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Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing
Hello everyone. My dad requested that I look into more information on a brand new Haas 2015 VF3. I'm not a machinist by any means. I built a small 3 axis CNC router making mostly signs using the Vectric software. I just purchased Bobcad v27 a few weeks ago. I purchased the training videos and I'm somewhat comfortable with doing 2D stuff.
Dad owns a small machine shop. I'm a computer guy at a bank but understand CNC's more than he does. He wants me to do the grunt work. I work with vendors weekly and various sales people. Some of the places I deal with get aggressive on their pricing especially during end of quarter and EOY.
Does anyone have any purchasing experience on buying from Haas. How aggressive do they get? The VF3 starts at $65,900. With a small shop, he is definitely driven by price. He'd rather buy new also.
Thanks for any help.
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Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing
finance it so there is minimal out of pocket and then pay it as you use it. also look at what options you want up front and then negotiate from there. adding options later will be very expensive. ultimately what kind of work do you do? even a few year old has will save you tons of money and my 95 while not the fastest tool in my shed still runs all day everyday and when I need to fix it. has still has the parts and comes to my door. so don't worry about getting an older machine if price is a big issue.
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Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing
They don't get aggressive. Once in a while they will run a special, but for the most part its really tough to get them below advertised price. The 65K will quickly get to 70-75K with a couple options.
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Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing
Hello. Thanks for responding. He will definitely be financing something of this nature. He has already spoken to the bank and got preapproved for financing. He for sure wants to add an indexer and rotary to it. They list quite a few other options like memory upgrade, ethernet, etc.. I think the Intuitive Programming system would be nice since I surely don't know gcode. I'm not sure about the auger system options until we actually see one in person. I guess we don't know until we go onsite for a tour and talk to a sales person. I'm sure it's kind of like buying a car. Some of these cheaper addon's maybe they throw in to sweeten the deal. All we can do is let them know what we're willing to spend and go from there.
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Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing
Quote:
Originally Posted by
underthetire
They don't get aggressive. Once in a while they will run a special, but for the most part its really tough to get them below advertised price. The 65K will quickly get to 70-75K with a couple options.
Bummer on that. I wish I could talk him into going slightly used but he wants new. I'll see if I can work on him more. I hear on price getting high. Those darn indexers and rotaries don't come cheap.
Thanks.
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Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing
The Haas sales rep stopped last week. Basically when you build a quote online, that is your price. The list price of each specific add on is this price you pay. They had a tiny discount for first time Haas person. Then a bundling discount for adding some options together. Was disappointed that there wasn't more buying incentive. This is nothing like buying a car. With a car, you never pay sticker price. It is what it is but you know the prices are substantially inflated they want $1695 for 750mb of memory and $1595 for an ethernet interface. Hope my dad swings towards the used route rather than new.
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Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing
You say " you know the prices are substantially inflated they want $1695 for 750mb of memory ... but to some extent this is not the case. The base price is for a minimalist machine which can allow someone with restricted finances to get into CNC at a minimal cost. Do you really need an ehternet interface? Do you really need 750mb of memory. I have a couple of dozen, or more, Haas machine and none of them have ethernet and none have more than 1mb of memor; and collectively they have earned millions of dollars for me. If you (your father I guess) are just getting into CNC do you really need ethernet, do you really need oodles of memory? What kind of work will the machine do?
When I got into CNC 15 years ago I had an established product line and my first CNC machine was a lathe that greatly simplified the primary process for making our product; parting off aliminum round bar into pucks that then were further machined in milling machines. The CNC machine also improved efficiency on a few parts that were done in the lathe. Within 6 months the efficiency introduced by a single CNC lathe generated the free cash to buy a VF0 milling machine and things cascaded from there such that in a few years I had something like 27 machines. During this time our output went up approximately 20 fold while the number of employees went up two fold.
Could I have done this had my company been a small jobbing shop? Probably not. And I would never have taken the risk of financing a fancy fully optioned machine on the speculation it would have been a money spinner. But I might have considered somethign bare bones to get me started.
