kflop/kanalog tacho signal

Hi

I'm trying to setup my kflog+kanalog to run my old fanuc drivers. Old fanuc sys is 6m-b.
I have the diff encoder attached to kanalog and it is working.
Vcmd on the driver connected to dac. When i enable the drive noq it just runs away like crasy. After some reading up on the drive it seems that the drive needs a tacho signal back.
On 6m the fanuc motherboard has a f/v converter that uses the diff encoder signal to produce a tach the is wired back to the drive, tsa tsb.
My question is, is there a way to create this tach signal using kflop+kanalog? I think it is 3v 1000rpm.

/Lars
Sweden

Hi Lars,

I suppose something like that might be possible, but would be complicated and there may be some delay.

Did you do any research on the drives? You didn't include any links. Is it possible to disable the Tachometer and operate the drive in torque mode?

If you command different DAC values on the KMotion Console Screen can you control torque?

Regards

Hi

No, I cannot find any way to operate the drive in torque mode. I have decided to take out the old drives and use CNCdrive´s DG4S-16035 servo drivers instead. What I am wondering now is if I should close the loop with the Kflop/Kanalog controller or if it is best to run the Diff encoder back to the drive. The drive will take Step/dir. Where do I attach the Step/Dir cables on the Kflop/Kanalog controller? I may have to drive the spindle with +/- 10V so I will keep the kanalog attached. I will attach a schematic of the connections, please let me know if you see any wrong in it.

The parts unclear before getting everything together is as follows:

How big capacitor may I need between + and - after the rectifier, the manual, from CNCdrive, states 2000uF per amp over 80V.
The Fanuc motor rates 108V and 12 A, 24000uF cannot be right?!?!??!?

I have two AC transformers, one for X and Y axis, and one for Z and A axis. Is it possible to only have one 3-fase rectifier for X&Y and one for Z&A?
The outputs on the first tranformer are UX, VX, WX, and UY, VY, WY. Can I attach these parallel? Put UX+UZ, VX+VY, and WX+WY together.
I will attach a pic on the transformers.

I hope you all have some input on this!

regards
Lars

Attachment 249018, Attachment 249020

I would close the loop in k-flop but it is not something you have to do.

Ben

Hi Lars,

We prefer you close the position loops with KFLOP+Kanalog that way KFLOP has control and is aware of the feedback loops, but it is up to you. It might depend on whether you prefer tuning in the drive or in the KFLOP Software.

I thin you should follow any recommendations of your drive manufacturer. But with 3 phase power you can possibly get away with a lot less capacitance. 3 phase power always has voltage available from one of the phases. With single phase power the voltage drops to zero 120 times per second and the capacitors must supply all the power during that time. Drawing 12A from a 24000uf capacitor for 1/120th of a second will cause the capacitor voltage to drop by:

12A x 1/120sec / 24000uf = 4.2V

It probably isn't a good idea to put the phases in parallel. If the voltages are not the same there might be large currents.

HTH
Regards

Hi

Thank you for your answers! Yes, closing the loop with kflop is what i was aming for when buying the control. Seems better than having 4 seperate drives closing the loop.

I will send the guys at CNCdrive a mail and ask them about the capacitor.
If not paralel wiring I will setup one contactor and one rectifier for each axis.

How about fuses? Between the rectifier and the drive. Howto size them and what kind?

Many thanks again!

/Lars

Hi Lars,

I can't provide much help except the obvious:

I don't think the fuses will hurt anything as long as they are rated above your expected normal peak current.

With something like a screwdriver short currents rise to Drive damaging levels in microseconds, but fuses blow in milliseconds so they may not protect the drives.

If the drives have a large capacitor the turn on currents may be high enough to blow your fuse.

Maybe someone else can offer further advice.

HTH
Regards

Ok, just sent the people at cnxdrive an email with the capacitor question.

Bought four of there 16035 servo drivers and bracking circuits today. I will be interesting to find out there performance.

Hi Lars,

Those don't seem to be analog drives so they would not work with KFLOP+Kanalog closing the loop. So I'm guessing you decided to go the Step/Dir route?

Regards

Hi

Yes, with step/dir. Isn't possible to connect that to the kflop? Can i have kanalog still connected to drive my old spindle driver? I think I read that in some manual of yours.

