[ajg762]

Hi Guys
im a tool maker in New Zealand, and am looking at starting my own small machining shop, and am after a small good quality CNC Mill to complete my workshop and was thinking about the Tormach PCNC 1100 with ATC and 4th axis set ups. i will be doing mostly one offs and small production runs in about 60% aluminium work and the rest in steel and tool steels. i will also be working with solidworks and spurtcam.

is there anyone out there in NZ with this mill that i can talk to/ visit?
Is this machine reliable? has anyone had any issues with it?
is the software user friendly and easy to learn?
is spurtcam user friendly and easy to learn?
does anyone have any issues with the machine holding its tolerances?
any comments on the ATC and 4th axis set ups?
basically is this machine worth buying or should i be looking at another more heavy duty machine? if anyone has any comments please feel free to say.

any information and personal advice/experience would be very helpful

Alister

[luv2ride]

Hey Alister,

Only you can judge if it is worth it or not. I found one local fully tooled with 4th axis, 5C, clamping kits and so on for about the same price as a base 770....I couldn't pass it up! It would be nice to have a new one and not have to clean it up but that's the price you pay. I don't have PDB or ATC though.

There are plenty of posts here that say people are more than happy with them. The software (MACH3) can be a little buggy at times but I've had no issues with Toramch's controller already set up.
SprutCAM seems to be more difficult to learn from all the reviews but I had never used any other CAM program and find it tolerable. It has many capabilities above it's price and functions mostly well I think.
The 4th axis depends on what you are going to use it for. I talked to guys using it like I do and they said get something better. I don't think I will have issues as I will use it for positioning and it will only move one direction (for now) as to not worry about backlash, basically a positioner.

Hope this helps somewhat.

[wwendorf]

Yep, worth it is up to you, for sure. I'm very happy with my 770. It's a great little machine.

As far as sprutcam goes, just watch the online videos and work along with them, and you'll pick it up in no time. Also, Eric at Tormach is a wealth of knowledge, and can help you with any issues you might run into.

Wade

[MichaelHenry]

Mine is just about 8 years old now and I'd buy another one. I use it for R&D prototypes and some very light production runs of 10-20 pieces.

Tormach can put you in contact with any local owners that are willing to demo their own mills:

Mill Demos & Referrals | Tormach LLC providers of personal small CNC machines, CNC tooling, and many more CNC items.

Mike

[ajg762]

Thanks guys ill be contacting tormach soon with a list of questions and what not. keep me posted if you have any other thoughts.

[Tkamsker]

Hi when i bought my machine i Made an Excel to Compare to avoid gut feelings i did weight from 1 to 5 and in my List tormach was 2nd ( i Compared 5 Systems) i think sprutcam has a steep learning curve it is an rigid Tool but the Ui was for me horrible ...

[AVRnj]

I have an 1100, series 3 and overall I am very happy with the machine.

I don't think there is anything overly special about the machine itself , when comparing to some of its competitors, it is less powerful, less weight and less travels than say a Torus Pro or a Smithy Talon, there is nothing overly special mecahnically, it uses good quality ballscrews and double nuts, has a quality coating on the ways, but still uses dovetail ways, does not have crazy fast rapids, etc and does not have huge travels.

What is special about the Tormach IMO is their support is unbelievable, even if you buy a used machine, they stand by their product like few companies do these days. They always have pretty much every spare part in stock which is nice, they have fantastic documentation, and they have a very integrated solution for almost anything you want to add on within reason.

You want a power drawbar, they got it, you want an ATC, they got it, they have the Mach3 version to support the ATC and setup it up quickly, they have a nice integrated 4th axis, probes, etc. and they have tons of videos on how to use it, set it up, etc.

If the support and the integrated solution are important, you really cannot go wrong with this machine, they hold their value very well as they are very popular and have a high resale value, and if needed they will hold your hand through any problem you have, no matter how basic or complex. If those things are not as important, perhaps a competitor would offer more value to you.

[LeeWay]

By most accounts, Tormach machines are a good value. I did research them heavily at one point. I was looking hard at the 770. I wound up buying something else for the rigid tapping feature it had and have been happy.
I might have been happy with the 770 as well, because I did have a tapping head at the time. I do buy almost all my tool holders from them and I can tell you that the experience was just as you would like to have from a company that cares. I don't think you can go wrong buying from them.
Good luck with whatever you choose.

[Don Clement]

A subject line as this one does so chum the waters.

[LeeWay]

Did you intend to include some helpful comments, Don?