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Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing
Hello Geof, actually we didn't put either of those options in the quote. I only meant in general than if they want that kind of money for memory, you know there is quite a bit of mark up. I don't work at his shop. I work as a Network Admin elsewhere. In 2013 we stuck over 6 figures into our SAN, Storage Area Network. We can buy 32gb of memory for far less than that. Enough of that though. I guess I was just hoping for a break. More incentive. He just has a small shop. 3 guys in the shop and 3 in the office. They work mostly with Stainless steel. This wouldn't be a machine that runs 8 hours a day. Maybe 10-15 hours a week tops. The machine quoted was a VF3-YT/50. Quote was around $133k. Even a floor demo model was only a few thousand less than new. I will talk to him tomorrow. Myself, I'd rather get a newer used one. Let someone else take the hit on a new one.
In regards to 40 vs 50 taper. What justifies one vs the other, the weight of the tooling?
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Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing
It's mostly about rigidity and roughing out large amounts of material (or using larger tools). It might be an option to entertain if he does more steel work by far, but it depends on the application since small tools and/or fine details wouldn't take advantage of the added rigidity.
About the pricing stuff, I'd say don't think of it as the sticker price but rather as the direct minimum price...except that you actually know what it is unlike when buying a car.
Part of the reason they don't haggle is because they're virtually the only industrial manufacturer that advertises their prices right out in the open. It's even worse though, certain other companies won't even give you a ballpark quote unless you agree to entertain an "engineering consultation" where they surreptitiously identify the size of your operation and how much cash you're willing to fork over. On the flip side, other manufacturers won't even give you tech support over the phone for a used machine unless you pay them thousands of dollars for a "license transfer." It can get pretty rough out there...lol
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Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing
They were "running a special" when I bought my Haas. I think it was 20% off all accessories which ended up being a nice chunk of change with all the add ons I have on there. The Haas machines are built to order and there is a waiting list. It took 6 weeks for me to get the machine after I put down my deposit. Not a lot of need to mark their already lower than most prices down any lower.
Regarding "letting someone else take the hit" on a new machine I haven't seen that to be the case with Haas. Buying a newer used machine (if you can't find one) is usually one repair cost away from a new machine. They hold their value better than anything I've ever owned for sure.
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Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing
And there lies the Haas Vs Higher end machines. By the time you option out a HAAS you can normally be close in the price rage of an Okuma or Mori, or Makino that come with those "options".
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Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing
Don't let the memory vs $$ thing throw you here. In the machine world that is cheap..Take a look at Fanuc and their memory prices if you want a knee bending moment :bs:
But to your question which you already have the answer..not much wiggle room.. ok none.
Once in a while if inventory starts to pile up you will see the 20% off accessory's that has been mentioned. Usually its in the financing package/ terms that they can offer.
Japanese EOY is March 31 so if you shop Japanese machines you can get in there and work the salesman like a mule in the month of March :banana:
One of the machines I looked hard at is the Okuma Genos. It came with a LOT of options standard.
But I could never advise a new company away from Haas. Its a lot of machine for the money, you just have to watch those options they add up quick!
Gary
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Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing
They don't wiggle much if any at all. Haas is a great machine company that give endless support when you need it. Hard to put a price on that when your standing there trying to figure something out and they're just a quick phone call away. Used resale price is highest I've ever seen. Can't say Bobcad was the right choice,however. You'll likely break more tools and crash that new machine so many times that you could have paid for better cam/cad(that is awful crap,IMHO). Do you guys really need a VF3? The toolroom and mini's serve production environments all over the world, which could get you in the game for half the cost.
