[smokediver576]

Ok Tormach Geniuses out there. Getting ready to order my Tormach Series III ----- Yeah Me.......Sorry bank account.,......

I used to have a Fadal VMC15, however, never was a true machinist on it. We got talked into purchasing it vs a smaller machine and it was always an intimidating beast in the corner. At that time I purchased a full seat of CAMWorks 2.5, 3 and 4th axis. I let my subscription run out which means I have no support help on setting up the post processor for the CAM side (also having issues with Java updates screwing up the program). However, this program is also a part of SolidWorks or as CAMWorks calls it. "CAMWorks Solids". Basically the same program as SolidWorks it's just all wrapped into one. CAMWorks I feel is waaaay more program than I need to run a hobby CNC in my garage. I called CAMWorks recently and it's going to cost me $2,500.00 to re-instate the maintenance on my key.

So, my question to the folks out there, is if you were in my shoes would you:

(1) Update the CAMWorks key ($2,500.00 - for maintenance per year) and call it a day

(2) Keep the CAMWorks key as it is right now (no maintenance), run the solids in CAMWorks and purchase Sprutcam ($1,250.00 - not sure how much maintenance is per year) at the same time I buy my machine?

If I go with option (2) my plan would be to eventually purchase a freestanding license from SolidWorks. Not sure what that runs now a days.

What do ya think?

Yes, I know that this should go in the software section. However, I am really looking at how it relates to use on the Tormach.

Thanks

[SCzEngrgGroup]

Do you need full 3D CAM, or is 2.5D good enough? If 2.5D, look into Autodesk Inventor LT CAD (under $1K) and HSMXpress CAM (free!). A Soldiworks seat will cost you a bit over $4K. Inventor LT gives you all the most important aspects of Solidworks (except assemblies), and has a much better, more modern, UI. HSMXpress is absolutely wonderful for 2.5D work, and used properly can also greatly improve your throughput due to its HSM capabilities. The value of "integrated" CAD/CAM (as opposed to two separate, stand-alone apps) should not be under-estimated - it is a HUGE time-saver. HSMXpress/HSMWorks also works with Solidworks if you go that way. If you need full 3D, HSMWorks, which is the full 3D version of HSMXpress, can be leased for a little over $200/month. All are available for 30-day free trial, and you really should try before you buy, as CAD and CAM tend to be rather "personal" choices - the app one person loves, another person may hate.

Regards,
Ray L.

[MichaelHenry]

If you need continuous voice/email support, Tormach charges an annual fee for that but minor updates to a major version have been free for the download so far. I just upgraded from SC 8 to SC 9 and the cost was quite reasonable to my mind so upgrade fees are very reasonable - hundreds, not thousands. Try the SprutCAM demo before you buy though - it can be difficult to work your way through some of the idiosyncracies, especially if you machine to Imperial dimensions.

Mike

[IMT]

I have been using SprutCAM since 2010 and have before proficient at it. Sprut is very capable and can do just about anything, but it is far from perfect. There are bugs and querks that drive me nuts. About a year ago I got fed up enough that I started demoing other CAM software. I liked CAMWorks and SolidCAM, but I couldn't justify the price of either (CAMworks was $7500 for 3 axis and SolidCAM was $4000 for 3-axis). So I went back to Sprut and just accepted that it will take me twice as long to program a part as it should because I have to find a way around the querks.

If I was in your situation I would pay the $2500 to have current 4-axis CAMworks.

[smokediver576]

Yeah, the more I look at it and the fact that I already know (mostly.......) how to use CamWorks, not to mention that I've got $12,000 tied up in the original software, maybe paying the $2,500 for this year would be the best bet. At least that way I'd be back up to date on the most current version, have them their to help troubleshoot CamWorks to Mach 3 issues and decide next year if I would renew.

[mmoe]

The Solidworks part of the equation is what's going to really be expensive. Otherwise, most CAM systems will work with a Tormach just fine and it's more about what features you want in the software in terms of toolpath strategies and how the software works from a using it perspective.