[Don Clement]

Really Novocain Leeway the chum was just too hard to resist right?

I have owned a series 1 Tormach PCNC 1100 for six years with no real issues. I use both SprutCAM and Solidworks with my Tormach. I do both prototype and limited production with my Tormach . One nice thing about Tormach is the ability to upgrade an existing machine like my reliable series 1 to have the more advanced features of the current Tormach series so Tormach is backward compatible and does not go out of date when a new model comes out. Also I have a PDB which has become an essential accessory that does for me about 95% ATC does. The Tormach holds tolerances well. SprutCAM has a steep learning curve but is also an affordable yet extremely powerful 3D CAM software that works well with Solidworks CAD. Tormach support is the best I have ever seen. I would buy another Tormach.

Don Clement

Quint: [Poking fun at Brody] Ah, the missus, Chief. If they don't like you going out, they'll love you comin' in.

[LeeWay]

There you go.
Yeah, sharks like chum.

[mountaindew]

Easy question to answer!
Like others have stated above, it is a well designed system for the cost!
I based my purchase on the following metrics company history, product development, system integration, reliability, resale, appearance, cost, customer service, documentation and user base!

Company history #1 this much money the company better be around for a long time! This includes some corporate depth in all departments like finance, product design, quality control, advertising, training, social media, advanced projects.

Product development #2 Is this company growing and adding goods and services to its product line or lines. And how many products do they offer or working on!

System Integration #3 Having a Product that is a complete working system with hundreds of choices and options for tools, software and options.

Reliability #4 Having a product that works and a company that makes and sells parts for its products insurers the user of many years of use.

Resale #5 This more or less speaks for itself, I looked for a used machine for over a year and found very little. This told me the owners didn't want to sell them.

Appearance #6 Good looking design of tool and options including, workmanship and paint. "it looks sexy in my shop" and sex sells!!!!!!

Cost #7 As a professional cost estimator I can say they make an effort to control cost and limit value added numbers. This helps provide a product at a decent market price that can be developed and supported long term!

Customer service #8 Very important when you need it some need it more often then others and always taken for granted. This company has one of the best track records of any company I have ever done business with.

Documentation #9 Does the product come with decent manuals for assembly and use.

User base #10 A very wide base of users including machinists, inventors, modelers, jewelers, firearms, teaching and training, you name it.

There is 10 reasons to consider from a owner, user and a person that spent most their life evaluating cost or if its WORTH IT!
md

[sansbury]

I know that being in New Zealand limits your options quite a bit. If you are used to working with any typical industrial VMC, even a light one like the smaller Haas, Fadal, etc., the Tormach might feel very limiting with its 1.5HP spindle and ~1000 pounds of weight. Here in the US, the ~$20,000 you'd spend on a full setup with ATC and 4th could get you into a lot of used VMCs with ATC, enclosure, 4th-axis ready, etc., or would get you into a new Haas with ~$1k/mo ongoing payments. So the vast majority of guys here with experience tend to go that way, though you will find exceptions for various reasons. It's nice to have a machine with warranty and no payments, and if you have nothing, no tooling, etc., the TTS system costs less than CAT40. It's also a lot easier to incorporate a Tormach into a small shop or home. Even in an industrial building, it would have cost me several thousand dollars more to get 3-phase power to my space than the 220V line cost. Also saved >$1000 being able to rig the machine myself. No way I'd have tried that with even a small VMC. I'm assuming that where you are, the supply of used machines is poor and the cost of new is significantly higher, so the cost savings with Tormach may be much larger for you than they would be for someone here.

For prototype work where >90% of your time is spent getting ready to make one part, the Tormach is probably fine for most users. If you can get jobs done with 10 tools and don't need rigid tapping, through-spindle coolant, or do large workpieces in harder materials, the time difference between the Tormach and a larger VMC may be fairly small. My parts would run faster on a Mori Seiki, sure, but the time saved would be immaterial.

Where I have felt limited by the Tormach in the year I've had mine is with production. I have a client who I've done batches of ~10 parts for, small aluminum things that require very little machining but some clever fixturing. His job has 4 different parts, I built a fixture that could hold up to ten of any of them at a time (I didn't know volume so I wanted to keep fixture cost low), and that takes up the whole table. I could be a bit more efficient so could maybe get up to twenty on the table, but that's definitely it. Now he wants a run of 100, and I told him he'd have to go elsewhere because I didn't feel like spending 6-8 days loading parts ten at a time for what I would have made. A VMC with a table 3-5x the size could easily do 100 at a time in one setup in probably 60-90 minutes, so you could do the full run in one or two days. Larger parts would push the numbers even harder, but these were also really cheap parts ($5 per with customer-supplied material) and larger parts might pay better. This customer is still coming to me for design changes and such which tend to be 2-3 hours to make a couple of parts. That is much more up my alley with the current setup.