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Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing
Hi. Thanks for responding. Just an update: We put in a offer on a 5 year old VF3 on Friday. It sounds likely to happen from what the sales rep told me. The machine is loaded with options. I will know more in the more with the specific details. I'm concerned on what you said about Bobcad. I bought it when v24 was out for my own personal use with my hobbyist machine. About 1 month ago I upgraded to v24 which is the latest. On Thursday I spoke to a shop 30 min south of us that runs a few Haas machine. He runs an older version of BobCAD. He didn't mention of any issues with it. I've been playing with v27 for a few weeks and creating parts while watching the videos. I actually like it. Fairly easy to use. Mastercam is out of the question.
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Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing
Congrats on the VF3 find. As far as hobby use, there's a reason why Bobcad is so inexpensive. Our purchase of BC was the worst decision we have ever made in business. I wouldn't even know where to begin to explain. There's also a reason they have the longest most active user forums all over the web. I can laugh about now, but it was a bad choice. Once we switched, the difference was night and day. Best of luck with your new mill.
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Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing
Thank you. The machine is being taken out of service once this company gets their new machine in. What CAM program do you use?
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Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing
When I switched form manual to cnc, I bought Bobcad, then I bought there maintence program, then there training cd's. So many problems with the software they told me to upgrade as the NEW version was squared away. So we did. Same crap, bad post processors, qwerky issues, ruined parts, hours lead to days then weeks and months of product losses. There reputation shows this. Then one night while reading a Bobcad forum trying to diagnose some problems there were guys suggesting to throw it out the window and look at OneCNC. I contacted Patrick at OneCNC West. He sent me out a trial and we were hooked. Literally cutting parts without issues immediately. So I bought a seat. Much cheaper than Mastercam and from what Ive heard, very close to performance. Never ever looked back. Just had to get my phone # off Bobcads sales as they will pester you to death and promise the moon. Again, it's dirt cheap and the performance reflects it. I don't know any professional shop that uses it. Not that there aren't any. just never heard of any. Like comparing your new Haas to a home made Harber Freight benchtop conversion mill. Just not in the same league with quality software. The speed and complexity and ease of use is priceless. Most don't have all day to play and fiddle with Bobcad and figure out work arounds, posting on a forum, or calling them for answers(which they charge for). Patrick at OneCNC West doesn't. If you would like I would be happy to talk with you as your starting out, happy to help just shoot me a email with your #.. [email protected]
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Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing
If using 3 axis programming Bobcad is as good as anything else IMO. 4 axis programming and your better off with some of the more high end stuff. i use Bobcad almost exclusively. 99% of the time. I have only ran across one job in 5 years where i had to use Mastercam to get the G code generated the way i wanted it becuase Bobcad wasnt capable of it. The key to Bobcad is learning how to modify the post processors to spit out the G-code the way it should in the first place. Their post processors are a joke if you try and use it straight outa the box. I can run the post processor code, put it on a flash drive and send it straight out to the machines without even having to verify it. Plug it into the machine and push cycle start. Any cadcam software will be almost useless if you dont learn how to operate it properly. Its a steep learning curve if you are just getting into it.
And as far as buying new or used heres my $.02 . If you want alot of the options buy used with the options you need for the price of a bare bones new machine. If you just need a bare bones 3 axis machine go ahead and buy new.
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Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing
I had used Mastercam which was nice but horribly expensive. Tried to save some money and bought Bobcad. You're right about the post processor. It was not very intuitive to operate. Almost like the designers were not machinists. I almost always verify/simulate our code and toolpaths. With Bobcad, you had to buy Prediter Editor in addition to their software, then figure out how to use it as it wasn't integrated with Bobcad. Applications(like chamfer) didn't work properly so you would have to find a work around. Call Bobcad, submit the issue, then I saw Bobcad tech support on the user forum asking how to make the chamfer function work(WTF)? Each time they would say it's a software cliche. Resolution, buy the next version! I would post code then read line by line correcting bad code. This was ridiculous. Still to this day, there user forums are packed with questions on how to use their software. All I saying is if a person(especially new to programming) can afford to get something else, they will be money and time ahead by avoiding Bobcad. Especially considering there is free stuff that works as well or better than Bobcad.
