i think i need a cnc router but id love to hear your opinions.

i am currently using a roland mdx 40a milling machine and its not intended for metal work but i have been using it anyway...its extremely slow but i have no choice at the moment.

we have been getting a lot of jobs that are calling for sheet metal (max thickness 20 guage)to be cut in small very detailed shapes like for jewelry so im thinking maybe i should buy another machine just for cutting the sheet metal and leave my roland mill for 3d milling that it was intended for.

im very new to this but based on the fact that all my lasers are co2(cant cut metal) and we have an extremely limited budget so we cant buy a waterjet, im thinking a small desktop cnc router might do the trick...i would need something with a very small footprint(it would be for like jewelry so a very small bed is fine) actually the smaller the better because my desk space is seriously limited..it would need to be powerful enough to cut 20 or 24 guage sheet aluminum , brass and copper fairly quickly, just basic cutting of detailed shapes , i wont use it for engraving or relief work, simply to cut these very small, detailed sheet metal pieces .

anyway, does anyone know if such a machine exists? if so would it cut faster than my current mill because its extremely slow when i try to do this.

several exist, I suppose the question is the max work envelope you think you will require and budget. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25Oo7ty7e8M

Hi.thanks for the reply..my companynwas just awarded a grant so we have 40,000 we need to spend on equipment so we have no budget but just to be clear..we just bought a new roland mdx40a so we have a machine to be our 3d milling...i simply think i need another machine for literally nothing else other than cutting small (.5 inch to 1.5 inch max) pieces of various soft sheet metal in thickness no larger than 20 guage and usually 26 guage.

In terms of size...a typical job i imagine i would use this machine for is taking a one inch complex shape and trying to cut as many of them as i can fit on a 6 inch by 6 inch piece of 25 guage brass..so the bed size doesnt need to be bigger than that..my desk space and work area has little room anyway...like i said..this will be for nothing other than the job i just described so i might not even need more than x and y cnc with the z being a manual turn..all i care about is the machine is as small as i described and is powerful enough to cut the metal i described at a reasonable speed.

While we have money for a more expensive machine..we have many other things that are more of a priority so if i can find a machine thats for metal and has an extremly small foot print like 6x6 ..i would be more than happy even if the z axis was manual (if something like that exists..if i could find this machine for a few hundred to a thousand at the most id be very happy..i feelnthe cheaper the better since we already have so many machines and this would be for this one task..id live to be directed to some machines you guys feel could be good based on my descriptions..thanks again

Have you tried getting a quote on the water jetted parts?

no i havnt , i work for a weird company..we are a fashion embelishment studio and we do sampling and prototypes for the garment/fashion industry. we have a very niche market that requires a very fast turn around time , so for the most part, everything must be done inhouse and done very quickly..its for this reason im needing to source another machine for cutting of sheet metal only...i have been doing a little digging and i found what appears to be a reasonably priced chinese cnc machine ..its called the cnc 3040 and i belive there is also one called the 6020. the bed size seems good for my purposes and they claim its good for metals as well...honestly i can even go with something smaller but i have been unable to find one, is anyone aware of a cnc router that is even smaller than these that can cut metal?

this is what im looking at ..like i said, space in my workstation is seriously limited and we cut only very small things anyway, this size table seems perfect but im concerned about the specs...can someone in the know please take a look at this machine and please tell me if this would be a decent job cutting our small complex shapes in thin sheet metal(like 24 guage)
Precision Mini CNC Router Drilling Milling Engraving Machine 20x15cm 110V 220V | eBay

with that router you posted link, you wont cut ""fast"" stainless steel..

you need a machine with stronger frame.. something like the video shows.. above..

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this has cast iron parts, and hiwin rails.. gantry is fixed, and table moving...

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One of the fastest ways to cut different shapes in sheet metal is a CNC punch, can be slightly noisy and I have never seen one that small, but always a first!
And this also has to be very rigid.
Al.

I don't think you'll be very happy with the performance of that Chinese router for cutting metal. A punch press would be good if you wanted multiple parts the same and were able to make your own dies. I don't think a machine with a manual Z axis would be good for the sorts of parts you're describing; you need a machine that's able to lift the cutter out of the cut and descend on its own power; trying to do that by hand would be incredibly tedious, and wouldn't work as well.

You might take a look at the ACT DMC III on my site; it uses a fixed-bridge moving-table design and it's fairly heavy-duty; it would do a better job at cutting your sheetmetal parts than the MDX-40 . There's an option for fitting it with faster spindle (ER-11; 25k rpm) which would help get better performance from those small tools you're using.

Holding the parts down while they're being cut is still an issue you'll have to work out; have you tried sticking them down to spoilboards with wax or shellac?