Can I close the loop with step/dir i kflop? Or do i have to connect the diff encoder to the drive and close the loop there?

Thank you for the fast reply!!

/Lars

Hi Lars,

You didn't include a spec or a link but I Googled and found this:

http://www.cncdrive.com/downloads/DG...ies_manual.pdf

Those drives require Step/Dir signals that source current at a minimum of 3V. KFLOP's LVTTL outputs are only guaranteed to be 2.8V under all worst case conditions. Typically they would be higher. But this would be technically out of specification. Adding a pull up resistor to +5V would increase the output voltage to bring it into specification.

Yes you can still have Kanalog Connected. See:
Dynomotion Motion Control Boards for CNC Manufacturing and Robotics Applications

I don't think it makes sense to close the loop both in the drive and in KFLOP when using a single encoder. One or the other should be sufficient. With something like linear scales on your axis it would make sense to have dual loops to improve accuracy. You must connect the encoder to the drive for that type of drive to work. You can also connect the encoder back to Kanalog/KFLOP so it can monitor the actual position but that makes the cabling, shielding, and grounding somewhat messy.

HTH
Regards

I'm progressing with setting up the drives and kflop/kanalog+konnect board.

Question, is the only way to gey 4 axis step/dir out of this configuration to remove jp5 from kanalog and connect 4 x step/dir on jp5?

Does open collector work with this drive. It has 5v opto, but step and dir use the same gnd. Any way to connect to that?

The pinout of the Main connector is listed below:
1. Step signal input
2. Direction signal input
3. Ground for Step and Direction signals
4. 5V power input
5. Reset
6. Error
7. input DC power + 12V DC
8. DC power – ground for the 12V

Link to drive:
CNCdrive - motion controls

Or is it easier to connect it as lvttl and use pullup resistor, 330 ohm, the raise V to perhaps 3,5V.

If i dissconnect jp5 on kanalog i will loose diffinputs right? Do not think i need those for driving the spindle drive with either 0-10 V or 12 bit binary code.

/Lars

Hi Lars,

I believe those drives specify that sourcing 3V at 10ma is required. As you describe using KFLOP JP5 is probably the simplest/best approach if you don't need all the Kanalog differential inputs. Open Collector mode only sinks current so they wouldn't work without some current sourcing arrangement (pullup). I think it would be better to use the LVTTL mode. LVTTL mode should provide faster rise times by actively driving the pin high rather than only having a pullup resistor pull the voltage high. The KFLOP LVTTL outputs guarantee at least 2.8V sourcing 16ma so they are likely to source 3V at 10ma and are likely to work directly. But you should check the voltage and if they are not at least 3V then add a pull up resistor connected to +5V as you describe. Avoid pulling the signals above 3.8V.

HTH
Regards

Ok! Thank you for the fast reply! Good service!!

Hi Tom

I have tried to get one axis moving today, X axis. I have connected as follows:

Step for x-axis to pin 1 JP5
Dir for x-axis to pin 2 JP5

Common Step/Dir GND to a GND point on Kflop/Kanalog.

What confuses me is that the drive have a common step/dir GND. Any GND on Kflop/Kanalog good?

Is this correct?

Will eventually have all 4 axis connected to JP5.

This is the code i have Compiled/Uploaded and Run in Kmotion. Does it look ok?
I have not changed anything exept set it to step/dir with no Input and picked output channel 12.
LVttl on Pin 1 & 2 on JP5, right?

Code:

