus 410 falls in the market. It could be $75k or it could be $175k. I loved the DMG with the linear drives - 3000+ IPM feeds, but it was $250k! For that price, no thanks.

Frankly I'm not sure where all the negatvity about HAAS comes from. I personaly know of machines from HAAS placed in tool and die shops doing work in the optics industry. They are not a bad machine, but like all machines need to be properly applied. Some shops have FADALs and HAAS side beside. AS to high end machines haven't even seen many of them around, pretty hard to justify.

I am not an anti-Haas guy by any means, but there are a few things I dont like. First, everything is an option. So while a VF-1 is low priced compared to everything else, when you add the 15k spindle, chip auger, 1MB of memory, hard drive, bigger coolant tank, rigid tapping, etc, etc you suddenly find the $50k machine is a $75k machine. Nothing wrong with that but it does change the relative price differential. The other thing I dislike about Haas is that my HFO sucks. I went to a demo day as a serious buyer and was essentially ignored when I wanted to see the TM-1 run a part. The sales rep stops by and doesn't want to listen to our problems and offer up solutions, he just wants to sell the biggest machine he can as qucikly as he can. I know the day he got the $$ I'd never see him again unless he though we'd buy another machine. His sales pitch revolves around saying the other machines suck (backed up with no data). The Fadal EMC is *clearly* a better buy than a Haas MiniMill. Its about $2k more, more RPM, more cutting area, faster rapids, blah blah. When I was up front with the rep and said this, he went into a tirade about how Fadal steals ideas from Haas and we'd be buying a "copy of the real thing". LOL ok buddy! He came back with a machine that would kill the EMC, and it was a VF2.... at about $30k MORE than the EMC. He went over how much better it was, and it was, but it was a lot more money. So I told him this and he went on about how it's not the price of the machine its how much we make on it.

Contrast that with the Fadal rep. They were very honest about the new control and suggested we might want to wait for the bugs to be worked out. He also suggested a used machine that he could let go for a great price with tooling even though he'd make much less on it, but it was a better fit for us at that time (and it was). So thats my beef with Haas. I wouldn't count them out of any decision but when the options get added and the price goes up, I'd take other brands over Haas if the price was within 10% or so.

Well maybe you are not serious. A sales rep needs some understanding of your needs before offering up a machine. Not that I like sales reps any more than the next guy, but they do have a function. The problem is as I see it they may be coming to the right conclusion if you are asking about a high end mill when you are machining plastics and aluminum.

I have a mill now - it's running 10 hours a day and I'm not keeping up with production and production will be rising into May/June. I'm somewhat serious - if the right deal comes along I'll take it. If not, I'll keep my eyes on the used market and add a 2nd shift or 3rd if need be. As I said, its my money I'm spending so if one machine is $40k more than another, that could be a new BMW for me - so yeah, I take it seriously. Sales reps ALWAYS ALWAYS will say whatever they need to in order to get your money. Its not about understanding my needs, its about making the sale from within their product range. If a Mazak 410 would be a better buy for me over a VF2, that Haas rep isn't ever going to say that even if he knows it.

IF the goal is to increase current produciton why not consider something at the other end of the spectrum. Ideally a machine that you can get 100% ROI in a year.

Now if your goal is to expand into other fields then I'm more than willing to support the idea of a higher end machine. Even there it has to be a machine suitable for the direction you want to go in.

Quite frankly, the parts we are running have a very high profit margin, so on a $200k machine, I could get ROI in 1 month. On the other hand, I could get a cheaper machine that would do the job too and make my money back in a week. I could buy the same mill we have now and spend $15k on a used one (hell at that price I could get 2 used ones) and do even better on ROI. We're a small company and constantly expanding into new fields. Probably never end up doing Ti and lots of stainless or anything, but we do a lot of R&D and testing and development of new products.

The thing is, the high spindle speeds (like 20kRPM) and high rapids (like 500+ipm cut feed rate) don't come on thinks like Fadals - you're talking a step up on the machine. Or, I could get 2 Fadal EMC's or 2 used Fadal 15XT's or 3016's or something. We're looking to injection mold our own parts later this year and that would require us making molds (in AL, not steel) and I think something like the Mazak might be better for that than something like the EMC.

