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Using new 3 phase driver as cheaper Tormach Series 3 replacement - Making progress
As some of you followed in my other thread, I totally upgraded my Series 1 PCNC 1100 only to have the original 2006 drive capacitor give out and it killed all 3 of my expensive Tormach 3-phase drives. I found this as an alternative with virtually identical specs- in fact, identical in every way except the plug for the ribbon cable. Only the new drive is about $65 - $70 bucks. I bought 3....and a new proper capcitor for a series 3 machine.
3m860 3 Phase Stepper Motor Driver-E; Ectric Motor Driver Photos & Pictures
Here's what they look like up close:
Attachment 245368
Attachment 245370
Attachment 245372
The drivers work. I managed to figure out some of the ribbon cable wiring thanks to the manual, but can only get the driver to move in one direction. Had to remove the plug, but found it necessary to make any progress.
Re: Using new 3 phase driver as cheaper Tormach Series 3 replacement - Making progres
SwampDonkey
The Tormach Drive is a Leadshine Drive, so no surprise that you were able to find one with the same/similar spec, They Leadshine make around a million of these Drives a year
You can get the same Drive here CNC 3 Phase Micro Step Stepper Motor Driver 8.3A 3M860 for Router Mill Engraving-in Other Electronic Components from Electronic Components & Supplies on Aliexpress.com
Re: Using new 3 phase driver as cheaper Tormach Series 3 replacement - Making progres
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mactec54
Well yeah, the difference being that the Tormach version is $243 without shipping...each. These are made by the same company with the same specs, but lack the convenient plug- and cost $65 each. For guys like me who cant afford to shell out that much cash (in my case, almost a grand for all 3) then there is a lot of incentive there.
What we need is the proper pinout from the ribbon cable to the new (not sold under Tormach) drivers.
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Re: Using new 3 phase driver as cheaper Tormach Series 3 replacement - Making progres
Ok, made a bit of progress.
IT MOVES! ...But only in one direction so far. Im focusing on the X axis and will deal with the clean wiring for the rest later. Seems to have all the speed, power, and smoothness of the same Tormach unit.
The ribbon cable is taking forever to decifer, PLEASE HELP with any knowledge you may have on wiring this thing up. It really appears that half the wires do nothing, and that cant be right.....
So far:
Attachment 245428
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Attachment 245430
Attachment 245432
If anybody has anything to add, please feel free. Im sure there's a few gurus out there. I'd really like to get up and running again and this is my only chance.
Re: Using new 3 phase driver as cheaper Tormach Series 3 replacement - Making progres
If it's only going one direction, then the DIR signal is not getting through. Test the driver by disconnecting the wire from DIR-, and try running the motor with DIR- disconnected, then with DIR- tied to GND. If you can't get it to reverse direction doing that, then the driver is defective, or mis-configured. PLS is obviously working correctly, or you wouldn't be getting any motion at all.
Regards,
Ray L.
Re: Using new 3 phase driver as cheaper Tormach Series 3 replacement - Making progres
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SCzEngrgGroup
If it's only going one direction, then the DIR signal is not getting through. Test the driver by disconnecting the wire from DIR-, and try running the motor with DIR- disconnected, then with DIR- tied to GND. If you can't get it to reverse direction doing that, then the driver is defective, or mis-configured. PLS is obviously working correctly, or you wouldn't be getting any motion at all.
Regards,
Ray L.
Thanks for the reply Ray.
Do you mean the main GND that powers the stepper/ motors? And the only time it moved on command was when wired incorrectly (im assuming). Going by the pinout for the 26 pin connector there are only 3 wires going to the screw terminals, the other 3 hang lose. Also, it moved when the 5V common was connected to the PLS+ with it feeding the DIR+ 5V via the blue wire.
Should I be using the ENABLE screw terminals with the 5V common feeding all positive terminals, the GND of the ENA connected to the GND of the main stepper/motor DC power, and route all PLS- and DIR- through the ribbon cable?
Re: Using new 3 phase driver as cheaper Tormach Series 3 replacement - Making progres
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SwampDonkey
...It really appears that half the wires do nothing, and that cant be right...
Well I believe that is right. Only 3 of the wires are needed.