---

        ch0->InputMode=NO_INPUT_MODE;
        ch0->OutputMode=STEP_DIR_MODE;
        ch0->Vel=40000;
        ch0->Accel=400000;
        ch0->Jerk=4e+006;
        ch0->P=0;
        ch0->I=0.01;
        ch0->D=0;
        ch0->FFAccel=0;
        ch0->FFVel=0;
        ch0->MaxI=200;
        ch0->MaxErr=1e+006;
        ch0->MaxOutput=200;
        ch0->DeadBandGain=1;
        ch0->DeadBandRange=0;
        ch0->InputChan0=0;
        ch0->InputChan1=0;
        ch0->OutputChan0=12;
        ch0->OutputChan1=0;
        ch0->MasterAxis=-1;
        ch0->LimitSwitchOptions=0x110;
        ch0->LimitSwitchNegBit=0;
        ch0->LimitSwitchPosBit=0;
        ch0->SoftLimitPos=1e+009;
        ch0->SoftLimitNeg=-1e+009;
        ch0->InputGain0=1;
        ch0->InputGain1=1;
        ch0->InputOffset0=0;
        ch0->InputOffset1=0;
        ch0->OutputGain=1;
        ch0->OutputOffset=0;
        ch0->SlaveGain=1;
        ch0->BacklashMode=BACKLASH_OFF;
        ch0->BacklashAmount=0;
        ch0->BacklashRate=0;
        ch0->invDistPerCycle=1;
        ch0->Lead=0;
        ch0->MaxFollowingError=1000000000;
        ch0->StepperAmplitude=20;

        ch0->iir[0].B0=1;
        ch0->iir[0].B1=0;
        ch0->iir[0].B2=0;
        ch0->iir[0].A1=0;
        ch0->iir[0].A2=0;

        ch0->iir[1].B0=1;
        ch0->iir[1].B1=0;
        ch0->iir[1].B2=0;
        ch0->iir[1].A1=0;
        ch0->iir[1].A2=0;

        ch0->iir[2].B0=0.000768788;
        ch0->iir[2].B1=0.00153758;
        ch0->iir[2].B2=0.000768788;
        ch0->iir[2].A1=1.92076;
        ch0->iir[2].A2=-0.923833;

        EnableAxisDest(0,0);

        DefineCoordSystem(0,-1,-1,-1);

        Return 0;

---

I got some small movement from the axis when i clicked move in the step/response tab.
What should PID values be in there, should that even matter since i did the PID tuning in the drive?

Will have to check that PID values are stored correctly in the drive, it acted like PID values was reset.

What would be the next step?

I have tuned the PID in the servoconf that comes with the drive. It has gone fairly ok.
I want to test the PID tuning by jogging or running some G-code.
Do i set Acceleration, velocity and Jerk in Kmotion or in Mach3?

By the way, I may want to buy another Konnect board to get some more I/O, is it possible to purcase a cable that can connect 2 boards from you? Do you just stack them ontop of eachother to get short cables?

/Lars

Hi Lars,

Quote:

---

What confuses me is that the drive have a common step/dir GND. Any GND on Kflop/Kanalog good? Is this correct?

---

Yes any DC GND (not earth GND) should be ok.

Quote:

---

This is the code i have Compiled/Uploaded and Run in Kmotion. Does it look ok?
I have not changed anything exept set it to step/dir with no Input and picked output channel 12.
LVttl on Pin 1 & 2 on JP5, right?

---

Yes that looks correct to me, but you have not shown a complete program.

Quote:

---

I got some small movement from the axis when i clicked move in the step/response tab.

---

Pushing the "Move" button downloads all the parameters from KMotion's Step/Config/Filters screens potentially overwriting anything that was set by running a C Program. Are you aware of this? Make sure all the screen settings match the settings in the C program. Or "Upload" the parameters set by the C Program to the screens before pushing the "Move" button.

What "size" move did you make?

Quote:

---

What should PID values be in there, should that even matter since i did the PID tuning in the drive?

---

The PID values in KFLOP do not matter. They are not being used. Your drive is closing any feedback loop.

Quote:

---

I want to test the PID tuning by jogging or running some G-code.
Do i set Acceleration, velocity and Jerk in Kmotion or in Mach3?

---

Please get everything working and tuned in KMotion.exe before attempting to run Mach3, or Gcode, or Jogging

Quote:

---

Do i set Acceleration, velocity and Jerk in Kmotion or in Mach3?

---

Both. First determine the values in KMotion.exe Step Response Screen in units of Steps and seconds.

Quote:

---

I may want to buy another Konnect board to get some more I/O, is it possible to purcase a cable that can connect 2 boards from you? Do you just stack them ontop of eachother to get short cables?

