Want to control your spindle with Mach3 but can't.. Maybe this helps.

Being an SX3 owner, I have had no real way to control the SX3 from the CNC controller. With ambitions of having an ATC and being able to program speed changes through Mach, I was at my witts end trying to decide what to do.

After looking around at various options such as - Replaceing the driver and keeping my existing 1000 watt BLDC motor, Replacing the whole thing with a different mill, Replacing the motor and controller with a VFD and 3 phase motor, etc, etc. I stumbled across Keling's website and a motor and controller system that he was selling. At the time, I was burnt out on the whole thing but I decided to spend the time researching what I could find out about. So I contacted John (Keling) and Syil and everyone that I knew might have an answer. I got a response back from John at Keling and he said he wasn't sure about the mach 3 connections but I could contact Syil, etc.

I contacted them and they said they had no idea. On a hunch, I just bought the set of motor and controller on a chance that it might work. my hunch paid off and now I have a motor and controller that I can run using Mach3 directly. What I have is to large for my SX3 but it will be the start of my G0516 CNC lathe build. And now I can use it with Constant velocity turning. Keling is getting more of the motors in that are the 1100 watt size soon so I will be on the list and review that as well. What I bought was a 2200 watt/3 hp size. Runs from 400rpm to 6000rpm and is powered with 110 volts/or 220volts single phase.

The system can be found here. http://www.kelinginc.net/CNCmillingcontroller.html

These can be run using different inputs such as 0-10Volt like a standard VFD and also a PWM input directly from your Breakout board such as a C11g or the like. I am unsure about the G540, but I will be using that soon for my lathe and will determine that later on. I am using the Step and Direction settings in Mach 3 and using PWM for control. I am able to use the machine both forward and reverse spindle control and control the full speed range from 400 to 6000rpm with surprising accuracy. Overall, the speed is stable within 20 rpms around my target.

I posted a video on the system [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OO9x40I4QJo"]YouTube- motor and controller review[/nomedia], and it also shows the speed control from Mach and how the response is. Being the first controller I have setup, I can only say that I was either desperate and it works OK in your view, or in mine, I am extremely pleased with the outcome. Please do tell me if you think something could be done better. I do like constructive criticism.

I have attached the screen shots that show my settings in Mach 3 using the PWM settings. Being the first batch that John ordered from SangMutan (The system vendor) mine didn't have the control chip for the 0-10volt input, but John says the next ones will have that, in addition to the PWM. Both in the 1100 watt and the 2200 watt model.

I have attached the photos of the Mach 3 Settings to the thread that I used to show the above video and they should be very close to your settings. I also have linked higher res pictures to the thread that show more detail about the motor and controller, such as Size of the motor and size of the controller. Obviously, the 1100 watt model will be smaller and looks to be a dropin fit for the SX3. Myself, I will be storing my controllers outside of the SX3 chassis so I do not have to remove the mill from its enclosure to work on it, should the need arise.


As for the wiring for the device, I simply have 4 wires coming from my c11g board connecting to the driver. Those are 5+ volts, Ground(Gnd) and then wires coming from output 1 and 17 that go straight to the CN6 connector on the driver. My output 1 goes to PWM and the Output 17 goes to F/R on the CN6. The settings in Mach 3 determine my direction and pulse. One thing to note is that once you supply +5 volts to the BLDC drive on CN6, it will disable the spindle controller button panel. So it would be good to add a switch to your system that can toggle the use of the panel if you are in Manual mode. One other wiring item is on the 2200 watt model, there is a Jumper lead that needs to be connected if using 110volt power so that you get your full RPM range from the unit. This is located at the end of the driver next to the capacitors. I do not think this is needed if using it on 220 Volt. The wireing for the motor is very straight forward and the letter codes are on the wires for the motor correspond to the Driver and the same for the wires between the panels. There are also other inputs such as a temperature input and others that are listed in the manual. That is linked at the bottom of the thread.