As you are happy and have made it work for you, I can't imagine how efficient and productive you would be with a good program.
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Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing
Gitrdun- Thanks for tuning in. I appreciate you commenting on your experience with Bobcad. An update on the machine. We sent out the 10% down today and the machine will be ready to put on the truck 30 days from now. This machine is loaded! Would cost over $110k to buy this VF3 today. In regards to Bobcad, I'm going to use it at first since the investment was already made, even though I initially bought it for my home CNC router. In regards to the shop, most everything will be 2 axis milling ( pockets, profiling, drilling, taps ). We need to get at those items before we even think of moving on to 3 & 4 axis milling.
Can you guys (Gitrdun & mtlhe) please tell me what is the latest version you've worked with for Bobcad. Mtlhe- you must of been working with a really old version. Predator was included with v24 I know for sure since that was the first version I had. I have v27 now. I really want to get honest opinions from people that have v26 or v27. I watched a video on v21 and I could see why people had the negativity they did back then.
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Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing
Version 21 and anything previous was useless. Just my opinion anyways. V22 and later versions were a drastic change for the better from the previous versions. I currently use V25. I have no reason to upgrade to a newer version as v25 works fantastic for me. I will try and upload my modified post script when im at work tomorrow. You can use it as is, it will work on any version from 22 to current as far as i know. One thing ive learned when using Bobcad is save your file often when making changes or modeling a 3d object. The software is buggy and crashes often, been that way with every version ive ever owned. They spend to much time trying to make a new version to sell instead of fixing the little quirks on the current version. This is low cost software, you get what you pay for. But you dont need $20,000 software in this day and age for machining complex geometry. This isnt rocket science.
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Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing
I started w/ V22( they had so many problems they quickly created V23), of coarse they charged me full boat to upgrade to 23. Nothing but continuing problems so they fixed some and branded it V24 which I got. Had to pay the $500.00 per year maintenance fees and spend my time on forums getting answers, and evenings watching training videos that I bought. Saw OneCNC mentioned on a Bobcad forum where several guys had switched and were happy. Called Patrick at OneCNC West, he sent me a trial version. It was just so simple and easy to use and was seriously drawing and caming parts day one. No extra fees, fee tech support(if purchased through Patrick at OneCNC West). No more issues. This is only advise and my experiences that I offer to help. I have heard of people using it successfully but I've never heard anyone brag about it. Here's one piece of advice I offer if your going to try and use it, find a build version and stick with it. DO NOT download their newest version. Build versions happen when they fix known issues, they offer a newer build version. With Bobcad, other things that used to work have problems? Example: I had part programs that I strived to get all the bugs out of. I knew I could run these without issues on reoccurring parts. If I downloaded a newer build when they came out, I what go to run a previous program and break tools/crash/ruin parts??!! Pull my hair out, call Bobcad, hours of investigating to find out the new build had a bug that corrupted ANY previous builds? Ultimately users found a earlier build and reloaded it and dealt with the known issues.Bobcads answer, fix what they could, then rebrand it under a NEW VERSION. Salesman would aggressively call and sell you yet another version promising this was the bomb. Waste of alot of money and expensive ruined parts and expensive carbide tooling. All said and done I would have been money and time ahead just purchasing quality software for professional machinists. Enough said as I could go on for pages on all the issues.
BTW- that VF will be a great machine. Your father is lucky to have a industious son to lead his company into the future.
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Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing
Good points GITRDUN. Your also right about $20,000 software.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rotax91
Gitrdun- Thanks for tuning in. I appreciate you commenting on your experience with Bobcad. An update on the machine. We sent out the 10% down today and the machine will be ready to put on the truck 30 days from now. This machine is loaded! Would cost over $110k to buy this VF3 today. In regards to Bobcad, I'm going to use it at first since the investment was already made, even though I initially bought it for my home CNC router. In regards to the shop, most everything will be 2 axis milling ( pockets, profiling, drilling, taps ). We need to get at those items before we even think of moving on to 3 & 4 axis milling.
