Possible FADAL purchase - all opinions wanted
I've been looking for a machine, I've read as much as I can about the FADAL 15 and think that is a good fit for a first VMC. I have experience with manual machines, but not CNC. Anyway, found a machine in California, from the Fadal Parts site (sales person). It's sort of a rush decision, and I am not sure about buying sight-unseen. But I can't travel all over the U.S. looking for a machine. So feel like I have to take a chance. Have only photo so far, and I asked for video and more details. I'm told machine is already disconnected, I know the spec's.but not the condition? They want $1K to do a machine inspection (again its not under power)?. So not sure if that is worth spending or not? So I really don't know the condition good or bad, only that it was running when disconnected, so I'm told. Sale price around 15K. Basic machine from '97 with no 4th or upgrades that I know of. Deal is supposed to include shipping to Atlanta. I justt have to arrange the unload.
Any opinions welcome and wanted,, I have to make a decision Y or N pretty fast.. Maybe today. Trying to decide if it is a worthy risk? Give it to me straight.. What is the worst case scenario if it is worn out? Hard to imagine buying a 17 yr old machine, but what I've read they are tough and easy to fix. (compared to other brands). And can't find anything in my city or close to that price. Anyone have past experience with this company in CA?
Thanks, Noyrt
Re: Possible FADAL purchase - all opinions wanted
So they can give you no assurances, or garuntees or proof all is ok? sounds to me unless you can get the basics then the machine is only worth it's weight in scrap. That is probably all they paid for it in the first place. Any business worth it's weight in gold would be more than happy to help aleaviate any concerns a customer might have with backup information. Pressuring you into a quick sale is what it all sounds like and you could be buying a can of worms. 15K could buy you a hell of a lot of new machine that could be put straight to work and proffit, this could pay for an upgraded machine later on once you become more familiar and understanding of these type of machines.
Have you looked a ta new Tormach?
Re: Possible FADAL purchase - all opinions wanted
What is there warranty on it?
What are machine specs?
Spindle speed, rigid tap, servo coolant?????
Re: Possible FADAL purchase - all opinions wanted
I have for sale a fadal 3016 that is under power and currently running parts. I have it priced close to what the vmc15 is priced.
Just sent you a private message with my contact info.
Re: Possible FADAL purchase - all opinions wanted
No warranty, he did send a photo and a formal quote, I asked for more photos and a video of it in operation. Features were pretty standard, did have coolant system (not thru spindle) and rigid tapping, but no 4th axis control. That would require further up trades he said. Standard control without any upgrades. Single phase transformer was to be included. And shipping to Atlanta included.
3 Attachment(s)
Re: Possible FADAL purchase - all opinions wanted
This was from the quote: couple of pictures attached.. You guys that know these machines better... what if anything you can tell from the electronics - cabinet photo? Thanks,,
SPECIFICATIONS:
X-Axis Travels: 20"
Y-Axis Travels: 16"
Z-Axis Travels: 20"
Table Size: 38" X 16”
Rapid Traverse (X/Y): 400 IPMAttachment 260956
Spindle Speed: 7,500 RPM
Spindle Taper: CAT40
ATC, Number of Tools: 21
Spindle Drive Motor: 15 HP
Control: Fadal 88HS
Dimensions: 75" x 77" x 78"
Weight: 5,500 LBS
EQUIPPED WITH:
• Fadal 88HS Control
• 7,500 RPM
• Standard Torque
• Rigid Tapping
• High Speed CPUAttachment 260958
• GraphicsAttachment 260962
• Linear Ways
• Flood Coolant
• Manuals
INCLUDED OPTIONS:
• Single Phase Transformer
NOTE: MACHINE RUN LESS THAN 20 HRS/WK BY A LARGE CORPORATION, SPECIAL PRE-REMOVAL PRICING
Re: Possible FADAL purchase - all opinions wanted
The Fadal 15 is a decent machine and easy to repair. Any used machine you buy may need some repair. However, don't compare it to a Tormach they are not in the same ballpark. The Tormach may be a decent hobby machine but that is just that. Tormach are stepper motors. The Fadal is a AC or DC servo with three times the power. I have had 3 Fadals including the VMC15XT. There is a lot of support for these machines and parts are readily available. If all you want is a hobby machine then a Tormach is fine but may even cost more with ATC and ect.
At that price I think they should be able to assure you in writing that it will not be DOA on arrival. But, just to be clear…most machines will have something that loosened up during transport. If your electronically inclined or have good common sense, any of these type issues can be fixed. I'm talking about reseating the boards and so forth before powering on. Assuming the machine is in running condition and no major problems I would consider buying it if I was in the market and it fit my needs. I've bought maybe twenty machines over the years and as long as you have 'some' mechanical skills and the support you can get here and at the Practical M site… you should be fine.