You're always going to get us all telling you to get what we have, since everyone feels they have the inside track on something cool. With that in mind, I personally prefer Bobcad which has really come a long ways in the last few years. We just had a bit of a discussion about some of these options and how they fit into Solidworks here:

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/genera...ath-match.html

I would suggest that you at least contact them and get a quote as it will probably be very competitive while providing more toolpath options for the money. My opinion is that Bobcad's 3 Axis Mill Pro is the sweet spot for value in their product line, and you'd eventually want the more advanced "Pro" toolpaths once you get the hang of the software. You could set up a machine definition for the Tormach pretty easily for simulation if you can get the STL files from Tormach. It's possible that someone has already created a Tormach machine definition for Bobcad, in which case they could share the machine definition folder and you could add it to Bobcad on your computer in seconds. Bobcad, Sprutcam and Camworks are based on the same Module Works simulation, so the machine definition process should be very similar between them (other than how entering the definition parameters looks on your screen).

Also, if you really want to model in Solidworks, I think you can get the basic OEM Solidworks package from Bobcad for around $2500 (not including the Bobcad plugin), which is likely about as cheap as it's going to get for Solidworks. I think that version is stripped down to just the modeling and CAD portions for use with CAM software, so while you can model and create parts and assemblies, I think you can't generate drawing sheets or calculate stress loads, etc. If all you need Solidworks for is modeling and machining, it's probably all you really need anyways. Bobcad has both a stand alone version and a Solidworks plugin version, so you can go either way. If you start with the standalone Bobcad, you can learn it easier since there is more forum help that way, then when you do finally get Solidworks, you can get the plugin and it will work in much the same way, so the transition would be pretty easy. There are quite a few other alternatives for modeling parts than Solidworks, so if you are just doing this at home, you may be just as well off with something less expensive.

There are a lot of good CAM packages out there these days, but I think Bobcad is the best "bang for the buck" product out there. The Bobcad forum here on CNCZone is one of the most active, so help is always easy to get here.

[Philbobb]

If you only need 2.5D Fusion 360 is worth a try. They have a 30 day free trial, if you keep it it's $25 s month, or $100 a month for the pro package which gives you 3D. It uses HSM Express/Works for the CAM side, which I like.

[smokediver576]

If you only need 2.5D Fusion 360 is worth a try. They have a 30 day free trial, if you keep it it's $25 s month, or $100 a month for the pro package which gives you 3D. It uses HSM Express/Works for the CAM side, which I like.

Wow! Thanks for the suggestion Philbobb. They actually are running a special if you buy before 12/13 - you get Fusion 360 pro for the price of the standard version. At $300 per year I may just order it and have it as a plan B. According to the site, if you maintain your license annually you keep the same pricing. Especially considering that I use AutoCAD Lt just about every day!

This is what I love about this place! So many great ideas and inputs.

Thanks

[smokediver576]

Ummmmm.... Downloaded Fusion360 Trial. Launch - try to draw - crash, Launch - try to draw - crash, Launch - try to draw - crash...... again, again, again. Tried multiple times and never could get it to work. Very strange...... I think I'll be holding of unless they can point me in a direction of "why" it keeps crashing.

[popspipes]

I use Rhino 4 for cad, about 800 dollars, no maintenance fees.

I use Sprutcam 7 about a thousand dollars in 2012, no maintenance fees.

I just use my machine for hobby use, so I cant justify the cost of some of the high end software. I also dont mind paying once to buy software but I am not a fan of the subscription services some of them now offer.
Sprut cam is a bit of a bear at times but it does a lot for the price. Rhino is relatively easy to learn and its 3d.

Everyone has an opinion, this is just mine........

[Philbobb]

Ummmmm.... Downloaded Fusion360 Trial. Launch - try to draw - crash, Launch - try to draw - crash, Launch - try to draw - crash...... again, again, again. Tried multiple times and never could get it to work. Very strange...... I think I'll be holding of unless they can point me in a direction of "why" it keeps crashing.

I haven't tried it yet, haven't had the time. Maybe that's why they extended the offer for the free upgrade to pro another month. I did use the Fusion 360 beta, I did have the occasional hiccup, but over all it worked well. It better get better, I already dropped my $300 for an annual. I figured it was worth a shot. The CAM was nearly the same as the HSM Express I tried with a student version of Solidworks, plus it had 3D. Was really pleased with HSM, but have no experience outside of it.