Can you guys (Gitrdun & mtlhe) please tell me what is the latest version you've worked with for Bobcad. Mtlhe- you must of been working with a really old version. Predator was included with v24 I know for sure since that was the first version I had. I have v27 now. I really want to get honest opinions from people that have v26 or v27. I watched a video on v21 and I could see why people had the negativity they did back then.
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Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing
well... it sounds a little expensive learning tool..
you can buy it... however think, to crashing an old and cheap machine takes same effort.. however the fix is not..
from machine shop to go over a router that simple.. from router to machineshop not so simple..
if I were you, I would spend some time in daddys shop beside someone already can run effectively a machining center..
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing
Heres a usable Bobcad post script for Haas Mills i modified. It gets rid of all the junk codes not needed in the Haas program and is safe to simply post and use, at least for me. On all drill cycles i modified it to output only a G73 canned cycle using Q K R F. If you dont want to peck just change that line in your program or whatever works for you. Also it will output the Predator simulation codes in the program header so all you need to do is run the post processor from BC, open it up in Predator, then push the backplot tab in Predator and watch it run the simulation if you want to verify it.
I had to add a .txt extension to the name of the file to get CNC Z to upload it. So you might have to remove that for Bobcad to recognize it, dont know. Just download it into the folder where the rest of your BC post scripts are stored.
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Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GITRDUN
Heres a usable Bobcad post script for Haas Mills i modified. It gets rid of all the junk codes not needed in the Haas program and is safe to simply post and use, at least for me. On all drill cycles i modified it to output only a G73 canned cycle using Q K R F. If you dont want to peck just change that line in your program or whatever works for you. Also it will output the Predator simulation codes in the program header so all you need to do is run the post processor from BC, open it up in Predator, then push the backplot tab in Predator and watch it run the simulation if you want to verify it.
I had to add a .txt extension to the name of the file to get CNC Z to upload it. So you might have to remove that for Bobcad to recognize it, dont know. Just download it into the folder where the rest of your BC post scripts are stored.
I had a BobCad program open and thought I would try your post. It locked up Predator when I tried to run it, every time. Had to use task manager to close the Predator. Maybe a little to many things removed?
Also it added diameter offsets for the tools?
(MTOOL T1 S4 D.116 C0. A118. H5. DIAM_OFFSET1 =.058)
(MTOOL T4 S1 D.078 C0. A0. H5. DIAM_OFFSET4 =.039)
I'm back to my slightly modified post. :)
Mike
Maybe because I'm running V-23?
M
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Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing
As far as software, you do get what you pay for. But, for the price, BobCad has always been a good deal for me.
The biggest thing with CAD software is the learning curve. Almost all issues I have seen with me and others on the web, have been just not knowing how to run it properly. There are just too many things to learn quickly and because it is complicated it is not intuitive. It's the same way with my video editing software, Abobe Premiere is fantastic, but the learning curve is very high and again nothing is intuitive, just too many fine details. Getting ready to teach someone else soon who is struggling with it.
I have considered upgrading to V27 with BobCad, but V23 is fine for what I do now.
Mike
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Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing
Ya i ran it through on my v23 and got a bunch of whacky stuff also. The program generated is garbage and the tool specs in the header arent right. Aparently ive tweaked it a few times since using it on v23, that was long time ago.
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Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mtlhe
Congrats on the VF3 find. As far as hobby use, there's a reason why Bobcad is so inexpensive. Our purchase of BC was the worst decision we have ever made in business. I wouldn't even know where to begin to explain. There's also a reason they have the longest most active user forums all over the web. I can laugh about now, but it was a bad choice. Once we switched, the difference was night and day. Best of luck with your new mill.
Yawn,,,,
For the money you cannot beat BoBCAD.
If you say BoB is Crap for the last 2 Versions,,,V26 and V27,,,,Then YOU are not learning it right.