[ajg762]

Thanks heaps guys for all your comments, and to Sansbury you are correct, there are no small cnc mills such as this in New Zealand and certainly no anywhere near this price range. all the machine dealers here just deal with big production machines that are at minimium 3 to 4 times the price of a tormach and certainly out of my price range (and that's for 2nd hand as well ) . how do you find the machine accuracy over production runs? as it is a small light weight machine. I'm getting really keen on this mill, certainly haven't heard anything to put me off it.

[Peter Neill]

ajg762 - do a search in the Tormach board for posts by a user named "keen". This chap is a compatriot of yours and also a toolmaker, and was an early adopter of the Tormach over in New Zealand.
He seems to have been very pleased with it for a number of tasks.

Whereabouts in NZ are you btw? I spent a couple of months working out in Wanganui with a view to emigrating there around 10 years ago. Had a great time but decided it was not for me.

[sansbury]

how do you find the machine accuracy over production runs? as it is a small light weight machine.

I haven't had any problems, but I also haven't pushed it very hard. The parts I've made in volume have pretty easy tolerances (+/- .005" or more) and I haven't had to work to hit them. These parts require very little metal removal so chip clearing hasn't been a challenge. Other people have more trouble with this and some people have made higher-capacity coolant pumps and tanks to provide more flood than the standard system supports. Tormach is also now offering a full enclosure which I suspect will have a number of takers. Running flood with just the 3-sided shield they sell definitely gets messy. There are other people here who have made a lot more repetitive parts than I have and could comment more knowledgeably on their results. Tormach will also tell you this is more of a prototype machine than anything else. It would help to know more about what kind of work you want to do, size, materials, uses, etc.

[ajg762]

I have been talking to a few people here that tormach put me onto and other than the odd small issue have only heard good things.I'm from just out of Palmerston North. the machine will be manly for prototyping but will also be doing small productions runs 10 of large parts and 30 of smaller parts sort of thing. most in aluminium but some in mild and tool steels. the work will range from injection molding dies, to press tools, to firearm parts, cleaning up casting, and specialty parts that i cant really mention. some parts will be requiring bearing fits and others not, so the ablity to hold +-.02mm would be handy for some parts and for others .1mm would be fine. also has anyone got any comments on the duality lath attachment? there is a job in the works requiring the turning, tapping, threadcutting and parting (and milling) of a bunch of small pins, not quite worth getting a full cnc lath yet but to much to do manual.

[Tkamsker]

You referring of doing lathe work on the Mill. I would rather get an good lathe and cnc it. (I have an Setup where i can do Manual lathe work and switch to cnc lathe for batch or special work like kones Balls etc. ) i found that the Mounting time if you have something on the Mill and you need an small piece on the lathe ...

[sansbury]

0.1mm probably won't be a challenge most of the time (that's about .004" for us Yanks) in aluminum; tool steel I have very limited experience with but imagine you could get there with proper machining strategies. I do non-precision press fits for small bearings (50mm and under) with interpolation. The holes are sometimes a little oval, less so if I do a finish pass. There's always the option to finish with a boring head if you must have high precision. Can you hit .02mm tolerances (about eight tenths)? In many cases yes, particularly if you don't mind sneaking up on a dimension or making a few pieces of scrap while dialing in the process. This is talking parts that fit in a 6" vise. I haven't made any half-meter parts with bores at opposite ends that need to be exactly 46.72mm apart and put the part on a CMM. At that level of precision on larger parts you'll start needing to factor in screw pitch deviation and other fun things. I believe that both Mach and LinuxCNC can use screw mappings to provide some compensation but I've not seen many accounts of people doing that, and you do need some additional equipment.

Regarding the Duality lathe, it's not something I'd take seriously. It was an interesting idea but for the same money you could get a much better manual lathe. I've been shopping around on lathes and I've come to the conclusion that I don't really need a CNC lathe, just a good manual one with a QCGB, DRO, quick-change tooling, and power feeds on both axes. I have a project right now that consists of a few dozen parts, and less than a quarter of them are turned, and all of those are pretty simple. I just do a lot more milled parts than turned ones, and the turned ones I do work on, are practical to do manually pretty easily.