Another Mill - Haas, Another Tormach, or a Novakon?

Hey Everyone!

I've had my Tormach 1100 with all the bells and whistles for 18 months now. It has almost exactly 10,000 operating hours on it. It has paid for itself more times than I can count. However I'm seeing alot more demand, and need another mill. Originally I thought to go with a Haas Super Mini Mill - but that means I would need to sell the Tormach, and be broke.

Here are some thoughts...

• 2 Mills, no matter how slow, will out perform a Haas any day of the week in Titanium (Low SFM) which is all I machine
• Novakon may have some bugs, but in all honesty - the Tormach may have more with their ATC version of Mach 3, and don't provide support to move to LinuxCNC
• Novakon won't have an ATC, but that is fine, if I need an ATC I'll use the Tormach - Ray great work on the ATC and PDB
• Novakon is FASTER in every way than a Tormach, while being 4x cheaper than a Haas Super Mini Mill that speed will help production. Bluehandsvideo was hitting 700ipm on his Torus Pro vs my "110 ipm" - Maybe I'll buy 2 Novakon's :) Think they will give me a deal?
• Novakon will have Servos - while I don't think are "fully" Closed loop, atleast it will give warning when it's losing position. (This is big for me)
• Tormach has lost me as a customer - After Greg from Tormach stole my manufacturer for the product I was selling on my YouTube videos (LED Ring Light that works with Tormach ATC) there has been no relationship between Tormach and I - they have cut off all communication from me and I doubt would even provide warranty support for my Tormach anymore - That's what I get for standing up for myself. No matter what you read, Tormach is not the company you think they are.
• Tormach needs it's gibs tightened about every 2 months now, and reading their book they only have data up to 5,000 operating hours, well... I'm double that - so to be expected?
• Tormach has an Automatic Tool Setter, I don't think Novakon does - if I'm wrong please let me know (This is a big issue for me, will need to find a way around it, perhaps using the Tormach tool setter)
• Tormach has an overall better fit and finish I think, but this isn't a shelf queen, it will be put to work.

Now some Questions:

• I use soft jaws only, so will have 2 vices (could be 3 depends on model) so table space only needs to be whatever the vices are. Right now from the outside of my jaws is 15", but I can get it down to 14" if I mount the vices differently. These are Tormach 5" vises with 7" Monster Jaws.
• RPM isn't that big of an issue, you can only go so fast in Titanium, so am looking at the Pulsar, but Servo edition is back ordered, and I really need this mill now. Can anyone compare the 2 Novakon's in real life and explain which may be better for my soft jaw titanium diet? I'm about a year behind here on the zone, so pardon my ignorance of some things. Just been busy.
• How long will shipping take to get to my house? The only 2 stories I've followed have been a month or more, I need it next week (not literally)
• How is the customer service of Novakon? - as you know Tormach for someone who isn't me is AWESOME - as it was when they talked to me.
• How easy is it to customize a Novakon through software? Do I need a smooth stepper with Servos, and do they provide support? Tormach won't do this, and is another major reason for finding something else - Of course we all know Haas is about the worst there is as far as "proprietary, we will charge you $2,000 to type in an 8digit code for you sort of thing.

Now to be clear, I'm not bashing anyone, or anything like that - I'm just being real.

I have a YouTube channel, am up to about 900 subscribers now and will be taking video of everything that happens from this post, even if I don't get a Novakon.

So - Final Question:

What would YOU do, I'd like to hear from an unbiased person, along with people who have a Novakon and Tormach (if they look here) and what do you agree/not agree with?

Thanks for your time everyone, I'll try and find some time today to look around the Novakon Sub-Forum.

Brad

Wow! I guess I didn't realize just how serious you were about getting another mill! lol

Just to clarify a bit.......Once I started measuring for lost steps, 700ipm was losing a few. I set it down to 650ipm(hardly noticeable difference) and I could rapid back and forth about 8-10" about 10x's and not lose any. Vid coming......sometime! lol
Mike

Thanks Mike! I would probably run it at 500ipm to be safe, I'd rather have my acceleration cranked up as fast as I can. I'm probably behind on a few of your vids as it is, can't keep up with 5 a day :P

I'm being tracked by 8 different services on this site... I suggest everyone use "Do Not Track Me" me plugin for Firefox (or similar to other browsers)

See comments below....

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Originally Posted by BAMCNC.COM

Hey Everyone!

I've had my Tormach 1100 with all the bells and whistles for 18 months now. It has almost exactly 10,000 operating hours on it. It has paid for itself more times than I can count. However I'm seeing alot more demand, and need another mill. Originally I thought to go with a Haas Super Mini Mill - but that means I would need to sell the Tormach, and be broke.