If you can back up what your preaching,,,give me your best examples of BoB being terrible,,,,,give me anything and see if there is any Merit to what you say.I been using a long time and I bet I can prove you wrong on so many levels.
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Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Machineit
As far as software, you do get what you pay for. But, for the price, BobCad has always been a good deal for me.
The biggest thing with CAD software is the learning curve. Almost all issues I have seen with me and others on the web, have been just not knowing how to run it properly. There are just too many things to learn quickly and because it is complicated it is not intuitive. It's the same way with my video editing software, Abobe Premiere is fantastic, but the learning curve is very high and again nothing is intuitive, just too many fine details. Getting ready to teach someone else soon who is struggling with it.
I have considered upgrading to V27 with BobCad, but V23 is fine for what I do now.
Mike
Mike,I have V26 and it is great.But I have the V27 Demo and WoW,,,anybody knocking the latest from BoB either has an agenda or is just not learning it right.
BTW,,I use V23 all the time to.High Speed Pocketing from Volume Mill is awesome.
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Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rotax91
Gitrdun- Thanks for tuning in. I appreciate you commenting on your experience with Bobcad. An update on the machine. We sent out the 10% down today and the machine will be ready to put on the truck 30 days from now. This machine is loaded! Would cost over $110k to buy this VF3 today. In regards to Bobcad, I'm going to use it at first since the investment was already made, even though I initially bought it for my home CNC router. In regards to the shop, most everything will be 2 axis milling ( pockets, profiling, drilling, taps ). We need to get at those items before we even think of moving on to 3 & 4 axis milling.
Can you guys (Gitrdun & mtlhe) please tell me what is the latest version you've worked with for Bobcad. Mtlhe- you must of been working with a really old version. Predator was included with v24 I know for sure since that was the first version I had. I have v27 now. I really want to get honest opinions from people that have v26 or v27. I watched a video on v21 and I could see why people had the negativity they did back then.
You have any questions on BoBCAD,,just go to the most used forum in the whole world (ha,ha) and it would be my pleasure to help you and also I can hook you up with lots of links to learn from.
I have V23,V25,V26 JSYK
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Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GITRDUN
Version 21 and anything previous was useless. Just my opinion anyways. V22 and later versions were a drastic change for the better from the previous versions. I currently use V25. I have no reason to upgrade to a newer version as v25 works fantastic for me. I will try and upload my modified post script when im at work tomorrow. You can use it as is, it will work on any version from 22 to current as far as i know. One thing ive learned when using Bobcad is save your file often when making changes or modeling a 3d object. The software is buggy and crashes often, been that way with every version ive ever owned. They spend to much time trying to make a new version to sell instead of fixing the little quirks on the current version. This is low cost software, you get what you pay for. But you dont need $20,000 software in this day and age for machining complex geometry. This isnt rocket science.
V27 is so much better than V25,,,but I am with you,,,V25 is highly capable too.
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Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jrmach
Yawn,,,,
For the money you cannot beat BoBCAD.
If you say BoB is Crap for the last 2 Versions,,,V26 and V27,,,,Then YOU are not learning it right.
If you can back up what your preaching,,,give me your best examples of BoB being terrible,,,,,give me anything and see if there is any Merit to what you say.I been using a long time and I bet I can prove you wrong on so many levels.
Great post jrmach!
Exactly. I went straight from v24 to v27. I'd be willing to bet that most of the negatively is from people whose only experience with BC is with really old versions, especially pre- v24. I'd also be willing to bet that many negative comments also come from people that have NO experience with BC. They are just falsely judging it because of other negative comments. I have no school background with CAD design but with the BobCad videos, youtube tutorials and this forum, I find BC to be quite adaptive. I actually really like the interface. I don't want to mention any product names but with researching 2 really high dollar CAD/CAM packages on the market, I find one to be really complicated looking and the other seems weak in the CAD area. I wish people would really reintroduce themselves to the latest version.
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Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing
BoBCAD is using a lot of the same tool paths as high end software.