The Button panel is the EXACT same size and layout as the current SX3 controller panel as well, so it could be a direct replacement. I believe the LCD is as well, but I have not blueprinted my existing SX3 lcd as of yet, but I would be surprised if it isn't.


I am in the process of building a plate for my Lathe control panel that will look similar to the c6 lathe control, and then I will start the Motor mount for the lathe. Then I will begin the full CNc conversion. Stay tuned, I'm going to add info to this thread as I work with this system more.

I hope this 1100 watt model gives you an option to use with the SX3 if you have one, but on the other hand. These motors and controllers would work on a Scratch build as well as anything else. Even an Rf45 or small Bridgeport could be enhanced by this 2200 watt system. You could probably even use the 22000 watt with an SX3 if you wanted, but you would have to get creative with the motor mounts. You can see below how much larger the motor is to the X3 motor below. The X3 isn't much smaller than the SX3 BLDC motor and there is much more mass to the 2200 watt one next to it. Also about a 11 pound difference in weight.



Keep the chips flying, Chris.



Motor size comparisons
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...e/IMG_0005.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...e/IMG_0004.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...e/IMG_0001.jpg

Controller Top View
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...iver-top-1.jpg
Closer view of Driver connections
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...Controller.jpg
Driver input panel
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...Controller.jpg
Driver Side View
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...river-side.jpg

Button Panel
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...eyboard-Fr.jpg
Panel Backside
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...ine/Keypad.jpg

LCD Back
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...ne/LCDback.jpg


There is a product Announcement here:
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93745

SangMutan Website here:
http://www.sangmutan.com/

As for other products mentioned in this article,

The c11G Breakout board can be found here.
http://www.cnc4pc.com/Store/osc/prod...products_id=46

I also use a C3 Index card to read RPM within Mach3
http://www.cnc4pc.com/Store/osc/prod...roducts_id=129

Hi, thanks a lot for your time, very good post, will keep it in my favorite

for future use.

Jeff

That looks like it would be just the ticket for the G0602 to get a variable speed drive.

Thanks for the information Chris, I've been looking at ways to get the spindle of my Syil SX3 back under Mach control as the existing Syil control board is woeful in this respect.

This gives me another option to consider.

Thanks for the input guys. This has been a project I have looked forward to for a long time. But frankly, I didn't know enough about 3 phase motors and VFDs to match anything up and there weren't any really good guides that explained it that I could find. When I ran across this set, I thought this could work but I still couldn't get a definitive answer. I thought, Heck, I waste more money than this set on parts and tooling that I'll probably never use, and at least I can manually control the speed with my lathe, so it wouldn't be a big loss. Instead I found my answer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by iGG1e

Thanks for the information Chris, I've been looking at ways to get the spindle of my Syil SX3 back under Mach control as the existing Syil control board is woeful in this respect.

This gives me another option to consider.

---

On your Syil SX3, Did the video of this motor show much better responsiveness to the speed input? I remember that some said that the original Syil controller had to "hunt" for the speed and would be all over the board and take a very long time to find the correct speed.






Also I have posted my plate design for the button plate and LCD for the G0516. With a little adjustment, it would probably work on others as well. Maybe it will help.

Alibre Part file (Warning, many, many Measuring lines due to holes being of center on the mounting plate.)
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9207121/Lath...20plate.AD_PRT

.STP file
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9207121/Lath...ut%20plate.stp

.igs File
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9207121/Lath...ut%20plate.igs

so does this kit allow the servo to run as either rpm/dir or step/dir?

This is not a "Servo" motor but a Brushless DC motor. RPM/DIR would be closer to it's design.

The videos show the connections.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cjdavis618

On your Syil SX3, Did the video of this motor show much better responsiveness to the speed input? I remember that some said that the original Syil controller had to "hunt" for the speed and would be all over the board and take a very long time to find the correct speed.