Here are some thoughts...
[*]2 Mills, no matter how slow, will out perform a Haas any day of the week in Titanium (Low SFM) which is all I machine[*]Novakon may have some bugs, but in all honesty - the Tormach may have more with their ATC version of Mach 3, and don't provide support to move to LinuxCNC[*]Novakon won't have an ATC, but that is fine, if I need an ATC I'll use the Tormach - Ray great work on the ATC and PDB[*]Novakon is FASTER in every way than a Tormach, while being 4x cheaper than a Haas Super Mini Mill that speed will help production. Bluehandsvideo was hitting 700ipm on his Torus Pro - Maybe I'll buy 2 Novakon's :) Think they will give me a deal?[*]Novakon will have Servos - while I don't think are "fully" Closed loop, atleast it it will give warning when it's losing position. (This is big for me)
[*]Tormach has lost me as a customer - After Greg from Tormach stole my manufacturer for the product I was selling on my YouTube videos (LED Ring Light that works with Tormach ATC) there has been no relationship between Tormach and I - they have cut off all communication from me and I doubt would even provide warranty support for my Tormach anymore - That's what I get for standing up for myself. No matter what you read, Tormach is no the company you think they are.

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You're far from the only one to have that kind experience with them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BAMCNC.COM

[*]Tormach needs it's gibs tightened about every 2 months now, and reading their book they only have data up to 5,000 operating hours, well... I'm double that - so to be expected?

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I would not expect that, especially with the Turcite ways....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BAMCNC.COM

[*]Tormach has an Automatic Tool Setter, I don't think Novakon does - if I'm wrong please let me know (This is a big issue for me, will need to find a way around it)

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There are several after-market screensets, like MachStdMill, that provide the same functionality, if not better. Ask on the ArtSoft forum, and you'll get several recommendations from other users.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BAMCNC.COM

[*]Tormach has an overall better fit and finish I think, but this isn't a shelf queen, it will be put to work.

Now some Questions:

[*]I use soft jaws only, so will have 2 vices (could be 3 depends on model) so table space only needs to be whatever the vices are. Right now from the outside of my jaws is 15", but I can get it down to 14" if I mount the vices differently. These are Tormach 5" vises with 7" Monster Jaws.[*]RPM isn't that big of an issue, you can only go so fast in Titanium, so am looking at the Pulsar, but Servo edition is back ordered, and I really need this mill now. Can anyone compare the 2 Novakon's in real life and explain which may be better for my soft jaw titanium diet? I'm about a year behind here on the zone, so pardon my ignorance of some things. Just been busy.

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I have both a Torus Pro and a Pulsar, and they have very similar capabilities. The major differences are:

Torus Pro has a considerably larger work envelope (25"X, 15"Y, 12" Z (with 17" max Z height).
Pulsar has servo spindle, and does rigid tapping
Torus Pro has 6K RPM max speed, Pulsar is 4500 RPM max speed
Pulsar is, overall, MUCH smaller

Spindle power, maximum cut capability, rapid speed, etc., are all roughly the same for both machines.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BAMCNC.COM

[*]How long will shipping take to get to my house? The only 2 stories I've followed have been a month or more, I need it next week (not literally)

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Shipping time, from loading onto the truck in Toronto, to delivery to your door, is typically about a week to the US. Mine both arrived in under a week. The wild card is whether the machine you want is sitting in Toronto ready to ship out.

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Originally Posted by BAMCNC.COM

[*]How is the customer service of Novakon? - as you know Tormach for someone who isn't me is AWESOME - as it was when they talked to me.

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I've gotten good support from the start. No complaints here. They can't provide the level of "hand-holding" Tormach can, but you've got enough experienve you shouldn't need that. You also have lots of people here who will helpl out if you run into trouble.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BAMCNC.COM

[*]How easy is it to customize a Novakon through software? Do I need a smooth stepper with Servos, and do they provide support? Tormach won't do this, and is another major reason for finding something else - Of course we all know Haas is about the worst there is as far as "proprietary, we will charge you $2,000 to type in an 8digit code for you sort of thing)

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There is nothing "closed" about the Novakon, unlike the Tormach. You have full access to modify the hardware and software in any way you see fit. It runs standard, off-the-shelf Mach3.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BAMCNC.COM

Now to be clear, I'm not bashing anyone, or anything like that - I'm just being real.

I have a YouTube channel, am up to about 900 subscribers now and will be taking video of everything that happens from this post, even if I don't get a Novakon.

So - Final Question:

What would YOU do, I'd like to hear from an unbiased person, along with people who have a Novakon and Tormach (if they look here) and what do you agree/not agree with?

Thanks for your time everyone, I'll try and find some time today to look around the Novakon Sub-Forum.