You keep saying small detailed parts. A CNC, having a round rotating tool is often not the best for this as you will always have a largish internal corner radius. Mostly you'll be working with tools larger than 1mm as below this is very slow.

Waterjet and perhaps laser would be better suited as you've alluded to.

he has a budget...
so I think his budget way less than a 300K priced trumatic punch, or a laser what also several hundred of thoushand..
waterjet I think don't even in his dream..

if he works for fashion industry, then I think precision is the last thing important..

while a co2 laser is cheap, but they are ending somewhere 150-180 watt... a 1 kw output laser already cost well over 150K ...

there are one more option for small parts and sharp corners, and that is wire edm... no laser, or waterjet can reproduce that...

on ebay always can be found somewhere 5-12K
wire can be 0.15 mm about 0.006 inch thin...

thanks for all the replys, its really been helping me research all my options. exactly right when you say precision is not very important for me and we already have 4 laser cutters, unfortunately they are all for fabric and leather and such so cutting metal is out of the question.

.i think i should explain what i do......i have a desk at work where next to my computer , have a cnc mill, a 3d printer, several laser cutters ,vinyl plotter ,embroidery machine, direct to substrate / uv printers, glass kiln, lots of hand tools and materials , sublimation printer, a jewelry press, mold making equipment and metal casting station...basically i have or am trying to have all the supplies to create or reproduce just about anything...im a graphic designer who kinda stumbled into this job a couple years ago and i have slowly been adding new skills as they become needed..

basically what the company i work for does is creates prototypes and samples for all the large fashion designers....so what id like is something small that i can fit ideally on my work bench, that can do these sheet metal jobs..like i said, the lasers we have cant do it and my mill is slow and being used for other projects ...

based on your input, i think im leaning more towards milling dies and punching what i need..we have several die presses in my factory so its just the creation of the dies that is a problem..i could send them out but we need a 2 day turn around on my projects so its really needed that i do these iinhouse...

so assuming i decide to go in this direction, and i decide to source a machine that will be making 1 inch steel dies, what would be the specs id be looking for that would allow said machine to cut steel dies? if i will go this direction i really dont care about speed, i can load my job at night and let it cut all night and in the morning ill have my die and i can quickly punch the dozen of so shapes i need...

anyway, id love to hear a suggestion for a machine like this..again, what im making will be one inch steel dies so the smaller the machine the better because im seriously limited to space on my desk at the moment

its pending where youre located...

from china they can ship large machines under 1000 to usa..
from usa, you cant ship under 1000 same heavy equipment..

to making dies, with stamp... that will be too expenses for samples..

true, with wireedm you cut the stamp and die.. also the plates.. so one day you have the tool and ready to cut thoushands of..
but wire edm don't fit on your desk :-)

to cut directly the sheetmetal, go with a routertype machine..

to making dies... definitely need a machine what is heavy..

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My only other thought was to upgrade one of your CO2 laser machines with a 300W CO2 laser, it might not be the cheapest solution but would save you some of that precious space.

Wouldn't a Taig or Sherline be the best choice for this?

I was also thinking on the taig series, I just guessing of manakawari name hes outside of usa, and shipping can be extremely high..

laser 300 watt mightbe enough, but need to check twice before investing.. metals are transfer heat very well, that's why those harder to cut than wood or plastic... that's why the higher watt works better and smoother..

its so weird that there isnt an easier solution to this problem...like i said, i have several laser cutters and a milling machine, but even if i buy another milling machine or cnc router, its still doesnt seem like its an easy solution...like was previously mentioned, the correct solution is a water jet or a laser thats made for metal but unfortunately none of our 4 lasers cut metal and the demand here isnt large enough to justify the expense of purchasing another laser just for this.

what i keep thinking about is that metal im trying to cut is so thin, im trying to find a better solution and even if i was willing to buy a waterjet or another laser, it just seems like overkill considering the the metal is so thin...it just seems like there has to be a better way.

i have discovered cnc plasma cutters and they seem great but two things make this a concern, the price seems reasonable but im worried that with the fine detail needed the plasma cutter on these machines may not be ideal and also the size of these machines seems like a prolem..i just dont have the space for a 4x4 machine.

i wish a small desktop waterjet or plasma cutter existed...short of buying another cnc router better suited for metal, im kinda at a loss and even this doesnt seem like an ideal solution..i mean the guage will be 24 at the max and ofter thinner.

i just cant get over how thin the material is and knowing i have several laser cutters and a milling machine capable of cutting patterns already, im wondering if there is an easir solution that im just not seeing.

maybe q way i could lasercut an acrylic pattern that matches front and back and somehow chemically etch out the shapes i need cut from this ?? or maybe i could apply a masking agent to the front and the back of these metal shapes, laser cut the macking material and then chemically etch out the shapes i need?