---

Sorry Chris, completely missed this for some reason. As is stands now if I try to use the spindle under CNC control it takes about 40 seconds to get to the final speed. This final speed is quite often way off from the requested speed. I did profile the curve so I could input values to get the real speed, but as I don't bother with the spindle under CNC control any more I know the front panel buttons do directly relate the indicated to real speed accurately.

The other worrying aspect to the standard controller and motor was the rather butt clenching inducing trick of actually starting off in reverse and then change direction once it'd reached the target speed.

All in all, I just gave up with the Syil controller under Mach control.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cjdavis618

Being an SX3 owner, I have had no real way to control the SX3 from the CNC controller. With ambitions of having an ATC and being able to program speed changes through Mach, I was at my witts end trying to decide what to do.

After looking around at various options such as - Replaceing the driver and keeping my existing 1000 watt BLDC motor, Replacing the whole thing with a different mill, Replacing the motor and controller with a VFD and 3 phase motor, etc, etc. I stumbled across Keling's website and a motor and controller system that he was selling. At the time, I was burnt out on the whole thing but I decided to spend the time researching what I could find out about. So I contacted John (Keling) and Syil and everyone that I knew might have an answer. I got a response back from John at Keling and he said he wasn't sure about the mach 3 connections but I could contact Syil, etc.

I contacted them and they said they had no idea. On a hunch, I just bought the set of motor and controller on a chance that it might work. my hunch paid off and now I have a motor and controller that I can run using Mach3 directly. What I have is to large for my SX3 but it will be the start of my G0516 CNC lathe build. And now I can use it with Constant velocity turning. Keling is getting more of the motors in that are the 1100 watt size soon so I will be on the list and review that as well. What I bought was a 2200 watt/3 hp size. Runs from 400rpm to 6000rpm and is powered with 110 volts/or 220volts single phase.

The system can be found here. http://www.kelinginc.net/CNCmillingcontroller.html

These can be run using different inputs such as 0-10Volt like a standard VFD and also a PWM input directly from your Breakout board such as a C11g or the like. I am unsure about the G540, but I will be using that soon for my lathe and will determine that later on. I am using the Step and Direction settings in Mach 3 and using PWM for control. I am able to use the machine both forward and reverse spindle control and control the full speed range from 400 to 6000rpm with surprising accuracy. Overall, the speed is stable within 20 rpms around my target.

I posted a video on the system YouTube- motor and controller review, and it also shows the speed control from Mach and how the response is. Being the first controller I have setup, I can only say that I was either desperate and it works OK in your view, or in mine, I am extremely pleased with the outcome. Please do tell me if you think something could be done better. I do like constructive criticism.

I have attached the screen shots that show my settings in Mach 3 using the PWM settings. Being the first batch that John ordered from SangMutan (The system vendor) mine didn't have the control chip for the 0-10volt input, but John says the next ones will have that, in addition to the PWM. Both in the 1100 watt and the 2200 watt model.

I have attached the photos of the Mach 3 Settings to the thread that I used to show the above video and they should be very close to your settings. I also have linked higher res pictures to the thread that show more detail about the motor and controller, such as Size of the motor and size of the controller. Obviously, the 1100 watt model will be smaller and looks to be a dropin fit for the SX3. Myself, I will be storing my controllers outside of the SX3 chassis so I do not have to remove the mill from its enclosure to work on it, should the need arise.


As for the wiring for the device, I simply have 4 wires coming from my c11g board connecting to the driver. Those are 5+ volts, Ground(Gnd) and then wires coming from output 1 and 17 that go straight to the CN6 connector on the driver. My output 1 goes to PWM and the Output 17 goes to F/R on the CN6. The settings in Mach 3 determine my direction and pulse. One thing to note is that once you supply +5 volts to the BLDC drive on CN6, it will disable the spindle controller button panel. So it would be good to add a switch to your system that can toggle the use of the panel if you are in Manual mode. One other wiring item is on the 2200 watt model, there is a Jumper lead that needs to be connected if using 110volt power so that you get your full RPM range from the unit. This is located at the end of the driver next to the capacitors. I do not think this is needed if using it on 220 Volt. The wireing for the motor is very straight forward and the letter codes are on the wires for the motor correspond to the Driver and the same for the wires between the panels. There are also other inputs such as a temperature input and others that are listed in the manual. That is linked at the bottom of the thread.