Having said that, I agree with you requiring at least a video of it running and a DOA return option of at least a week or two after delivery date. Be sure to hook up power correctly or pay to have it done and your problems should minimal. As I said, it not uncommon to have to put some money into a used machine buy. I guess $2500 to $3500 max would be a reasonable amount over the next few years, but you may not have to put out anything. Think of it as a car purchase of say a car with 90 to 100k on it and it then seems more reasonable.
If you want more information read this post of mine a time back.
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/fadal/117659-cnc.html
Other comments: 1997 is the year they started switching to AC servo's so you may have either AC or DC not a big deal. The spindle motor may list 15 hp on it but all VMC 15 were operating at 7.5 hp and our current VMC15XT has 15hp listed also on the motor. I think with the rigid tap they use that motor but not sure… the spindle drive is only 7.5hp.
Make sure they put the counterweight bars in and follow the manufactures instructions for shipping and removing the bar on startup. Manuals are nice to have but available here too:
Fadal Manuals - Complete documention in PDF format
Check and replace the grease lines if need be. Buy a new washer kit for the draw bar as they are mostly likely in need of replacement (about 75 bucks). The wipers may need replacement. These are all minor repairs and plenty of support here and the other site.
I have not heard of any bad things about Fadal Parts, I think we have bought parts from them at times.
Lastly, for the average Joe, a Fadal is one of the best old machines out there. Lots of part support, feedback support, and easy to work on. Almost every problem has been addressed at one time or another. All parts are in the US and at half or less than Japanese and foreign machines.
Good luck on what you decide… final note most asking prices have some wiggle room, 10 or even 15% and they are more inclined to offer the 1K check out than a price discount. I might go for that being thrown in free along with A two week DOA option ( All a DOA option is… is a buy back minus the shipping cost each way. So be sure you understand that. Better out a few thousand bucks than the machine cost.)
If you wish to talk PM me and I'll call you...
Re: Possible FADAL purchase - all opinions wanted
My heart goes out to you because I've been in your shoes. In fact, I just bought my first Fadal last week, also a VMC15, 1995 vintage. That said, you're in Atlanta and they're in CA, they're rushing your decision, and that is - in my experience - always a bad idea. From the pictures, the machine looks decent, e.g. no missing paint inside the cabinet from chips wearing it away, but that's all I, or anybody, can really see because sans hearing it run, playing with it a little bit, etc. how can you possibly know whether it's a gem or a goat?
Yes, I know you don't want to hear this but if it were me, I wouldn't let them rush me because it's too important a decision (and too much money). Anyway, someone else said compare it to a car with 90k miles on it and I agree. The question is, would you buy a used car from a dealer in CA when you couldn't even listen to it and he was rushing you to buy it? I didn't think so.
By the way, I ask this in semi-jest because my very first eBay purchase (back in 2000) was of a car in San Jose. Once I bought it (based solely on pictures and a phone conversation), me and a buddy flew out there and drove it back (to my town on the coast of North Carolina) over the course of a buddy-week. No, I hadn't listened to the engine over the phone, or anything, and was going just on what the buyer said but the difference is me and my pal were extremely familiar with those particular cars, so was the seller, and he both made all the right noises and didn't try to rush me.
Sadly, in your case, you're operating almost exactly like I was with my recently purchased Fadal with respect to experience because I didn't (and still don't) know squat about them. However, the difference is mine was a local purchase under power and I was fortunate to have a knowledgeable friend to keep me out of trouble.
My advice is don't fool around with anybody trying to rush you into a purchase decision - of anything - because while you may buy in haste, you'll repent at leisure.
Last thing, what about the fellow who sent you a PM about his? Remember, these are very popular mills, common as dirt, and thus, come up for sale all the time. Why the rush!
Re: Possible FADAL purchase - all opinions wanted
Thank you for the comments guys. I really appreciated it.
I was not in a terrible rush, but just sort of have the fever to get into this, and I have been looking for a few months. I should have started looking her long ago. My bad.....
I read all of your posts, thank you..
I called the salesman this morning and had a longer talk about the machine, It was under power and running and the location, but still unknown exaclty why it is being removed. He said they were upgrading, but won't give me to contact to call them directly. (rules) His urgency I gather was that the machine is in AZ, while he is in CA. and he offered to ship directly from their location to me, without having to bring it back to CA. I understand that, actually I have been in touch with him for a month or more looking at other mahcines but the prices were just out of reach. Being condition unknown, but the photos look fair, I made a much lower offer, and with some reluctance he countered within 500 of it after some delay on the phone. So I decided to roll the dice an go ahead.