---

In cases like that we prefer you make your own cables so they properly match how you have the boards mounted. It is pretty easy to crimp connectors on 16 pin ribbon cable. Stacking Konnects would keep the cables short but would probably make it difficult to do the wiring. Try to keep the cable between KFLOP and the first Konnect as short as possible, but its ok for the cable to the second Konnect to be 1 foot long.

HTh
Regards

OK, I connected the step/dir GND to this GND point on the Kanalog board. The hole marked with an arrow in the attached pic. Is this wrong?
Attachment 257372

ohh, I forgot to paste the complete code with the starting part.

What can i write in the console to move the axis? Can i type in something like: Move(0) = 100

When I pressed the Move button i Step/Response screen I think it was 3 sec, 1000 size.

In the config program for the drive i take 10000 steps for 10 mm of travel, if I do remember correct.

Regarding the cable for the Konnect board nr 2. It works great when knowing I can have a longer cable between board nr 1 and nr 2.

Thank you for all the feedback!

/Lars

One more thing, what parts of the Step Response screen will affect my system?
Is it only the Motion profile part that i can make changes to, V,A and J?
The Step part, what to use? Move button or Step button? What is the difference?

/Lars

Hi Lars,

That GND Lug should work

Quote:

---

What can i write in the console to move the axis? Can i type in something like: Move(0) = 100

---

It would be Move0=100 for an absolute move. There is a "Help" button on the Console Screen that will bring you to a List of commands. See:
Script Commands
Script Commands

Quote:

---

When I pressed the Move button i Step/Response screen I think it was 3 sec, 1000 size.
In the config program for the drive i take 10000 steps for 10 mm of travel, if I do remember correct.

---

Then that axis should have moved 1mm

Quote:

---

One more thing, what parts of the Step Response screen will affect my system?
Is it only the Motion profile part that i can make changes to, V,A and J?

---

Yes

Quote:

---

The Step part, what to use? Move button or Step button? What is the difference?

---

Use the Move Button. The Step Button will make an instantaneous "Step" to the destination which doesn't make much sense for Step/Dir Pulse systems.

BTW you can get answers to most of these questions with 2 mouse clicks. Click on "Help" and then the Button or cell you have a question about.

Regards

Got the xaxis moving today, wooho!
Here is a link. Jogging x-axis - YouTube

Still got some tweaking to do though...

It moves!!!

(It would be nice if you add KFLOP/Kanalog/Dynomotion tags to your videos)

Regards

Yes, finally :-)

Ok, i will add tags on vidoes later when there is more to show.

Question about Konnect and opto outputs in general.
I have initalized the Konnect board and when i toggle check mark in the I/O tab in Kmotion the led's at the respective output.

Is it possible to use the output as a switch. To close a connection. I tested with a ohm meter for getting a closed connection between + & - poles on the output when active(led on).
But i don't get a connection between poles.

And the same with the DAC. If i set DAC0=-200 in console. It says close to 1v on the analog output screen. Bit when i mesure between DAC0 and GND there is no reading.

Am I missunderstanding this compleatly or is there aome setting that needs to be set first.

/Lars

Hi Lars,

The Konnect Outputs should operate much like a switch. They can switch up to 30V @ 0.25A. The output is basically a darlington transistor which will have a few tenths of a volt drop (not zero volts like a mechanical switch would have). So an Ohmmeter may not indicate zero ohms as it probably is only applying a small voltage to measure resistance.

DAC0=-200 should output +1V on the DAC 0 Pin relative to Kanalog GND. Not sure why you don't see it. Is the Kanalog LED on indicate it is enabled? Make sure no KFLOP Axis is enabled and writing to the DAC otherwise any command you send will be immediately over written.

Regards

Hi Tom

The outputs and DAC are working correclty, I had a bad voltmeter (multimeter).

Now to another question. This is more of issue programming.

I started up my old Fanuc spindle drive for Fanuc DC spindle model 3. I ran it with the DAC output successively. But the drive originally was driven by a 12 bit binary input. Input 12 different cables with +20 VDC och 0 VDC, to activate pre programmed speed in the drive. And to get automatic gearshift. I´m thinking of using another Konnect board for this.

Is there a way to set 12 different outputs simultaneously, state on or off, like with a stack. Speed[12] = 000011110000;

and then setbit clearbit for all of them at the same time.