perhaps this is the wrong forum to seek advice for this direction but i cant help but wonder if this might be a reasonable solution that will eliminate the need for another milling machine all together?

if you spent already money on another roland, then cut with that..
you don't have to cut it in one pass.. set multiple passes, and done..

that don't help you if a laser can cut in 50 seconds, if you don't have the ecessary space and money for..
don't even the waterjet or any other solution....

those machines are not exist in """small"" because the main thing for them is large..
the pump and intensifier so expenses for water jet that price way over on the rails and basically on the machine body...
while the whole movement might cost 20K the pump, intensifier, the head with nozzle and mixer might cost several hundred of thousjand dollar..

a regular pressure washer or airless spraypainter works with 3000 psi... water jet at least ten times..

while a carbide nozzle works great for airless spraygun, for water jet not rare diamond nozzle..

don't take me wrong, but I think you overthinking this all..

you have exist equipment.. roland can cut it..

if you count on sending out to other company, or investing another equipment, then use the exist... even it slower it will return in time, to sending forth and back, also return in money you don't invest in new equipment and new office or work space...

who cares if your roland cuts 10 min long a 20x10 mm metal, if it made on the spot..

it cuts faster.. it just an example...

bits are cheap, 3-4 dollar you can get a good bit..

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for easy solution take a look on picture :-)

10 min?? Lol i wish...just to give you an idea of the problem is that im loading a 6 inch by 6 inch piece of 24 guage brass and im cutting say 30 of this shape..its taking 24 hours to finish the job and then my blade is worthless...i have other jobs and i cant tie up the machine for 24 hours...if you were to be milling complex small shapes from brass, copper or aluminum what blade would you use??..im currently using a 1/16th carbide flat end mill and i also tried one of the needle point v shaped engraving bits..a single job ruins that blade too and also take 24 hours to cut a single job of 30 of these pieces

this way you don't get solved...

if it were simple squares, then just clip it with a shear.
in brass a carbide endmill shouldn't get dulled..

on beginning you was talking about miniature parts..

heres..

"""nothing else other than cutting small (.5 inch to 1.5 inch max) pieces of various soft sheet metal in thickness no larger than 20 guage and usually 26 guage."""


then you have two way, you invest into a machine, or outsurce the work..

any machine you try to buy, for metal, even just aluminum, it have to have rigid rails, likely hiwin..
in this small size probably ballscrew..
looking for some economic way, with rigid rails ballscrew and at least 800 w or rather 1.5 kw spindle, youll ending up at least 2500... form here a 24x36 machine about 3500 ... and I can think even you can sell the exist roland machines..

if you can use 1/8 dia bit, pending on detail you might cut around a min or so each pieces..
with a good vacuum the parts can be changed less than minute..

but don't expect anyone will tell you go ahead buy a 3020 router like you posted.. that will make the parts same ""fast"" like your roland..

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there are a few company makes very fast machines.. and designed for office environment.. fully enclosed..
but... they have their price..
on this video what you see, this machine possible cuts a 6x6 part about half min or less... without dulling the bit..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cugaYJzeIg

My first though, second and third thought is that you want to avoid those Chinese machine unless you like to tinker with electronics. They aren't extremely bad machines but that is only if you exclude the electronics.

I'm left with the impression that you don't have time to screw around with setting something up and getting it to run. In other words you need something that works out of the box so to speak. If true I'd consider simply buying another machine from Roland which should fit into your current work flow. Roland has more than a few machines to choose from that would do the job and they are known to offer decent quality.

However most of the Roland's don't strike me as being robust for milling type work. You might consider something like a TIAG mill in a CNC variant as a very low cost way into a CNC that takes the shape of a conventional mill. They can be found here: Taig Tools - Desktop Milling Machines and Lathes.. However I'm not certain this would be good enough for your needs.

You might want to consider a commercial PCB router like such: The LPKF ProtoMat S-Series. However the problem here is I'm not up to speed on how they process G-Code if at all. Another example is here: PCB Milling Machine System,PCB Prototyping Machine, with the same problem of not knowing how they handle G-Code, in any event lots of machines like this on the market. The problem with many of the desktop routers out there is that they are flimsy. If you go with one designed for PCB you at least know that the machine can handle copper and fiberglass well.

I have to wonder though if you might be limiting yourself too much here, why not buy a larger mill that could be far more flexible. Tormach come to mind here. A little higher end would be a Hass Office Mill or MiniMill. A bigger machine would be a long term investment. However a real mill would allow you far more flexibility, especially if you get away from milling sheet metal.

In any event no matter which way you go you need to buy something enclosed or fabricate an enclosure for it. This simply for safety concerns.