I used the pin connections Robert referred to in your other post "Tormach Series 1 Driver Pinout" to replace my 4th Axis Tormach driver with a Leadshine driver. These connections worked for me (thanks Robert).
The table you posted in post 4 is different! I've never seen this table before, where did you find it? I presume that you must be using a controller board that is compatible with the new 3 phase drives (like mine) so I would expect the pin-outs provided by Robert to work for you too. Assuming this is the case then the direction control definitely would not be working the way you have it connected now, but I'm also surprised that the drive is moving at all.
Check to see if you have 5V on wire 4 (as in the above table) or on wire 3 (according to Roberts data). You can measure between the wires and virtually any part of the cabinet. I just tested between the 5V wire and the large mounting plate at the back of the cabinet holding the drives and other components (just to make sure).
Don't connect any of the inputs to the power ground or any other power terminals. Basically don't connect anything in any way that isn't documented. You could create some crazy effects that nobody will be able to help you with. You do not need to connect anything to the enable inputs (think of them more as DISable inputs).
Good luck,
Step
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Re: Using new 3 phase driver as cheaper Tormach Series 3 replacement - Making progres
Quote:
The table you posted in post 4 is different! I've never seen this table before, where did you find it? I presume that you must be using a controller board that is compatible with the new 3 phase drives
Yes! Thats from the new HUGE users manual for the Series 3.
Quote:
Check to see if you have 5V on wire 4 (as in the above table) or on wire 3 (according to Roberts data). You can measure between the wires and virtually any part of the cabinet. I just tested between the 5V wire and the large mounting plate at the back of the cabinet holding the drives and other components (just to make sure).
Ah, yes I do have 5V on wire 4. In this image it would be the red wire. None on wire 3. There seems to be no GND. Or none that I can find.
Attachment 245490
Quote:
Don't connect any of the inputs to the power ground or any other power terminals. Basically don't connect anything in any way that isn't documented. You could create some crazy effects that nobody will be able to help you with. You do not need to connect anything to the enable inputs (think of them more as DISable inputs).
Good luck,
Thanks, Im gonna need it:)
I need to draw out a nifty diagram to show where these wires need to go where. Any good free programs out there? My comp crashed and im fighting windows 8 right now, and sketchup now costs quite a bit.
Re: Using new 3 phase driver as cheaper Tormach Series 3 replacement - Making progres
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TurboStep
Don't connect any of the inputs to the power ground or any other power terminals. Basically don't connect anything in any way that isn't documented. You could create some crazy effects that nobody will be able to help you with.
Not sure why you'd say that.... That is how they're designed to be used. Those are opto-isolated inputs. To make them work, you have to drive current through the LED from DIR+ to DIR-, as indicated in the legend next to the connections on the driver. This can be done by either tying DIR+ to +5V, and grounding DIR-, or by tying DIR- to GND, then pulling DIR+ to +5V. In most cases, as apparently here, DIR+ will be tied to +5V, and the BOB will drive DIR- to GND using a TTL gate or transistor. For testing purposes, there is absolutely nothing wrong with disconnecting the wire from DIR-. then forcing DIR- to GND as I suggested, and it will certainly not create any "crazy effects".
The signal in Mach3 must be configured as ActiveLow. If the Tormach Mach3 configures those signals as ActiveHigh, that could explain the whole problem, as the way Mach3 drives the DIR signal, if the polarity is set wrong, the steip pulse can occur when DIR is in the wrong state.
Regards,
Ray L.
Re: Using new 3 phase driver as cheaper Tormach Series 3 replacement - Making progres
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SCzEngrgGroup
Not sure why you'd say that....
Sorry, I should have expressed myself a little more clearly. Swampdonkey wrote "Should I be using the ENABLE screw terminals with the 5V common feeding all positive terminals, the GND of the ENA connected to the GND of the main stepper/motor DC power" and I didn't want him to end up LEAVING some kind of connection between signal and power grounds. Now that can cause crazy effects that we won't be able to help him with later. Obviously there's no problem temporarily pulling the input down for a test.
@SwampDonkey: I found the table in a newer manual, I searched for it in a couple of different versions earlier but maybe they were all too old - dunno - I'll check it out again tomorrow (for my own sanity).