I will make a build thread for this project soon to show my progress.

/Lars

Hi Lars,

The Konnect Bits are stored int Virtual Bits which exist as 32-bit integers in KFLOP Memory. If you wire the 12 bits up in the proper order to set a pattern like 000011110000 (which is hexadecimal 0x0F0 or decimal 240) you could do:

InitAux();
AddKonnect(0,&VirtualBits,VirtualBitsEx);

VirtualBits=240;



To set them all at the same time write 4095.

T clear them all at the same time write 0

HTH
Regards
TK

Excellent!

I will put an order for a second Konnect board.

Thank you!

The second Konnectboard is now connected and the old Fanuc Spindle drive and Spindle motor is now running with the Konnectboard. The Virtualbits thing works great! I can now use the preprogrammed speeds in the drive width having 12 bits connected throug 0-11 opto-out on the Konnect.

Doing a lot of wiring with ATC and the rest of the relays.

Question about the WatchDog or ChargePump. What is the sole purpose of this? is it to monitor a Estop circuit for "stop" or to have it close a "Estop chain"? Am to connect it to the SWE pin on the Kanalog? Can I connect a Estop run by 24VDC directly to that pin?

I have connected like this:

1: +24VDC terminal on machine

2: Key on pendant

3: Estop button on pendant

4: Relay 24Vdc coil width 3 connection "lines"

4,1: Line to start Spindle drive, internal Estop circiut.
4,2: Line to open power, 24Vdc, to optos on Konnect´s, drives relays for ATC and Gearshifts etc.
4,3: Line to power 4 sets of contactors for servodrivepower, there I have limitswitches in series. (Thinking of adding a pushbutton to negate limitswitches so I can backoff limitswitch with it pressed down)


What I need now is to have all this connected to a program that can monitor the state of all this. Have a lot of avalible inputs on Konnect boards. Any ideas?

One more thing, can i drive a relay of 24VDC 36,9 mA throuh Opto-outputs on the Kanalog board or is it better to use SW0-7 for that? If that is true, Can I just use the +24VDC anywhere from a seperate transformer and connect it like this?

+24VDC --> relay --> SW0-7 on Kanalog.

What is the bit nr for the SWE?

/Lars

PS. pics will come soon.

Hi Lars,

The SWE signal on Kanalog is guaranteed to remain off and only becomes active after KFLOP has fully booted, is successfully communicating with Kanalog, and has initialized all the Outputs on Kanalog to an off state. Other Kanalog outputs may power up on for several seconds until Kanalog is fully initialized. So it is usually necessary to use SWE to disable power to everything else until after Kanalog is initialized. There is no IO Bit number for SWE. The SWE output is a relay driver output just like the other 8 relay drivers and is capable of driving a load upto 24V @ 1Amp. If a coil is driven it should have a reverse diode across the coil.

The opto outputs are only rated for 25ma. So to drive a 36.9ma coil you would need to use the Relay Driver Outputs. As you described: +24VDC --> relay --> SW0-7 on Kanalog but also with a reverse diode across the coil.

HTH
Regards

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LarsSweden

Hi

- after the rectifier, the manual, from CNCdrive, states 2000uF per amp over 80V.
The Fanuc motor rates 108V and 12 A, 24000uF cannot be right?!?!??!?

---

A bit late to the party here, but I think CNCdrive were quoting the cap value for 1phase rectification which has 100% ripple before smoothing, 3ph rectification on the other hand has much less ripple ~30% or less before smoothing.
Therefore a much smaller cap is needed.
Al.

Ok, now I understand the SWE connection, thank you!

Started to mapp all the inputs this evening. Theres alot of them :)

I will attach a picture of a drawing, made in Paint, of how I think I should connect the inputs to Konnect boards. And the same to Kanalog Opto-inputs, only difference there is that there is no common line. I this right?

Attachment 260220

And here are some more pictures of my progress with the wiering. Only Outputs connected so far....

Servo drivers and transformers:
Attachment 260222

Dynomotion boards:
Attachment 260224

Fanuc spindle driver and relay connection panel:
Attachment 260226


Still lots of cables to hook up.

Installed the computer and touchscreen to the pendant today also.