BoB'S Simulation is almost as good as anyone would ever need.Again,,the same as many high end companies are using.
Only reason I don't have V27 is V26 is just fine,,,BUT,,I will get V28 you can bet on it.
I have used V27 Demo a lot though.And it is awesome.
BoB , for the money,is in a class all by itself.Not only that,we have Al,and that is as good as anyone could ever expect.And in the Forums we have member Burr,who is a Guru with I think any CAD out there,but also owns BOBCAD.
I have heard great things about One CNC,so I am not knocking it in any way.But it also is not in the same $$$$$ category either.
And in case anybody wants to know I have a Haas VF-2 along with a whole room full of manual machines.I am a one man show and do mostly onsy, twosy,,work.BoB just makes sense for me economically.Master Cam it is not,,,But it does everything I ever have needed.
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Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing
jrmach- I must have struck a nerve. Bobcad is cheap software. All I'm saying is it is not on the same level as Mastercam,OneCNC,Gibbs, or the others. There is loads of free software out there that is in the same playing field as BC that you don't have to pay as much for and they have forums to answer questions just like BC. I have used these others and BC IS NOT in the same league,whatsoever. But it is next to nothing in costs. But you will pay for the small entry level price with issues. Again, just see how many threads on its use are posted everyday, all over the net. In all my travels and companies I've ever seen, I don't now ANY that use BC. I don't know about the newer versions and never will as there is no reason to play with it.
True most other software is alot more money, substantial infact. Yet, the manufacturing world pays for it. Why? Because neither they or me can afford to pay programmers to post questions on forums regarding its use. Nor do we enjoy blowing up parts and expensive setups and tooling because of that garbage you're in love with. I frequent forums for the pleasure of it, not because my company depends on finding answers to our cad/cam package. Most controllers have conversational programming that's more reliable than the versions of BC we bought. You might want to get your hands on some high end software some time. You act as if I insulted your honor. BC is like comparing a Chinese lathe to a Hardinge. Not in the same playing field. I know, I had it. I also use Hardinge lathes in our manual side, not Chinese. And if you've only used chinese lathes, you'll never know the difference of the quality parts a Hardinge will do. If you don;t know who or what a Hardinge is, I just can't help anymore. What, maybe this will be better, try comparing a garden tractor to a full sized backhoe! Clearer? No? I'm just kidding, I hope your laughing and not burning with anger.
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Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing
. I don't know about the newer
There is all you needed to say.Anything else is an un-educated opinion.
I would not even try starting a " If you don't know who or what a Hardinge is, I just can't help anymore" a battle or a questioning of smarts here.I can assure you I know my trade real well.
Fact is you are talking about something that is years ago and I about the present.I can assure you BoBCAD is a very capable software and there is nothing even close to it in its price range.
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Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing
On the sidelines here, I'd like to see someone take a part and do it in BC and in Mastercam on the same machine to see the differences. What specifically makes it so bad in your opinion I ask? Can I expect the head to come smashing into the part at 1100ipm when instead it was suppose to do a tool change? I can't speak for any 4th & 5th axis machining but I just don't buy that 15k software generates a completely different instructional set of code, .... up to 3 axis anyways. With every version, there are always improvements. The part in the video below was made using Bobcad v25. This is far more complicated than any part we will machine for a long time. Please tell me what MC, Gibbs or OneCNC would do different while machining the same part?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSQKimv9QH0
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Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing
Some of the differences between software's is the level you purchase. You will see BobCad, for example, being sold on eBay and the guy says it has all of the features. He reads it off of the CD's. What people don't often understand is that you buy what you want from level 1 of one or two pieces, like Mill and lathe, and that is all you have. You may have the disk, but you don't have the license to most of it. I believe there are about 5 levels to many of them. There are a lot of differences between the levels. Many of the features that make it work much better are in the higher levels. You get what you pay for!
The part machined above, while is comes out very nice, was machined on an open machine with very slow spindle speed and slow feeds. Still comes out nice, but could be done much faster using BobCad too.