I also really like the DMG mills. At Eastec last year one of the DMG guys gave me a full presentation on their complete product line, explained everything and mailed me a beautiful full color catalog after the event. He knew I was not a buyer that year but he wanted to introduce me to DMG. Turns out he is the President of DMG North America and he wrote me a letter after the show to say thanks for stopping by. That impressed me a whole lot and I've heard that the whole organization is very professional just like he was. The following year at Eastec I saw they had some lower priced mills that IMO are just very well engineered and not that much more than some of the lower end stuff.

I'm thinking about it - not the $250k one with linear drives, but definitely the $85k machine instead of a loaded up Haas VF2SS.

[wizard]

Well, I own the company so I absolutely agree that the cheapest machine that will do the job is a good decision. However, we do R&D on new products so I may find myself doing anything from countouring stainless for a mold insert or.... who knows? I am not sure I'd say Mazak is "up market" but maybe I'm wrong. I dont know where a Mazak Nexus 410 falls in the market. It could be $75k or it could be $175k. I loved the DMG with the linear drives - 3000+ IPM feeds, but it was $250k! For that price, no thanks.

Maybe what you need is two machines?

I am not an anti-Haas guy by any means, but there are a few things I dont like. First, everything is an option. So while a VF-1 is low priced compared to everything else, when you add the 15k spindle, chip auger, 1MB of memory, hard drive, bigger coolant tank, rigid tapping, etc, etc you suddenly find the $50k machine is a $75k machine. Nothing wrong with that but it does change the relative price differential.

Yeah I'm not a big fan of unbundling at all, on the other hand somethings need to be options. Spindles are one very good example of where choice is important.

On the other hand charging for Tapping and other software options gets a little old. I remeber way back on a machine where options where the matter fo flipping a bit in a keep register and they wanted to charge for enabling something that was already there. It does leave a bad taste in your mouth. Same sort of feeling coesinto play when you have to pay huge prices for memory and drives that are nothing more than off the shelf components. So yeah on your Ah's and Nay's check list this would probably result in a few negative checks.

The other thing I dislike about Haas is that my HFO sucks. I went to a demo day as a serious buyer and was essentially ignored when I wanted to see the TM-1 run a part. The sales rep stops by and doesn't want to listen to our problems and offer up solutions, he just wants to sell the biggest machine he can as qucikly as he can. I know the day he got the $$ I'd never see him again unless he though we'd buy another machine. His sales pitch revolves around saying the other machines suck (backed up with no data).

This sounds very bad and to be honest I don't think it represents HAAS world wide. You might consider expressing your feelings about your local sales office to somebody at HAAS. Eventually people like this get let go after sales go down in their territory. It never hurts to help the process along with a well written letter.

The Fadal EMC is *clearly* a better buy than a Haas MiniMill. Its about $2k more, more RPM, more cutting area, faster rapids, blah blah. When I was up front with the rep and said this, he went into a tirade about how Fadal steals ideas from Haas and we'd be buying a "copy of the real thing". LOL ok buddy! He came back with a machine that would kill the EMC, and it was a VF2.... at about $30k MORE than the EMC. He went over how much better it was, and it was, but it was a lot more money. So I told him this and he went on about how it's not the price of the machine its how much we make on it.

Contrast that with the Fadal rep. They were very honest about the new control and suggested we might want to wait for the bugs to be worked out. He also suggested a used machine that he could let go for a great price with tooling even though he'd make much less on it, but it was a better fit for us at that time (and it was). So thats my beef with Haas. I wouldn't count them out of any decision but when the options get added and the price goes up, I'd take other brands over Haas if the price was within 10% or so.

The FADAL rep is more of what I'd expect form a sales person. That is somebody that knows his machines well and knows how to apply them.

I have a mill now - it's running 10 hours a day and I'm not keeping up with production and production will be rising into May/June. I'm somewhat serious - if the right deal comes along I'll take it. If not, I'll keep my eyes on the used market and add a 2nd shift or 3rd if need be. As I said, its my money I'm spending so if one machine is $40k more than another, that could be a new BMW for me - so yeah, I take it seriously. Sales reps ALWAYS ALWAYS will say whatever they need to in order to get your money. Its not about understanding my needs, its about making the sale from within their product range. If a Mazak 410 would be a better buy for me over a VF2, that Haas rep isn't ever going to say that even if he knows it.