Brad

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I'm more than pleased with my purchase, and would do it again in a heartbeat. In terms of work envelope and capability, I believe the Novakons are the best machines out there for the money. They are not as cosmetically "finished" as the Tormachs, but in terms of actual functionality, they are great. I am certain I can get my work done far faster on my Novakons that I could on a Tormach. And, if you get my PDB, I guarantee you'll NEVER have pull-out! :-)

Regards,
Ray L.

There is the man I wanted to see! Thanks Ray! Have a good contact for me at Novakon?

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Originally Posted by BAMCNC.COM

There is the man I wanted to see! Thanks Ray! Have a good contact for me at Novakon?

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Just e-mail [email protected], and either John or Khai should get back to you shortly. That's where I started when I bought my first machine.

Regards,
Ray L.

Brad......that 650 was at 300 inch per second acceleration which put the G's on the X and Y axis' at .77+! :) I may need to scale that back just a bit, it will still be very fast.

I think mine got here in about 5 days IIRC. South Alabama. Mine has been about 99.5% a pleasure to use. A few very minor hickups initially, but easy to overcome. Mine is a Torus model, which was recently replaced by the Pulsar in the Novakon product line. It does have the servo spindle and if you do any tapping at all, then I would suggest the Pulsar. I would buy another in a heart beat and most likely will in a couple years. :)
Good luck with whatever you chose though.

These get shipped by truck so the further you are from Toronto the longer the trip. Obviously US customs can be a wildcard. Novakon is co-located with an international shipper, so as soon as a machine is checked out and ready to ship it will be out the door to the truck terminal.

I've got one of the early model NM200s and have had it for over 4 years. Support has gotten much better since the early days. My machine is low-usage, but has never been out of service; had some BOB problems but none that were fatal. Recently got a new BOB and some controller cleanup and am back in action. John has spent a lot of time recently on documenting the machines' innards, something that will make self-support much easier.

I would buy a Torus again, esp. if it had a servo spindle for rigid tapping and the same envelope.

If you have that much work, than I would suggest putting together a business plan and seeing if you can swing a loan on a Haas mini mill. I don't believe you are really the user that Tormach and Novakon is aimed at. 10000 hours later, the Haas will still be going strong, but you might be shopping again for another home shop machine. And all linear rails on the Haas means you don't have to worry about bed wear, ever. And if you kill your linear rails (unlikely), they can be replaced instead of buying a new machine.

Of course, I am sure Ray will chime in here since he does production runs on his Novakon... :D

Brad

Now some Questions:

o I use soft jaws only, so will have 2 vices (could be 3 depends on model) so table space only needs to be whatever the vices are. Right now from the outside of my jaws is 15", but I can get it down to 14" if I mount the vices differently. These are Tormach 5" vises with 7" Monster Jaws.

Either the Pulsar {Table Slot Distance X: 23.6", Work envelope 15.75"} or the Torus Pro {Table Slot Distance X: 34". Work envelope 24", would appear to satisfy your vise requirements.

o RPM isn't that big of an issue, you can only go so fast in Titanium, so am looking at the Pulsar, but Servo edition is back ordered, and I really need this mill now. Can anyone compare the 2 Novakon's in real life and explain which may be better for my soft jaw titanium diet? I'm about a year behind here on the zone, so pardon my ignorance of some things. Just been busy.

As RPM is not important, the Pulsar has a servo motor with very precise speed control. If you are doing much in the way of tapping it's a hands down winner. The Pro Motor is faster {6000 RPM} and a little more powerful but if I read your requirements correctly that is not important for your type of work.

How long will shipping take to get to my house? The only 2 stories I've followed have been a month or more, I need it next week (not literally)

I'll leave that for Novakon to quote. I suspect it is highly dependant on the stock situation.

o How is the customer service of Novakon? - as you know Tormach for someone who isn't me is AWESOME - as it was when they talked to me.

Always received prompt and relevant responses. I have had a few issues that stumped me {90% my lack of experience} and they were solved by email or over the phone.

o How easy is it to customize a Novakon through software? Do I need a smooth stepper with Servos, and do they provide support? Tormach won't do this, and is another major reason for finding something else - Of course we all know Haas is about the worst there is as far as "proprietary, we will charge you $2,000 to type in an 8digit code for you sort of thing

Unlike some other machines, the mach version is not locked down to an older version. I run and highly recommend the MSM SUPER screen software. {Calypso Ventures}. To call it simply a screen set is to do it an injustice. Amongst many of its advantages are a Master Tool Mode, Touch Plate support {for auto tool measuring}, and a superb set of probing functions. etc. etc.

I noticed a Novakon announcement a short time ago that Smooth Stepper would be standard on all new machines. I have ordered the upgrade. My understanding is that it will eliminate certain parallel port issues and limitations.