There are lots of ideas out there. At the moment I don't know of a generic router that fits your needs ( off the top of my head). The desktop market is limited because most people want larger machines when it comes to routers. I mentioned PCB routers because they seemed like an excellent fit for your immediate mechanical needs (small squares of sheet metal), your challenge is to find a machine that works well with your current design environment.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by manakawari

no i havnt , i work for a weird company..we are a fashion embelishment studio and we do sampling and prototypes for the garment/fashion industry. we have a very niche market that requires a very fast turn around time , so for the most part, everything must be done inhouse and done very quickly..its for this reason im needing to source another machine for cutting of sheet metal only...i have been doing a little digging and i found what appears to be a reasonably priced chinese cnc machine ..its called the cnc 3040 and i belive there is also one called the 6020. the bed size seems good for my purposes and they claim its good for metals as well...honestly i can even go with something smaller but i have been unable to find one, is anyone aware of a cnc router that is even smaller than these that can cut metal?

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In another response I mentioned looking for PCB router/milling machines, these seem like idea solutions to your sheet metal processing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by manakawari

10 min?? Lol i wish...just to give you an idea of the problem is that im loading a 6 inch by 6 inch piece of 24 guage brass and im cutting say 30 of this shape..its taking 24 hours to finish the job and then my blade is worthless...

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There are many issues that effect cutter life, Spindle RPMs, feed rates and depth of cit have to be tuned for optimal tool life, which also has to be balanced against quality. Actually running one tool for 24 hours is pretty impressive. It isn't uncommon to have to change cutter or inserts several times in one shift. One thing that might help you here big time is an automatic tool changer which would allow machining with the biggest tool possible for the task at hand.

Quote:

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i have other jobs and i cant tie up the machine for 24 hours...if you were to be milling complex small shapes from brass, copper or aluminum what blade would you use??..

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Use cutters suitable for the task at hand. This is where a router with tool change capability can do wonders for you. You can have the machine select the right tool based on size and material. For example when doing aluminum with these small cutter is is often common to use a single flute cutter.

You are actually becoming a CNC machinist by getting involved this deep. The knowledge doesn't come overnight

Quote:

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im currently using a 1/16th carbide flat end mill and i also tried one of the needle point v shaped engraving bits..a single job ruins that blade too and also take 24 hours to cut a single job of 30 of these pieces

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My first thought here is that your feed rates are slow for the spindle RPM. Also what are you using for lube/coolant. The next ugly thing to realize is that metal machining can be a bit dirty. Actually greasy or slimy, which is another reason to prefer a totally enclosed machine. Lube varies with the material being machined but aluminum often does surprisingly well with WD40, in othe materials WD40 is just about useless. On top of all of that cutters now come with coatings that are optimized for the materials being machined.

Once you settle on a machine you will need to revisit proper cutter selection.

That does seem awfully slow. What are your feed speeds and RPMs? How are you holding the metal down? Spray-etching is how parts like that are usually made. But you seem to want to do everything in-house, and that's a pretty nasty process to DIY. Abrasive water-jet would be another good way to go, or perhaps wire EDM. A Taig, as other people here have suggested, would be better than the machine you're using for this, but you'd probably want to fit it with a faster spindle if you're using really small cutters. That's not really a big deal; the Taig has an open architecture, so all you'd need to do is come up with a mounting bracket that interfaced with the dovetail spindle mount.

If you are not doing this every day I suggest you don't do it at all. Instead get in a good relationship with someone local who can both do the job affordably and meet your turn around time. If someone local has a waterjet or high powered laser they could cut 10 small pieces for you in a few minutes. Sometimes it is cheaper and easier to drop off a dxf and pic up your parts in the morning from someone better equipped for the task. The biggest problem you will run into is finding someone you can trust to meet your turn around times on a consistent basis.

Ben

using hss bit and about 800 mm per min, (35-40 ipm) 3 mm dia straight endmill

cutting time is about 40 second ... thinking on the tool home position out of way but not farer than 300 mm


part changing can be 1.0-1.2 min or less using an individual pod

that what can be calculated for series..
it can be changing faster, nowever thinking on series, working trough a shift the 1.2 min is real..


many folks run Chinese 24 hour continuously.. I also cut large stuff , starting nighttime, around 8-10 and next day morning machine still run..
as long as water runs in the spindle it wont overheat and going..

there are small motors available around 300-600 wat with 1000 Hz inverter and those can spin up to 60K


so in my opinion, there possible better machines for a lot more, however for practical life a Chinese router real alternative.. mine runs since 2012 jan and I had change the powersupply only when I tried to experimenting some settings.. so possible I messed up... beyond that all I have maintenance keeping clean the rails..