I've also found out a couple of other things. The pin-outs from Robert obviously refer to the connecter pins at the driver. I just looked at the X driver connector and realised that pin 1 on the controller board end (marked red) is NOT pin 1 on the IDC connector of the Tormach driver. The 6 wires are reversed! Wire 1 from the controller connects to pin 6 on the Tormach driver. Pin 2 on the controller ("direction" according to the manual) connects to pin 5 on the driver (D- according to Roberts table). The 2 tables therefore do correlate.
I also pulled the connector from the X drive to verify that 5V was indeed on the expected pin. I've never checked which buffer chips are used on the controller board but I was expecting the outputs to only pull down. Fortunately they also pull up so we can do a direction test on the connection. If you jog in one direction the voltage on DIR- should go up to 5V, jogging in the other direction should pull the voltage down to 0V. You can do this test with the connector out of the drive to test the output of the controller board. If that works ok, plug it into the board and you should see a similar voltage swing - maybe it won't come quite down to zero but that's not unusual. In which case the direction input would appear to be receiving the correct signals.
Step
Re: Using new 3 phase driver as cheaper Tormach Series 3 replacement - Making progres
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SCzEngrgGroup
Not sure why you'd say that.... That is how they're designed to be used. Those are opto-isolated inputs. To make them work, you have to drive current through the LED from DIR+ to DIR-, as indicated in the legend next to the connections on the driver. This can be done by either tying DIR+ to +5V, and grounding DIR-, or by tying DIR- to GND, then pulling DIR+ to +5V. In most cases, as apparently here, DIR+ will be tied to +5V, and the BOB will drive DIR- to GND using a TTL gate or transistor. For testing purposes, there is absolutely nothing wrong with disconnecting the wire from DIR-. then forcing DIR- to GND as I suggested, and it will certainly not create any "crazy effects".
The signal in Mach3 must be configured as ActiveLow. If the Tormach Mach3 configures those signals as ActiveHigh, that could explain the whole problem, as the way Mach3 drives the DIR signal, if the polarity is set wrong, the steip pulse can occur when DIR is in the wrong state.
Regards,
Ray L.
So far as I can tell, have a single 5V+ and a single ground in the group of 7 wires that originally went to the plug. So far ive been assuming that Tormach is using Active-low, but only because I saw the "5V common", which made me think it should be daisy-chained to the other + screw terminal as well.
I serously doubt its the board, its new and a replacement. Not only that, but the first one I had had nothing wrong with it. The guy helping me wire it forgot to mention something critical and the board was blamed. Also, these drives are brand new, it cant be them. One thing Im starting to suspect is that either its wired Active high or the 26 pin legend is wrong.
Cheers, and thanks for the input, as always!
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Re: Using new 3 phase driver as cheaper Tormach Series 3 replacement - Making progres
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SwampDonkey
I serously doubt its the board, its new and a replacement. Not only that, but the first one I had had nothing wrong with it. The guy helping me wire it forgot to mention something critical and the board was blamed. Also, these drives are brand new, it cant be them. One thing Im starting to suspect is that either its wired Active high or the 26 pin legend is wrong.
Don't rule out any of the components until you've proven that they are ok.
The trace below shows step pulses at the top and the direction input at the bottom. You can see that the level only changes state when the direction changes, and not for each step pulse. If only the direction sense was wrong (active high <-> active low) the motor would just run in the opposite direction, but it would change direction.
Attachment 245584
Despite my original confusion (sorry!) I now believe that the Tormach pin-outs listed in the "newer" :) versions of the manual are correct. You reported that the motor was indeed moving which would imply that the step pulses and the 5V do appear to be connected correctly. Did you check to see if the state of the direction input changed when you tried to jog backwards and forwards? This would be a good place to start in order to narrow down the cause. If the direction levels are ok then the problem is somewhere after the measuring point. If the levels are not ok the problem is somewhere before the measuring point. Be sure to first remove the drive connector from the drive to eliminate any possible effects from the drive input.
Step
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Re: Using new 3 phase driver as cheaper Tormach Series 3 replacement - Making progres
Im curious as to a good way to test the drive without the drive connector?
Anyhow, this is what I've found so far.
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Re: Using new 3 phase driver as cheaper Tormach Series 3 replacement - Making progres
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SwampDonkey
Im curious as to a good way to test the drive without the drive connector?
Well you can, but that's not what I was getting at.