General:

The main points to consider in choosing between the Pulsar and the Pro:

1. Work envelope: PULSAR...... PRO
.......................X:...... 15.75............. 24
.......................Y:........ 9.2............... 15
.......................Z:........12.5............. . 11.5

2. Rigid Tapping...... Yes................. No

3. Machine Size & Footprint. I suspect this is not an issue for you.


I have both machines and love them both for different reasons. I refer to the Pulsar as my Tonka Mill and I mean that in a positive way. Being "vertically challenged", I am more comfortable with the Pulsar. It just seems to fit. Whenever tapping is required, I try to make sure it fits on the Pulsar.

If I have a requirement for a large work envelope the Pro is my choice.

Good luck deciding. Whatever your choice I'm sure you will be satisfied.

John

You are hard working and so is that tormach
quick math in my head tells me that's 18 hours a day every day for 1.5 years
wow .. makes me tired just thinking about it'
md

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Originally Posted by BAMCNC.COM

Thanks Mike! I would probably run it at 500ipm to be safe, I'd rather have my acceleration cranked up as fast as I can. I'm probably behind on a few of your vids as it is, can't keep up with 5 a day :P

I'm being tracked by 8 different services on this site... I suggest everyone use "Do Not Track Me" me plugin for Firefox (or similar to other browsers)

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lol. Coming from the guy that just put up 7 or 8 in one day. Luckily, they were all really short! I was able to watch them :)

Hi I think reading your thougts give novakon a Try. And you can switch to servos any time if you really need it. I am soon build an atc (Electronic and linuxcnc component i have already because i retrofit an Bridgeport 412 ) my Mill has an iso3 spindle so i also will use orientation ...

For me, tool changes are quick. Manual, yes, but still very fast. We use a small butterfly impact wrench. The one tool that I cannot use the impact on is a 1/2" carbide end mill. I have to use a manual tool on it to eliminate pullout. That will soon change though. My small compressor that runs by the mill is only set to 90 PSI. I have a larger one now and when I get the piping done, it will have 120 PSI. That should do it. :)

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Originally Posted by Tkamsker

Hi I think reading your thougts give novakon a Try. And you can switch to servos any time if you really need it. I am soon build an atc (Electronic and linuxcnc component i have already because i retrofit an Bridgeport 412 ) my Mill has an iso3 spindle so i also will use orientation ...

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I thought about going that route, but when I started to consider shipping on some of the upgrades later, I changed my mind and ordered them with the mill. It saved me hundreds, if not a thousand. Items like the rotary table would be trucked......not cheap from Toronto to Oregon.
I also didn't want to have to have the machine down later or have to deal with the work. If ordered with the machine, they do all the installation. It did make for a good bit more money upfront, but will save me a lot later.

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Originally Posted by tmarks11

If you have that much work, than I would suggest putting together a business plan and seeing if you can swing a loan on a Haas mini mill. I don't believe you are really the user that Tormach and Novakon is aimed at. 10000 hours later, the Haas will still be going strong, but you might be shopping again for another home shop machine. And all linear rails on the Haas means you don't have to worry about bed wear, ever. And if you kill your linear rails (unlikely), they can be replaced instead of buying a new machine.

Of course, I am sure Ray will chime in here since he does production runs on his Novakon... :D

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I'm trying to grow the business on zero debt, so would be writing a check for any machine. I have Linear rails on my GT-27 and would LOVE to have them on a mill. If I had the time I would build one, but I don't.

One thing about the Tormach - I've had zero warranty issues in that time other than a bad mouse, which isn't a big deal. So it has stood up to alot of use and runs as good as it did on day one (Minus adjusting gibs)

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Originally Posted by mountaindew

You are hard working and so is that tormach
quick math in my head tells me that's 18 hours a day every day for 1.5 years
wow .. makes me tired just thinking about it'
md

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Hmmm, you are right. I haven't used it that much. Does anyone know if the stock version of Mach that comes with a Tormach already has logged hours? That doesn't help Tormach's case, if it came with "pre-hours" that means I have less hours and have to adjust gibs more often...

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Everyone else, thank you for the comments. Of course I know I put this in the Novakon Sub-Forum, so there is some bias there.

I'm limited on a machine, since it's going into a residential garage and I already have a Tormach 1100 and a GT-27 in here, along with CNC Plasma, Laser, etc (I have a shop tour video on my YouTube channel) Space isn't the #1 concern though, it's the Garage door height, and it is about 83". There are no forklift rentals around here really, and the one that is 20miles away have terrible customer service,so I would be doing everything with a pallet jack. Driveway is slanted aswell.

If you're really tight on vertical space at the door because you're putting the mill on the stand outside......you might want to leave the feet off the stand until inside. The feet mounted and fully collapsed are still more than an inch taller than your pallet jack all the way down.

I would install everything inside the garage. Have you seen how you have to put together a Tormach? They didn't design it to be used with a pallet jack - very stupid.

Pallet jack works great under the new Pro stand........just keep to the rear(panel side)......it's way heavier on that side than the front!!