I would rather own software than do the subscription, but as much as I've been using the mill, I can't justify the outlay for some of the other options.

[smokediver576]

Update:

Just got off the phone with AutoDesk customer support. Nathan was outstanding! He walked me through some settings that allowed my older computer to run the software. I cannot say enough about how fast and responsive they were. I will be purchasing the $300 special. For that price you cannot go wrong even if it is an annual subscription. The thing I've run into (with CAMWorks) is that it's not the actual CAD software that's the issue most of the times. It's an update to say your Java scripting the makes the CAD program not function correctly. My CAMWorks worked great with the 2012 version and I saw no need to change, however with Win 7 updates and Java updates it will not allow the program to run anymore without a patch from CAMWorks..... which, by the way....... you cannot get unless you're under a maintenance contract. So, for $300 a year, I'm good with that. Beats the hell out of $2,500 for CW.

[proengines]

I bought a subscription for Fusion 360 last week, AU$340 and it's looking quite decent so far. It updated itself a couple of days ago and is working well, no crashes or similar to this point. I really got it for the CAM but the modelling software seems to be pretty good. I was trained in Solid Edge and it's a pretty simple learning curve using the tutorials. The CAM interface seems very impressive once I got my head around it, they have some very good youtube videos running through the process. The Mach post processor also seems to produce pretty honest looking code, I haven't run it on the machine yet but it's looking like a fair product for the price. I can't justify the cost of some of the industry standard software given I make parts when I feel like it and have another full time job but this pricing model is very do-able.

[BAMCNC.COM]

I did 2 youtube videos on the Fusion360 deal. I've been upgraded to Ultimate for free already.

[greggv]

Actually, if you get Fusion now, at 300.00 per year, you're good for the upgrade at no cost. And it's a full 3d package. As long as you keep your subscription current, you're good. It's a hell of a deal!

[Hirudin]

I have SolidCAM but it has been buggy so I decided to see what else was out there. HSMWorks seems like the best SolidWorks-integrated CAM I tried. It's fast and consistent. Most of the parameters have tooltips that are actually useful, which is nice to have. They also offer a full-featured trial, including post procesding, so you can actually give the software an honest try before buying.

DelCAM For SolidWorks sounded very cool on paper but was a complete failure on the part I was using as a test. Their demo version is the full program, but you cannot post code. (They were also recently bought by Autodesk.)

CAMWorks also sounded good until I actually tried it out. I did a one to two-hour GoToMeeting session with one of their techs to try to make some toolpaths for my test part. It did not go well, we didn't even finish creating the roughing ops before I gave up on it.

I didn't try Mastercam For SolidWorks, BobCAM For SolidWorks, or whatever MeshCAM's SolidWorks package is called.

[BAMCNC.COM]

I LOVE HSMWorks, I just got the Fusion because it's too good of a deal to pass up, and I can easily have my NEW employee work on something at his house once I train him!

[smokediver576]

Does anyone have a recommendation on good books/websites/dvd training on HSMWorks/CAM programming. Things like understanding all the ramp, entry/exit and so forth settings. Something for the non-trained just starting hobby machinist. I look at all the settings and my head wants to explode because I only truly understand about 25% of the settings.

Really like the AutoDesk Fusion360. By far an unreal deal on Fusion360 Ultimate until 12/13 ($300 per year for life)

[AVRnj]

Does anyone have a recommendation on good books/websites/dvd training on HSMWorks/CAM programming. Things like understanding all the ramp, entry/exit and so forth settings. Something for the non-trained just starting hobby machinist. I look at all the settings and my head wants to explode because I only truly understand about 25% of the settings.

Really like the AutoDesk Fusion360. By far an unreal deal on Fusion360 Ultimate until 12/13 ($300 per year for life)

Andrew, have you seen the HSM youtube videos? That is what I used to get started with HSMexpress. They are pretty good for getting started. If you have not seen them, I can find them and post a link for you.

[AVRnj]

I LOVE HSMWorks, I just got the Fusion because it's too good of a deal to pass up, and I can easily have my NEW employee work on something at his house once I train him!

I use HSMexpress, and like that a lot too, but I agree, this deal may be too good to pass up. The fact that you can do assemblies, 3D CAM for that price is incredible.