The Button panel is the EXACT same size and layout as the current SX3 controller panel as well, so it could be a direct replacement. I believe the LCD is as well, but I have not blueprinted my existing SX3 lcd as of yet, but I would be surprised if it isn't.


I am in the process of building a plate for my Lathe control panel that will look similar to the c6 lathe control, and then I will start the Motor mount for the lathe. Then I will begin the full CNc conversion. Stay tuned, I'm going to add info to this thread as I work with this system more.

I hope this 1100 watt model gives you an option to use with the SX3 if you have one, but on the other hand. These motors and controllers would work on a Scratch build as well as anything else. Even an Rf45 or small Bridgeport could be enhanced by this 2200 watt system. You could probably even use the 22000 watt with an SX3 if you wanted, but you would have to get creative with the motor mounts. You can see below how much larger the motor is to the X3 motor below. The X3 isn't much smaller than the SX3 BLDC motor and there is much more mass to the 2200 watt one next to it. Also about a 11 pound difference in weight.



Keep the chips flying, Chris.



Motor size comparisons
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...e/IMG_0005.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...e/IMG_0004.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...e/IMG_0001.jpg

Controller Top View
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...iver-top-1.jpg
Closer view of Driver connections
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...Controller.jpg
Driver input panel
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...Controller.jpg
Driver Side View
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...river-side.jpg

Button Panel
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...eyboard-Fr.jpg
Panel Backside
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...ine/Keypad.jpg

LCD Back
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...ne/LCDback.jpg


There is a product Announcement here:
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93745

SangMutan Website here:
http://www.sangmutan.com/

As for other products mentioned in this article,

The c11G Breakout board can be found here.
http://www.cnc4pc.com/Store/osc/prod...products_id=46

I also use a C3 Index card to read RPM within Mach3
http://www.cnc4pc.com/Store/osc/prod...roducts_id=129

---

Hi All,

we have 2.2KW/6000RPM + Motor Driver kit and 1.1KW/6000 RPM motors + Motor Driver kit in Stock now

pls check here
http://www.kelinginc.net/CNCmillingcontroller.html

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kelinginc

Hi All,

we have 2.2KW/6000RPM + Motor Driver kit and 1.1KW/6000 RPM motors + Motor Driver kit in Stock now

pls check here
http://www.kelinginc.net/CNCmillingcontroller.html

---

How big are the motors, weight, shaft size? Are they all one size, but different powers? That'd be a lot of weight for an X2, but if the motor is ighter for the lower outputs, it might be what I'm looking for.

Hey, the video says 400-6000rpm, but the data sheet says 400-3000rpm. Which is it, and are you over speeding the motor x 2? If so, are you guaranteeing the motor for speed damage if it occurs?

Thank you Chris for posting this. Very informative and answered all my questions. I will order one of the 1.1KW motor kit soon for my mill. I've been experimenting with a 1KW treadmill DC motor and although it works well, I have heat issues and and like you mentioned the brushes seem to burn up quickly. But hey I got it cheap so no complaints.

EK

I found the motor dimensions here
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attach...6&d=1269503728

The 1100W motor will be a good fit for the X2, if its the 92mm size, with some extra column support and a good base for the mill to stand on. I'm going to get one for my X2... see here

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111980

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MrWild

How big are the motors, weight, shaft size? Are they all one size, but different powers? That'd be a lot of weight for an X2, but if the motor is ighter for the lower outputs, it might be what I'm looking for.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cjdavis618

Being an SX3 owner, I have had no real way to control the SX3 from the CNC controller. With ambitions of having an ATC and being able to program speed changes through Mach, I was at my witts end trying to decide what to do.

