[LRF]

After running my Tormach 1100 with ATC for more then 15 months in production I have decided not to use the ATC anymore and go totally manual on tool changes. There are a number of reasons; however the first and foremost is that it is just to slow on the tool changes. (there is also a blood pressure issue with it's not so perfect reliability; but that is not the primary reason)
Generally my programs use between 4 and 8 tools and longest program cycle time currently is 16 minutes. Tool changes (stop cut to start cut) are aprox 23 to 25 seconds. Manually I can do the same thing in more like 12 (including the Tormach spindle spool up): 23-12*8 tool changes = 88 or 1min 28sec lost for tool changes on a run of 100 parts that is 2.4 hours lost productivity to the ATC @ shop rate that is real money

I would like to see Tormach offer a faster and more long term reliable ATC option.

[Steve Seebold]

I can't say anything negative about the ATC as I don't have one on my machine. I've had mine since July 2011 and the ATC wasn't available when I bought it. I first saw the ATC at an open house at Little Machine Shop near the end of October the same year.

Like LRF mentioned, most of my work requires 3 to 6 tools and I have one job that requires 9. I only run the 9 tool job about 3 times per year, and it takes about 27 minutes to make each part. No it's not the ideal set up, but it works for me.

I have my cad/cam computer right next to my machine so I can design and program new jobs and parts while the machine runs, and if I don't want to do that, then I have a 46 inch TV right above the computer monitor.

My main parts are running gear for gas powered remote control race boats. I started making my own because the stuff that's available out there is not up to my expectations.

[Ken_Shea]

What I see of the tool change is that the actual tool change operation is decently fast but the move into position and back to machining operation that is SOOOOOO slow, it's painful to watch.
My suspect is that is set by Tormach for safety reasons because it is an open machine for hobbyist, (and thats not completely without good reasoning), any chance there is a parameter setting that can be changed to increase that speed or if there is a built in delay like my Haas TM-1 default settings had originally ?

[CadRhino]

I have an ATC but have not used it yet since my work has been prototypes and I have been learning.
Can you tLk about some of the reliability issues you have been having. I am ready to start using the ATC and would appreciate hearing about your experiences.
Thanks
Nathan

After running my Tormach 1100 with ATC for more then 15 months in production I have decided not to use the ATC anymore and go totally manual on tool changes. There are a number of reasons; however the first and foremost is that it is just to slow on the tool changes. (there is also a blood pressure issue with it's not so perfect reliability; but that is not the primary reason)
Generally my programs use between 4 and 8 tools and longest program cycle time currently is 16 minutes. Tool changes (stop cut to start cut) are aprox 23 to 25 seconds. Manually I can do the same thing in more like 12 (including the Tormach spindle spool up): 23-12*8 tool changes = 88 or 1min 28sec lost for tool changes on a run of 100 parts that is 2.4 hours lost productivity to the ATC @ shop rate that is real money

I would like to see Tormach offer a faster and more long term reliable ATC option.

[jid2]

These sorts of awareness are what help to start doing the math on whether a proper VMC is a better fit. Tormach is a perfect fit for a lot of applications. When you start running repeated parts you get a good understanding of the complete process.

[LRF]

CadRhino,
1. The tool tray of the ATC is keyed to the motor shaft with a set screw. Make sure it is tight and then back it up with another lock set screw and use lock-tite on it. The blue stuff is the lip stick type dispenser works fine
2. Make sure you take care to align the tool tray to be perpendicular to the spindle as perfectly as you can in both X & Y.
3. Make sure you use the collet specified for the ATC. It is sprung to open .005" to .007" over the nominal 3/4". This clearance is essential
4. Overtime the collet can change and for some reason tighten up which reduces the open of .005" minimum. If it does it won't slide over the toolholder and will break the nylon bolts holding the tool tray yoke. CRASH BANG damaged tool, damage work piece. 30 mins to hours fixing it all.

Now when I say reliability I am not implying that crashes are common because they are not. However just one wastes time, costs lost productivity and raises the blood pressure cause you are always waiting for the next crash.

Manual tool changes are 100% perfect and save time the first premise of this writing

[Hirudin]

It's a shame that it's not reliable!

It seems like a reliable tool changer would always be a money-saver when doing production. Sure, you're losing 2.4 hours to the ATC, but you're gaining ~0.25 hours *per job* of "not standing in front of the machine" time. If you could confidently spend those quarter-hours doing other productive stuff, you could make up for the lost efficiency.

[LRF]

CadRhino, one other point, if using flood coolant it can get up inside the motor housing and cause problems. This did not happen to me but a friend who also uses his Tormach for production along with his VMC.
It's a maintenance issue but still is downtime.

[LRF]

Hirudin, I agree. The whole reason for spending the money was so I could multi task more

[treyjugson]

These sorts of awareness are what help to start doing the math on whether a proper VMC is a better fit. Tormach is a perfect fit for a lot of applications. When you start running repeated parts you get a good understanding of the complete process.

how many parts does it take to recoup the huge price difference?

[G59]

Could all this not be resolved through the post processor settings. You can adjust the speeds when it returns from tool change. Or am I wrong on the Tormach ATC.

I dont own a Tormach, but in most machines, the return from tool change and the speed is usually done by post processor, muxh like the go to tool change position is.

