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Hello All,
Looking for some advice if I may. Going to be cutting mostly aluminium but would like the chance to cut harder materials as well. Current plan is to work out of my home garage (single phase), but would also look to rent a unit if required (three phase)
Would you recommend to go for a brand new Tormach package, or buy a second hand haas (or similar) machine? ?
Thanks
can anyone share some help on this?
Seriously how do you expect anyone to help? You have not mention what sorts of things you will be making nor which markets you will serve. In general though if you expect to do commercial/production work get an industrial mill. Working out of a house though is much easier with a mill already built for Single phase.
For a new Tormach package you're going to spend well in excess of $12,000 - $15k by the time you get all the tooling. If you want it with an ATC you're above $20k. At that price you can go look at real VMCs. I bought an old Kitamura MyCenter 1 with a ton of tool holders for $8k. After rigging and phase converter and such I was in close to $10k.
If you are just doing aluminum and hobby stuff though trying to get your feet wet and you have no machining experience and you want single phase I would probably just look at the cheap RF45 style CNCs or a used Tormach. Buy something used that comes with all the tooling. If you want a real VMC you can find plenty of good old machines for pretty cheap if you put the work in. Once a machine dealer gets a hold of a machine they mark it up 50-100%+ what they got it for. I've seen them buy VMCs locally for $5k and try to hold firm at $12k for it resale. You need to approach shops directly and ask about machines they are getting rid of or put an ad out so hopefully someone with a home shop who is moving or getting rid of their machine sees it. That and watch eBay.
Like the other poster said, you need to give more details. How much do you want to spend? How many parts a day are you trying to produce? How big are the parts?
Take your time making a decision. In fact, you should probably put a window of at least a month of just looking before you even consider buying something because you'll think something was a great deal initially and maybe come to find out it wasn't after you had more experience with the market... the fact that you mentioned Hass by default tells me you probably don't know much about VMCs and the huge selection there is out there. You don't want to be uneducated and buy a VMC, it can be a recipe for disaster. You need someone qualified to inspect it for you and test it and depending on the machine you'll need a lot of time figuring it out yourself or getting some help to learn how to run it.
My machine came with a Fanuc0m which is not user friendly for a new user. It took me a while through trial and error just to figure out how to write procedures for tool changes, origins, etc. Then there is the CAM software. If you are doing 2.5D only the learning curve is not too bad with some of the packages, but if you're doing 3D parts you'll spend more time becoming proficient with a decent CAM package then with the machine. You should probably start working with the CAM now so you have a handle on it when you get your machine.
Fadals are not a bad choice for a new VMC owner simply because they are easier to service and have a lot of community support, resources and parts. If I had to do it over again being more educated as I am now I would have probably waited for a newer machine with a newer control that handles HSM a little bit better. Don't get me wrong, the 0m can cut anything, but the new HSM tool paths with highly efficient cycles that run at high feeds 150, 200 and even much higher IPM can only be ran on controls with a high block read rate and look ahead. My machine can run upwards of 300 IPM, but not when the moves are only .010" or less apart... so I'm limited to about 30-40 IPM for those type of tool paths, which is fine for me right now, but it would nice to have a machine that could run even quicker of course.
If you want single phase I don't think you'll find a machine with a ATC outside the Tormach option, except maybe those new mini Fadal things. They run close to $20k I think.
Just remember to price everything into the budget... beyond machine you have:
Phase Converter - $800 - $4k depending on size/brand/new/used
Tooling/Consumables - $1k just to scratch the surface (1 vise, a few tool holders, a few end mills, coolant, etc)
Rigging (if buying a VMC)
Air Compressor (if buying a VMC) - $400 - $1,500+
CAM - This software can be very expensive. Be sure you have a solution for tool path generation lined up before you get the machine.
All in all, you'll probably need to factor in at least another $3k-$5k on top of the machine unless you have these items already.