After looking around at various options such as - Replaceing the driver and keeping my existing 1000 watt BLDC motor, Replacing the whole thing with a different mill, Replacing the motor and controller with a VFD and 3 phase motor, etc, etc. I stumbled across Keling's website and a motor and controller system that he was selling. At the time, I was burnt out on the whole thing but I decided to spend the time researching what I could find out about. So I contacted John (Keling) and Syil and everyone that I knew might have an answer. I got a response back from John at Keling and he said he wasn't sure about the mach 3 connections but I could contact Syil, etc.

I contacted them and they said they had no idea. On a hunch, I just bought the set of motor and controller on a chance that it might work. my hunch paid off and now I have a motor and controller that I can run using Mach3 directly. What I have is to large for my SX3 but it will be the start of my G0516 CNC lathe build. And now I can use it with Constant velocity turning. Keling is getting more of the motors in that are the 1100 watt size soon so I will be on the list and review that as well. What I bought was a 2200 watt/3 hp size. Runs from 400rpm to 6000rpm and is powered with 110 volts/or 220volts single phase.

The system can be found here. http://www.kelinginc.net/CNCmillingcontroller.html

These can be run using different inputs such as 0-10Volt like a standard VFD and also a PWM input directly from your Breakout board such as a C11g or the like. I am unsure about the G540, but I will be using that soon for my lathe and will determine that later on. I am using the Step and Direction settings in Mach 3 and using PWM for control. I am able to use the machine both forward and reverse spindle control and control the full speed range from 400 to 6000rpm with surprising accuracy. Overall, the speed is stable within 20 rpms around my target.

I posted a video on the system YouTube- motor and controller review, and it also shows the speed control from Mach and how the response is. Being the first controller I have setup, I can only say that I was either desperate and it works OK in your view, or in mine, I am extremely pleased with the outcome. Please do tell me if you think something could be done better. I do like constructive criticism.

I have attached the screen shots that show my settings in Mach 3 using the PWM settings. Being the first batch that John ordered from SangMutan (The system vendor) mine didn't have the control chip for the 0-10volt input, but John says the next ones will have that, in addition to the PWM. Both in the 1100 watt and the 2200 watt model.

I have attached the photos of the Mach 3 Settings to the thread that I used to show the above video and they should be very close to your settings. I also have linked higher res pictures to the thread that show more detail about the motor and controller, such as Size of the motor and size of the controller. Obviously, the 1100 watt model will be smaller and looks to be a dropin fit for the SX3. Myself, I will be storing my controllers outside of the SX3 chassis so I do not have to remove the mill from its enclosure to work on it, should the need arise.


As for the wiring for the device, I simply have 4 wires coming from my c11g board connecting to the driver. Those are 5+ volts, Ground(Gnd) and then wires coming from output 1 and 17 that go straight to the CN6 connector on the driver. My output 1 goes to PWM and the Output 17 goes to F/R on the CN6. The settings in Mach 3 determine my direction and pulse. One thing to note is that once you supply +5 volts to the BLDC drive on CN6, it will disable the spindle controller button panel. So it would be good to add a switch to your system that can toggle the use of the panel if you are in Manual mode. One other wiring item is on the 2200 watt model, there is a Jumper lead that needs to be connected if using 110volt power so that you get your full RPM range from the unit. This is located at the end of the driver next to the capacitors. I do not think this is needed if using it on 220 Volt. The wireing for the motor is very straight forward and the letter codes are on the wires for the motor correspond to the Driver and the same for the wires between the panels. There are also other inputs such as a temperature input and others that are listed in the manual. That is linked at the bottom of the thread.

The Button panel is the EXACT same size and layout as the current SX3 controller panel as well, so it could be a direct replacement. I believe the LCD is as well, but I have not blueprinted my existing SX3 lcd as of yet, but I would be surprised if it isn't.