Clearly the FADAL rep did not stup to the level of say what ever is needed to get a sale, at least that is not what you have indicated. In any event I wold not even consider doing business with a company where the sales rep doesn't want to understand the application. Atleast ot some extent anyways, they do call them sales engineers which should imply a bit more intelligence than the gal at the mini mart. That doesn't mean they need to go around offering suggestions on somebody elses machinery but clearly they need to own up to not having the machine you need.

In some case though youo never end up with the ideal machine. Then you do need to find a best fit. It appears that your local HAAS reps idea of a best fit is the most expensive machine he can sell.

You may have to conceded that the HAAS reps smells the money. That is he knows what you ROI is and is looking for his cut of the action. Thust the push for a high end machine.

Quite frankly, the parts we are running have a very high profit margin, so on a $200k machine, I could get ROI in 1 month. On the other hand, I could get a cheaper machine that would do the job too and make my money back in a week. I could buy the same mill we have now and spend $15k on a used one (hell at that price I could get 2 used ones) and do even better on ROI. We're a small company and constantly expanding into new fields. Probably never end up doing Ti and lots of stainless or anything, but we do a lot of R&D and testing and development of new products.

As mentioned above, it may be the HAAS rep has an eye on what your potential ROI is. That could be a problem.

Seriously if you can buy a low cost machine, be it a mill, router or whatever, that you can pay off in a week then do it now. The closer that machine is to being optimized for the item being machined the better.

One thing that your seem to be obsessed with is a machine with a high speed spindle, this is likely to be useless for Ti or SS. So if you want to move into that area you really need to look at something differrent then your machine for the palstic parts. Your primary thooughts should be a stiff mill and a relatively slow (normal) speed spindle.

The thing is, the high spindle speeds (like 20kRPM) and high rapids (like 500+ipm cut feed rate) don't come on thinks like Fadals - you're talking a step up on the machine. Or, I could get 2 Fadal EMC's or 2 used Fadal 15XT's or 3016's or something. We're looking to injection mold our own parts later this year and that would require us making molds (in AL, not steel) and I think something like the Mazak might be better for that than something like the EMC.

A bit of a suggestion here, don't make your molds out of Aluminum unless you expect very low production quanities. I've been involved in Zinc die casting (20 years ago) and on the periphery of plastics molding since then, steel dies are well worth the investment.

I'm still of the opinion that you buy quickly a machine that is optimal for your current production demand and can be paid off immediately; then look for a second machine to handle the more serious work of makeing molds and other precision parts. A machine that is targeted at the mold making industry should be considered here.

Obviously such a machine can be used for other work, just don't expect it to be fast. The two machine approach is to avoid being caught with you pants down and not being able to meet production requirements. It will free up more time to more thoughtfully consider what mill you really need.

I also really like the DMG mills. At Eastec last year one of the DMG guys gave me a full presentation on their complete product line, explained everything and mailed me a beautiful full color catalog after the event. He knew I was not a buyer that year but he wanted to introduce me to DMG. Turns out he is the President of DMG North America and he wrote me a letter after the show to say thanks for stopping by. That impressed me a whole lot and I've heard that the whole organization is very professional just like he was. The following year at Eastec I saw they had some lower priced mills that IMO are just very well engineered and not that much more than some of the lower end stuff.

Deckel does make nice stuff and has been around for awhile.

I'm thinking about it - not the $250k one with linear drives, but definitely the $85k machine instead of a loaded up Haas VF2SS.

I can't say to much about the linear drives as I've not worked with such drives. I do have to wonder about dynaimc stiffness and wehter the high speed capability means much on a machine that is machining SS or Iron based materials.

Note that my perspective is from the standpoint of an automation technician. I've often seen capabilities purchased that never get used. Of course this is a large company so no one cares. There is also like three different "machine shops" in the same plant here so I try to base my opinions on what I see. That means the negative things stand out.