Mike
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Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mtlhe
jrmach- I must have struck a nerve. Bobcad is cheap software. All I'm saying is it is not on the same level as Mastercam,OneCNC,Gibbs, or the others. There is loads of free software out there that is in the same playing field as BC that you don't have to pay as much for and they have forums to answer questions just like BC. I have used these others and BC IS NOT in the same league,whatsoever. But it is next to nothing in costs. But you will pay for the small entry level price with issues. Again, just see how many threads on its use are posted everyday, all over the net. In all my travels and companies I've ever seen, I don't now ANY that use BC. I don't know about the newer versions and never will as there is no reason to play with it.
True most other software is alot more money, substantial infact. Yet, the manufacturing world pays for it. Why? Because neither they or me can afford to pay programmers to post questions on forums regarding its use. Nor do we enjoy blowing up parts and expensive setups and tooling because of that garbage you're in love with. I frequent forums for the pleasure of it, not because my company depends on finding answers to our cad/cam package. Most controllers have conversational programming that's more reliable than the versions of BC we bought. You might want to get your hands on some high end software some time. You act as if I insulted your honor. BC is like comparing a Chinese lathe to a Hardinge. Not in the same playing field. I know, I had it. I also use Hardinge lathes in our manual side, not Chinese. And if you've only used chinese lathes, you'll never know the difference of the quality parts a Hardinge will do. If you don;t know who or what a Hardinge is, I just can't help anymore. What, maybe this will be better, try comparing a garden tractor to a full sized backhoe! Clearer? No? I'm just kidding, I hope your laughing and not burning with anger.
Your travels must be narrow in their scope. Most of my customers have their own machine shop. Just about all of them are running Mastercam, one is using Gibbs. There is nothing they can do with their 4 axis mills that I can't with BobCAD V26, and I'm pretty quick with it too. I'm also driving 8 VMCs (including some Haas machines) with it.
Have I had software induced crashes? Sure. Did they happen because I was in a hurry and not following my workflow of verifying my toolpaths? Just about every time. It's definitely frustrating and I'm having my own issues as I'm finally getting around to learning the lathe side. But before I drive myself bonkers I shoot on over to the forums to see if it's operator error or BobCAD error. I'm still not sure it's just me that hasn't figured out how to use the software properly. I'd say that's par for the course when you're busy and confronted with new software.
I noticed that you've been in the CNC world for about 6 years give or take. Perhaps it was your inexperience at the time that made BobCAD so rough for you. I just made a nice looking part that I first programmed in 2009. I can't remember what version of BCC I was using at the time but I was about 3 years into CAM then. I had a lot of issues and a lot of questions - I worked through them all. You probably could have too if you would have stuck with it. But no matter, you've moved on. Sorta. Unless you've tried a newer version your opinions are pretty well dated.
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Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rotax91
On the sidelines here, I'd like to see someone take a part and do it in BC and in Mastercam on the same machine to see the differences. What specifically makes it so bad in your opinion I ask? Can I expect the head to come smashing into the part at 1100ipm when instead it was suppose to do a tool change? I can't speak for any 4th & 5th axis machining but I just don't buy that 15k software generates a completely different instructional set of code, .... up to 3 axis anyways. With every version, there are always improvements. The part in the video below was made using Bobcad v25. This is far more complicated than any part we will machine for a long time. Please tell me what MC, Gibbs or OneCNC would do different while machining the same part?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSQKimv9QH0
Nice looking part! You are really going to love your new (to you) Haas. We had 4 Fadals before purchasing our first two Haas mills used. They were so nice we bought two brand new ones the following year and plan to add two more before the end of the year. Pro TIP - If this part here is representative of what you will be running on the Haas consider purchasing the HSM package. The Haas will stutter at higher feed rates if you are a fan of high RPM, light cut, high feed milling. HSM improved cycle times and tooling life without changing anything else. Make some money, but add it it to your machine as soon as possible if it doesn't already have it.