I am in the process of building a plate for my Lathe control panel that will look similar to the c6 lathe control, and then I will start the Motor mount for the lathe. Then I will begin the full CNc conversion. Stay tuned, I'm going to add info to this thread as I work with this system more.

I hope this 1100 watt model gives you an option to use with the SX3 if you have one, but on the other hand. These motors and controllers would work on a Scratch build as well as anything else. Even an Rf45 or small Bridgeport could be enhanced by this 2200 watt system. You could probably even use the 22000 watt with an SX3 if you wanted, but you would have to get creative with the motor mounts. You can see below how much larger the motor is to the X3 motor below. The X3 isn't much smaller than the SX3 BLDC motor and there is much more mass to the 2200 watt one next to it. Also about a 11 pound difference in weight.



Keep the chips flying, Chris.



Motor size comparisons
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...e/IMG_0005.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...e/IMG_0004.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...e/IMG_0001.jpg

Controller Top View
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...iver-top-1.jpg
Closer view of Driver connections
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...Controller.jpg
Driver input panel
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...Controller.jpg
Driver Side View
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...river-side.jpg

Button Panel
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...eyboard-Fr.jpg
Panel Backside
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...ine/Keypad.jpg

LCD Back
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...ne/LCDback.jpg


There is a product Announcement here:
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93745

SangMutan Website here:
http://www.sangmutan.com/

As for other products mentioned in this article,

The c11G Breakout board can be found here.
http://www.cnc4pc.com/Store/osc/prod...products_id=46

I also use a C3 Index card to read RPM within Mach3
http://www.cnc4pc.com/Store/osc/prod...roducts_id=129

---

I noticed that there is a PIC micro in your photos. Care to take a better picture of the controller top so I can make out the PIC used on the drive. I do embedded design and could hack it and write some software to allow for tunning and accel and decel of the drive.

Matt

I just saw this Matt, I will get that photo to you as soon as I can dig out around the box that it is in.

Thanks

Hi Chris, I have recently purchased the keling 2200 watt spindle motor kit and installed it to my zx45 mill. I downloaded the pdf manual that you posted(thank you) I have the mill up and running very well with the key pad but am having a heck of a time getting it under mach 3 control. I believe the problem is that I can not get rpm output from the controller, according to the manual cn12 should give me one output signal per rev. the wiring for this is completely unclear to me but if I hook it up active low thru fout and grnd I get three signals per rev and it throws mach three into a hunting cycle
If I try to use it with no rpm input then the rpm is 150 plus off at 1500 rpm and gets worse as I go up I saw on your video that you had a clean rpm signal on your mach3 screen.
I asked keling about this and I dont think they understood my question, they said I could not control the spindle with my breakout board. and have not responded yet to my effort to explain the problem. can you please help me.
Thanks, Cork

In order to control the system with Mach 3, I used a C3 index controller card from CNC4PC so I could feed actual RPMS back into the system. By having that, I was able to use the spindle calibration to accurately adjust the speed from the controller. I guess that would be a closed loop system in effect.

The short of it is that you start with your lowest speed and the controller will send a PWM pulse to the motor, while reading the true RPMs. Once that is done and they are close it will make a reference point throughout the speed curve and adjust as needed to get as close as possible with the pulses to the required speed entered.

I am working on the 1100watt system now and getting information ready for it and will put a video out for the calibration sequence and how I did it before.

Chris

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MrWild

Hey, the video says 400-6000rpm, but the data sheet says 400-3000rpm. Which is it, and are you over speeding the motor x 2? If so, are you guaranteeing the motor for speed damage if it occurs?

---

No the speed that I am running is within specs of the motor. The documentation needs to be changed from the original spec sheet. The Motor clearly states 400-6000 rpm.

can anyone tell me the dimensions and weight of the 1000w motor.
i want to match it with a taig milling head. and need it to fit.
if it is a heavy weight, do you think i could buy a slightly smaller BLDC servo motor in stead.

i also will need to know the driver output voltage and max amperage, for refference
from the picture it seems i will need a servo motor, they look massive.