Dave

[David]

Mike,
A Nexus 410A will run in the general neighborhood of $100k, the exact price depending on options, your dealer's heart at the time, etc. However, you are getting what you pay for, an excellent, solid machine with plenty of capability. We have Mazak machines still running 24/7 production that have in excess of 15 million cycles on them. These aren't 'easy' cycles either....hehe. With well over 200 Mazaks on the production floor, in very demanding applications, I can vouch for the reliability.

[goodplastics]

I run acrylic all day everyday. I agree you need high feed and rpm to cut cleanly. Most of the plastics chores fall on our CNC router spinning 20k moving 100 to 200 IPM but it can go to 600 IPM. I picked up a 1992 Fanuc drill mate (same as robodrill) with 0Mb control for under $20k. It is a solid machine that spins up to 10k and rapids at almost 2k IPM. It is great for plastic and aluminum and I highly recomend it if you can live with a BT-30 spindle. I know a lot of us plastics guys like the drillmate / robodrills and the prices used are great! I got mine from Jack at discovermachinery... He found it at western for me ( I don't like western!) and I had to have A&A remanufacture the teleflex guards and clean it up as well as some simple service... lube everything and new windows, but I got my moneys worth and then some! It should be in service full time inside 30 days. I'll share and pics and manual questions that come my way.
Cheers,
Jason
:cheers:

[goodplastics]

There are about 5 robodrills on ebay right now and they will probably go CHEAP! you may want to snag one and save big bucks!
:cheers:

[SRT Mike]

There are about 5 robodrills on ebay right now and they will probably go CHEAP! you may want to snag one and save big bucks!
:cheers:

Shhhhh, don't tell everyone

Thanks for the feedback, I checked out the video on Fanuc's website and since two people suggested it I'm looking into it.

Question... what is the difference between a "drilling machine" and a "CNC machine"? Is the drilling machine less rigid in side load? Is the spindle still speed-controllable? I mean whats the difference from our existing VMC just so I know what I'm getting into

Thanks!!!!
-Mike

[David]

Shhhhh, don't tell everyone

Thanks for the feedback, I checked out the video on Fanuc's website and since two people suggested it I'm looking into it.

Question... what is the difference between a "drilling machine" and a "CNC machine"? Is the drilling machine less rigid in side load? Is the spindle still speed-controllable? I mean whats the difference from our existing VMC just so I know what I'm getting into

Thanks!!!!
-Mike

Yes, typically they are less rigid. Many have a smaller work envelope also. They are made for drilling and tapping, not side milling.
Also, I saw you referring to DMG in an earlier post. I have to suggest you do not get one. We have 10 5-axis versions, and although they are excellent machines, the service SUCKS. We have had one down going on 10 weeks now and DMG Service seems to not care, and globally, we are a fairly large customer of thier higher end machines. If they treat us this way on service, I really feel for the small shops out there that have to deal with it.

[SRT Mike]

To add some closure for future searches, the new Nexus 410a machine goes for around $80k base price. That's without a chip conveyor, but some stuff is included thats optional on a machine like a Haas. Nice spindle speed and rapids in the base machine - something to think about

[diarmaid]

Im not in your guys league re. prices or experience but heres my two cents worth.
I've decided against two types of plasma cnc because of bad service reports on this site and others. Dont waste time asking the Haas sales rep or any other for that matter for info, they're all a waste of time. They want to sell their machines...which is fair enough. DONT LISTEN TO SALES REPS.
Spend the time on the internet/phone/perusing sales and user manuals selecting as many machines as possible that would do whats necessary. If a company wont send a prospective sale a user manual to look at walk away. Then talk to/visit other users about the machines performance and especially the aftersales customer care.
Then buy the one that everyone says is best.
Also...I'd be prepared to pay a little more for excellent aftersales service so I know Im not going to be riddled by downtime.

[DareBee]

A trustworthy used equipment dealer is a good source for info as well as independent service technicians.
Most of these guys are hardworking, honest, independants that will share their knowledge and often wont jockey equipment that is troublesome.

[David]

To add some closure for future searches, the new Nexus 410a machine goes for around $80k base price. That's without a chip conveyor, but some stuff is included thats optional on a machine like a Haas. Nice spindle speed and rapids in the base machine - something to think about

We have several 410a's nice machines. The $100k was with chip conveyor and other options we use. Another thing to look at is the warranty between the different machines you are interested in.