[CadRhino]

Thanks for the insight.
I bought the atc so I could multi task while running parts so I don't mind if it a little slower than manually changing. Reliability in the other hand is very important to me.
The one thing I have not figured out yet us how to position/fix the coolant nosels so it effective with all the tools I will be using. Right now I have to manually adjust it for every tool.
Anyone have any suggestions on this?
I would ultimately like to be confident in a setup and have my machine running parts through the night while I am sleeping.

Thanks
Nathan

CadRhino, one other point, if using flood coolant it can get up inside the motor housing and cause problems. This did not happen to me but a friend who also uses his Tormach for production along with his VMC.
It's a maintenance issue but still is downtime.

[treyjugson]

I would ultimately like to be confident in a setup and have my machine running parts through the night while I am sleeping.

Thanks
Nathan

that's a ridiculous expectation and foolhardy to boot even if you had a brand new brother vmc, did you not see what can happen in the insurance thread and that was with someone in the area of the shop. if you need parts running while you sleep, pay someone to babysit it because you never know what can happen.

[SCzEngrgGroup]

Thanks for the insight.
I bought the atc so I could multi task while running parts so I don't mind if it a little slower than manually changing. Reliability in the other hand is very important to me.
The one thing I have not figured out yet us how to position/fix the coolant nosels so it effective with all the tools I will be using. Right now I have to manually adjust it for every tool.
Anyone have any suggestions on this?
I would ultimately like to be confident in a setup and have my machine running parts through the night while I am sleeping.

Thanks
Nathan

Absent a programmable coolant nozzle that tracks tool length, I think the best you can do is to have several nozzles, aimed at different locations, to cover the range of positions needed for each job. With a high-flow pump, having 40 or more nozzles should not be a problem.

Regards,
Ray L.

[treyjugson]

read bozidars thread. http://www.cnczone.com/forums/open-s...t-nozzles.html

[SCzEngrgGroup]

I'm struggling to understand the logic here....

First, reliability of the ATC should be a virtual non-issue. If the ATC is properly adjusted (which is a very tedious, time-consuming, but one-time operation), it should be very reliable. Certainly no more than one failure in many thousands of tool changes, which is no doubt at least weeks of production.

Second, opting for manual toolchanges because the ATC is "too slow" makes no sense at all to me. While your toolchanges may be faster, you'll be wasting vast amounts of your time, which is surely worth more than the machines time. And, to really be faster, you'll need to be at the machine, waiting at the ready, when the toolchange rolls around. So, replacing 10 extra seconds of machine time will likely take several minutes of your time for every toolchange. Miss one, and you've lost any advantage you had for the next several toolchanges. Then, there will be times when a single tool is used only very briefly, so you'll have to stand there while that operation is run, to be at the ready for the next toolchange.

Third, and most important of all, there are countless other, better things, I can be doing with my time while the machine it doing its thing. Even the disruption caused by having to do a simple toolchange can derail my train of thought, or interrupt my concentration on some other task enough to cause significant delays, or mistakes, when I return to that other work. This will make this other work much less efficient.

To each his own, but for me, the time it takes to do a toolchange would be the very last reason I'd give to abandon use of an ATC.

Regards,
Ray L.

[philbur]

Generally my programs use between 4 and 8 tools and longest program cycle time currently is 16 minutes. Tool changes (stop cut to start cut) are aprox 23 to 25 seconds. Manually I can do the same thing in more like 12 (including the Tormach spindle spool up): 23-12*8 tool changes = 88 or 1min 28sec lost for tool changes on a run of 100 parts that is 2.4 hours lost productivity to the ATC @ shop rate that is real money.

8 tool changes in 16 minutes. Doing it manually means you must be on standby for the whole duration of the 100 parts, that's 100 x 16 minutes or three 8 hour days changing tools). So is 24 hours of your time worth 2.4 hours of your machine time. 2.4 hours machine time equals 9 additional parts. Assuming you hourly value is $20 that $720 for the 24 hours standing by changing tools. Is there more than $80 profit in each part.

Phil

[LRF]

I can't follow your logic or your math...100 parts takes "X" time to machine with ATC and I make "Y" money. Stopping using the ATC; now 100 parts takes "X" time minus 2.4 hours and I get paid the same amount. I pocket the extra money.

Having said that this thread is not about that, Its about if Tormach could improve the cycle time and reliability of their ATC.

[treyjugson]

I

Having said that this thread is not about that, Its about if Tormach could improve the cycle time and reliability of their ATC.

well that would be a question for tormach, did you call and ask? might be something they've been working on.

[popspipes]

Thanks for the insight.
I bought the atc so I could multi task while running parts so I don't mind if it a little slower than manually changing. Reliability in the other hand is very important to me.
The one thing I have not figured out yet us how to position/fix the coolant nosels so it effective with all the tools I will be using. Right now I have to manually adjust it for every tool.
Anyone have any suggestions on this?
I would ultimately like to be confident in a setup and have my machine running parts through the night while I am sleeping.

Thanks
Nathan

I really dont trust mine to run with no operator, every so often I get to trusting Mach/windows, then it lets me down and does something definitely not in the program!! I read about it on other forums, but its not for me.......

edit: I do all my machining in the vise, in my opinion there is more time to shut it down if it should decide to bore into the table............