Money has not changed hands yet, but he is supposed to send documentation today to sign. I will ask about the DOA clause (I didn't know about that) but he didn't mention that, only stating that there would be insurance on the shipment. I assume he is looking for flatbed on a return trip looking for an extra load? Generally cheaper that way. I'm not familiar with shipping circles? He said I was beating him up pretty bad, but I said he never sent me a video of it operating and it is now disconnected. Apparently the company moved it out when their new machine arrived? So I have to accept some risk. I talked to a dealer here in ATL and they agreed that most basic problems could be fixed for less than 5K in parts (assuming it was running when taken down.) and any offer in that ballpark was a worthy risk. We settled on 12K flat including the shippng to ATL. He said the they would lock the ways and the head for shipping at the business. It has the manuals, and I am an aircraft mechanic by trade, so I know i can handle anything mechanical and many things electrical. Just need to learn how the computer system is configured. I'm new to CNC software, programming and the like. Now I'm most concerned about S&H. I was concerned about the pendant, but he said they are normally not removed. Just to cover the machine with a heavy tarp. and chain it down. Hopefully they will prep it correctly.
I will still have to rent a forklift for unloading.
Yes I saw the email that Jim sent with the photos, it looks like a nice machine, but still a little big for the space I have in my basement. it is going to be tight with the 15 as it is. I really don't have much room. I'm hoping I don't have to take the motor off to get it in my door..is 84" high? And I am worried a little about cooling. How hot do they get? Maybe need to add extra fans to the case or something, it may be sitting back in a corner.
He would not throw in the single phase transformer at the lower price so I am going to need that. Or to buy a phase converter (digital / rotary). Any opinions.? Anyone have the single phase transformer, for sale?
I will see how the day goes.
Thanks for all the feedback.
Re: Possible FADAL purchase - all opinions wanted
Oh one more thing of interest, when I talked to a dealer here in Atlanta, they said FADAL was coming back, and they expect to have new machines on the showroom floor sometime this year. So maybe a good thing. Interesting.
Noyrt
Re: Possible FADAL purchase - all opinions wanted
Not to hijack your thread but I too am in the market for a single phase inverter. I posted about running it off a VFD (below) so perhaps we can help each other.
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/fadal/...ml#post1612414
Re: Possible FADAL purchase - all opinions wanted
I don't think the transformer is required. The VFD spindle could run single phase and the control I believe is 120v so just a rewire. Not 100% sure, others that have done it may chime in.
Re: Possible FADAL purchase - all opinions wanted
I have used Fadals for 15 years and currently have 2 in my own shop. They are good affordable machines in the used market. One upgrade is to get the CALMOTION USB adapter.
That being said unless the seller has absolute proof the machine works I would not touch it.
Re: Possible FADAL purchase - all opinions wanted
Noyrt,
Your looking for a Fadal T813 transformer or a T814 . They used to be 1200 bucks new, if you can get FADAL Parts to sell you and ship that transformer with the machine for 500 to 700 bucks... you would be WAY ahead. some people use rotory converters which works OK too if it's the right one but now your looking at 2400 bucks or so.
BTW- All dealers say your killing them... it's SOP.
Re: Possible FADAL purchase - all opinions wanted
Tell us more about the calmotion usb, please.
Re: Possible FADAL purchase - all opinions wanted
Re: Possible FADAL purchase - all opinions wanted
Quote:
Originally Posted by
scadvice
Noyrt,
Your looking for a Fadal T813 transformer or a T814 . .
Just curious what is the difference between the T813 and T814? Also how much "actual current draw" can I expect operating the machine. I know if you load the spindle its going to go up.. just looking for an idea of what it usually pulls. I plan on supply to be at least #4 wire. with a 60-70A breaker. I have a 200A service and about a 30' run to the machine.
Thanks, Noyrt
Re: Possible FADAL purchase - all opinions wanted
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Noyrt
Just curious what is the difference between the T813 and T814? Also how much "actual current draw" can I expect operating the machine. I know if you load the spindle its going to go up.. just looking for an idea of what it usually pulls. I plan on supply to be at least #4 wire. with a 60-70A breaker. I have a 200A service and about a 30' run to the machine.
Thanks, Noyrt
I'm not sure what the difference between the two transformers. Check with these guys Parts from one of the Originators of the FADAL Machine they are a great help. The founder is David E. de Caussen's son named David (also). David E. is one of the original founders of FADAL. Lot's of manuals and references here.
Here is a calculator to see the wire size for the distance from your breaker box. #4 seems right by it... only 1/2% drop. If I recall correctly 60 amp for a single phase set up is all you need. These machines are not that power hungry your compressor draws more most likely.
Voltage Drop Calculator
Re: Possible FADAL purchase - all opinions wanted
If you are planning on using small cutters or machining lots of aluminum or plastic i would look for a 10k spindle