Any Ideas on what to have on the pendant? Right now I have E-stop mushroom button, Key-switch, USB input, 17" touchscreen with glass front.
Maybe som indicator leds and perhaps the old jog wheel.

The old "jog wheel", cannot remember the correct name, has connections A, B, 0V and +5V pins. Possible to reuse it with Dynomotion setup? Or is it better to buy a lose pendant. Like this one: MPGs | Automation Technology Inc

/Lars

Hi Lars,

The input connections to Konnect look correct.

The Jog wheel should be useable. If it is only single ended (only has A B) then it will need to connect to a KFLOP encoder input rather than the Kanalog Differential inputs.

Regards,

Ok! Here is a pic from the connections of the Jog wheel. Only A and B so if I use it I will try to connect it to Kflop directly.

Got the switches working, the circuit drawing in the last post, to the Konnect board.

Tried to connect the 4 proximity switches in the same manner as the ordinary switches but did not get it to work. I have probably done some wiring error and I can´t really get my head around whats not working. First time connecting Proximity switches.

Its a Omron TL-XP5 with 3 wires. Black (-), Red (+) and White (-). It states DC 10-30V between Black and Red, and Load between Red and White.

This is how I have connected it:
Attachment 260482

Cannot find any datasheets for the proximity switch either...

Picture of Proximity Switch:
Attachment 260484

Picture of Jog Wheel:
Attachment 260486


Anyone here who has connected something like this? Don´t really want to tinker with it to much and end up burning up the Konnect Board.

/Lars

Hi Lars,

I think if you change the Konnect Common to +24V (the sensor sinks to GND when it drives) it should work.

Regards

It works.

A clip with the atc doing a cycle: Atc test OKK mcv-300 - YouTube

Over to another issue. Is it possible to have ex VirtualBits = 4095 only affecting the first 12 bits? 0-11 output on the Konnect board.
When doing the above cmd it zeros the rest of the bits that I have connected to some other equipment.

Maybe something like this:

VirtualBits[0,,11] = 4095

Another thing. Any thougts on howto store what is were in the ATC magazine? Tools switches place and there are no sensor or indicator on where the magazine is at. Someone done anything like this?

Thanks for all the help!

Hi Lars,

Very cool and thanks for tagging us in the video.

To effect only the bottom 12 bits try something like:

VirtualBits = (VirtualBits & ~0xFFF) | 4095;

This "ANDs" out the bottom 12 bits (keeping the rest) then "ORs" in the new lower 12 bits.

This should be performed within microseconds after a WaitNextTimeSlice() to guarantee that the sequence is not interrupted. Otherwise there is a chance that some other changes can get lost. The hazard only can occur if something other than this Thread modifies Virtual Bits (classic interrupted while read/modify/write problem).

No simple ideas on how to keep track of the tools.
Regards

ok, I think I understand. So for example,

*********************************

float speed = *(float *)&persist.UserData[0]; //Get speed from S function in KmotionCNC

int speedtocontrol = (int)speed * 1.17; //Need to multiply with a factor of 2.17 for highgear to get the right speed on spindle

WaitNextTimeSlice();

VirtualBits = (VirtualBits & ~0xFFF) | speedtocontrol;

*******************************

S function is the only program that will run VirtualBits, well I set it in the init file to 0 on startup.

On the Tool issue, the T command/function in KmotionCNC. how does it work? There is no program start for this right, like the S. How to call tool from KmotionCNC?

On the previous setup with Fanuc I could write, for ex T3, awhile before the M6 cmd to have the magazine rotate it so it has the next tool, in this case T3, on the right place in the mag for toolchange.

I will read throu the C program examples and see if i can find anything there.

/Lars

Hi Lars,

Regarding this line:

int speedtocontrol = (int)speed * 1.17; //Need to multiply with a factor of 2.17 for highgear to get the right speed on spindle

I believe it would be better to convert to integer after the floating point multiplication with:

int speedtocontrol = (int)(speed * 1.17); //Need to multiply with a factor of 2.17 for highgear to get the right speed on spindle

Regarding the T Command: No, nothing is executed until the M6. You might make another M code (with a parameter) such as M100Pxxx to rotate the magazine ahead of time.

Regards