Oh, and if you are making more complex parts, particularly parts that require multiple tools to finish, and you're planning on making multiples and not just one-off parts, you really want an ATC. Once you have a program dialed in you want to be able to just load the stock and press play and walk away and do something else. Otherwise you're going to be sitting in front of the machine changing tools all day.
You don't need to rent a commercial space for 3 phase. You just get a phase converter for your garage. You have to have 240v available in your shop though regardless if you go single or 3 phase. I don't know of any machines except very small ones that run on 120v.
Another thing to consider is the size of your garage... most VMCs start out around 7 ft deep x 7 ft wide and are often about 8 - 9ft tall... often too tall to get through a regular garage door without disassembly and sometimes too tall for a garage when the head is fully up. Just be sure to take measurements and see what you have available for space and clearance. For some those constraints rule out traditional VMCs and Tormachs or mini VMCs are the most viable option.
Once you get your machine if you have done all your homework and made educated decisions you should be very pleased. Just do your due diligence on everything before spending the big bucks.
IMO.... Tormach is for hobbyists. If you are looking to make $$$... Haas is a good starter machine. Makino or Yasda when you get bigger.
I want to know what technical specs I should ask the marketing guys before making a purchase. I am planning to start machining aerospace parts. Appreciate any feedback.
1. How much does having through coolant help?
2. Should I be concerned about the max spindle speed or the torque? What's the significance of both and where do they matter most??
3. I heard a senior advising me that cutting tools is more important than machine tool. How much of it is true? Can you get away with a cost effective machine tool by compensating for it with modern cutting tools?
4. What are the differences between a production machine and tooling machine?
5. I know there are BT40, HSK tool holders? Which is preferred and why? What advantages and disadvantaged do they offer??
I want to know what technical specs I should ask the marketing guys before making a purchase. I am planning to start machining aerospace parts. Appreciate any feedback.
I would recommend a Sales Engineer. They are there to help. Marketing guys are there to take you $$.
1. How much does having through coolant help?.... Tremendous. 1000psi recommended. (look at flow!! 8gpm is only good for a 1/4" Drill) Great for keeping the tool cool and avoiding recutting of chips. No so great for thin wall workpieces.
2. Should I be concerned about the max spindle speed or the torque? What's the significance of both and where do they matter most?? Torque for driving bigger tools. RPM for production. Depends on workpiece material, really. Inconel torque. Aluminum RPM. I would look for 12000 RPM min. Don't forget HP.
3. I heard a senior advising me that cutting tools is more important than machine tool. How much of it is true? Can you get away with a cost effective machine tool by compensating for it with modern cutting tools? It could be like putting Pirelli's on a Yugo. All aspects of machining are important. It's all physics.
4. What are the differences between a production machine and tooling machine? Production machine is for making $$. A tooling machine supports it.
5. I know there are BT40, HSK tool holders? Which is preferred and why? What advantages and disadvantaged do they offer?? CT, BT, and HSK. All good at moderate speeds. CT is not for High RPM(25000+). BT and HSK offer more contact area.... therefore more rigidity. HSK are lighter in weight. Don't overlook the sub-styles of these. Solid, collet, and shrink fit.
All said plenty of people make $$ with a 15hp 12000rpm CT40 machine. It's about efficiency and having a solid process.
What is role in a motor HP (horse power right?) higher the HP higher the RPM and tool acceleration speeds? Correct me if I am wrong? Does it contribute to torque as well?
How major a role does integrated spindle play during process??
Generally torque will increase with horsepower. However, not always. Torque will allow the use of bigger drills and taps. Over 16mm it becomes important. You can always thread mill or helically interpolate. HP (horsepower or KW) will translate into cubic inches of material being removed per minute. This will determine the DOC. Stalling the machine is never fun.
My opinion.. I would look into the haas vf2.. very user friendly and cheaper to fix if something does go wrong.. This opinion is based on you saying that your market will be mostly alum.. if you get into harder materials I would look into something else. Like a Mazak. Im also assuming you are looking for a mill..