So, at great expense, I created a video that I hope might help you. The measurements I'm talking about start at 2:15.
Connect a standard Stepper Driver to a Tormach PCNC Mill - YouTube
That's probably much clearer than trying to explain it in words.
Hope that helps.
Step
Re: Using new 3 phase driver as cheaper Tormach Series 3 replacement - Making progres
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TurboStep
Turbo, you're one hell of a nice guy. That, was very generous and helpful for you to make a video like this. I dont have much else to add yet besides my gratitude.
Ok, so I have a power supply thats damn near identical to the Tormachs- same capacitor and all. Im going to test the drives using this mock up with a BOB and 3 phase stepper ive detached from one of the axis. I suppose I'll use the Tormach controller with its version of Mach as well. I'll be able to test the drives and surely learn something about the wiring of these drives as it pertains to the Tormach signals and pinout.
Im not home now and may only have sporadic access to the machine, but I'll get it done ASAP. Im almost tempted to send a drive and my ribbon cable to one of you much more experienced guys as im sure you see this as a much more straightforward wiring issue than I do.
Again, thank you all!
I'll report back after running Turbos test and assembling the test rig.
Re: Using new 3 phase driver as cheaper Tormach Series 3 replacement - Making progres
Hey again, and thanks or the wealth of info so far, from everyone. One more question (an easy one):
What are these terminal connectors called and what is the tool used to secure them to the individual wires? I have some, but cant remember where they came from and using pliers to clamp them in place usually just kinda mutilates them. I'd love to know the name of the connectors and the tool used to secure them.
Thanks again,
Everyone
Re: Using new 3 phase driver as cheaper Tormach Series 3 replacement - Making progres
Technical white paper videos by Tstep
Well done! I always learn from your examples and answers.
You understand the machine well.
Sd
Are you asking about wire terminal crimp tool?
md
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Re: Using new 3 phase driver as cheaper Tormach Series 3 replacement - Making progres
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SwampDonkey
What are these terminal connectors called and what is the tool used to secure them to the individual wires?
You talking about crimping terminal pins like in a molex connector?
Something like these "mini fit jr" terminals? Or maybe "Standard .062" Pin and Socket Crimp" terminals? (different size pin and socket connectors, you probably want the latter).
Attachment 246930
Always good to have the right tool for the job. Like mountain dew said, a "terminal crimper". Also sometimes called a "pin crimper". Sometimes called a "pin and socket crimper". Sometimes called a "molex style crimper" (be careful: molex makes normal ring or barrel crimpers which is not what you want).
Couple important points:
1. Don't buy one that isn't a ratcheting tool
2. Buy one that covers the wire gauge specifically of what terminals you are crimping. Like 20-4 or 24-28 AWG. If the crimping tools also covers 16 gauge or larger, you a re looking at the wrong tool.
3. Don't buy a cheap crimping tool
Something like this (although you pay a huge premium for the molex name, unless you find it on ebay), designed to crimp 18-24 AWG wire (for smaller terminals, you can buy crimpers...or dies for crimpers... covering 24-28AWG wires):
Molex Connector Part Number - 63819-1300
Look for a pin crimper that does double crimps (both wire and insulator) in one go. This would be an example of what NOT to buy:
SN 28B Pin Crimping Crimper Tool 2 54mm 3 96mm 28 18AWG 0 1 1 0MM² for Dupont | eBay
Re: Using new 3 phase driver as cheaper Tormach Series 3 replacement - Making progres
He tmarks,
Yes, apparently its called a "bootlace ferule crimping tool". It gives your wire ends a nice tight terminal connection with the bell-shaped insulator. I see these terminal connections all the time, including in lots of CNC applications. It crushes the hollow tube containing the conducting wire end in a neat little plug.
Re: Using new 3 phase driver as cheaper Tormach Series 3 replacement - Making progres
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SwampDonkey
What are these terminal connectors called...
Where I come from they're called "Aderendhülsen" - that probably help you too much :) but you've already figured out that they are some kind of ferule.
I bought this nice, reasonably priced tool off Ebay
HSC8 6 6 Self Adjustable Crimping Tools FOR Cable END Sleeves AU | eBay
there are cheaper tools out there but this one makes cool hexagonal crimps. Its just a shame that they also get mutilated when they're screwed into the terminal block!
Step
