New Titan TM25V mill advice needed please!

Hi all,

I recently bought a brand new Titan TM25V Mill from Titan Machinery off ebay last month with the plan to convert to CNC eventually after making all the brackets etc manually (have bought all the steppers, drivers, etc already :D ). The mill turned up a week later in it's crate. Opened the crate and the first thing I noticed is a ~6mm chip on the corner of the top right Z axis dovetail. (See photos). The crate wasn't damaged at all. Quite a few chips in the paint finish but that's the least of my concerns... It's badged TM25V (no serial number stamped on it or DOM either??? Bit strange but o well...) pulled the drawbar cap off that has half the "teeth" cracked off, the missing teeth weren't in the top casing so it was like this from factory...) I undid the SHC screws to take the top casing off to check for the missing teeth and look at the nice new belt pulleys etc, no teeth, no pulleys, no belt? Ok so it turns out it's actually a TM20VL with the gear driven head not belt driven but with a 1000w brushless motor and R8 spindle... Hmmm... Ok... Confused much?

Finally got a chance to sling it onto my bench with my engine hoist to check it out on Father's Day (yep dad gets a day off he he he) to clean it up a bit and have a look/check over etc.

There are a few tools/parts missing out of the tool box according to the tooling list in the TM25V manual that came with the mill;

All these are missing;

- 22mm-24mm double end spanner
- 3mm & 6mm Hex socket wrenches (Allen keys)
- 2 x M10 "T" Screws
- 2 x M10 Washers
- 2 x M10 Nuts

There is a bit of rust on the R8 Drill chuck arbor (but nothing a bit of wire brush can fix I am guessing, still yet to clean that yet though...)

The lower Z axis cover accordion attachment plate is rusty...

Then I tried to install one of my R8 7/16" 20TPI ER25 collet chucks so I can use my tramming tool to check the tram, runout, etc... It wouldn't thread up at all so wont stay in? The chucks shoulder is hard up against the spindle so it was located properly, doesn't seem to be a locating pin at all... So WTF is going on? Then I tried an R8 Collet... No luck either... WTF??? Few chucks and collets later, I can only "grab" half a thread on one of my R8 ER32 Collet chucks, the rest won't grab at all, so I can't use any tooling or tram the machine or even check anything is straight :s (the R8 7/16" 20TPI chucks, collets, arbors, tooling, etc are from Hare & Forbes, CTC tooling, Glacern, etc). So I pulled the draw bar out and it measures ~192mm from the end of the thread to the "shoulder". With the drawbar out of the machine I tried threading it into the chucks, they thread in fine so the drawbar thread is 7/16" 20TPI and not the problem. My conclusion is the draw bar is ~18mm too short. Hmmm righto...

Then loosened the gib locks and checked the handles. The Z axis handle is sloppy as f$&@... Gibs are adjusted as well as possible but the play in the bearing is "huge" (side to side play) and I'm getting 0.54mm backlash according to the dial. Pulled the top cover off (looked a the heap of "car bog" on the back casting on the Z "tower" hmmm yeah righto...) the top of the Z axis to check for a backlash adjustment. I can't see anything to adjust the backlash? Ok so it's a dodgy sloppy bearing in the Z axis handle...

Emailed Stuart from Titan machinery again about it, he said he will send out another draw bar. Got another email from him yesterday with a photo of the new drawbar asking if it's the right one and if he needed 12mm taken off the shoulder with his lathe but with didn't give me measurements on its length. Looks the same but I replied and asked what the length was as it might be right length already. No reply. I then had a look at my drawbar again and realised if he takes 12mm off the shoulder I won't be able to tighten the draw bar as the 8mm square tensioner only pokes out of the nut 7.5mm. Sent him another email stating that info as it wouldn't work if he did take the 12mm off. No reply.

So I went back to my workshop to have a look at the rest of the machine, oil the ways with Vactra #2 Wayoil, check the rest of the dovetails etc. I oiled the tables X axis dovetails and wound it out to the left oiling the leadscrew as I went, then I noticed this big hole/casting defect air pocket that goes through the front X axis dovetail on the table (see photos). It's about 20mm long x 15-20mm high and goes right through to the base of the dove tail where it "pokes" out in two. This is a major defect and a major concern for a brand new mill no matter where it's made from. How the hell did this get through any kind of QC is beyond me and why wasn't it checked at the Titan factory before sending it out?! This is a major defect.

This is as far as I am going with this machine. I haven't pulled the table off to check the other sides of the dovetails or any of the Y or Z axis ones either but this machine is a being more hassle than it's worth so far for a brand new machine. This is a major defect and I wouldn't have bought the machine if these faults were listed or even pictured. I have wasted too much time on this machine to only get this far (which is nowhere...) so it has to go back. It's definitely not a brand new machine that has a possibility of ever being "accurate" (unless it's melted back down with a few extra pounds of metal to make up for all the casting voids and defects and re cast that is...), it's one that shouldn't have left either factory at all. Not happy and I have wasted quite bit of my time on this...

What do you all think?

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Cheers for the help!

Anyone???

well I think you already came up with your own answer, get that thing warrantied out or refunded. given the level of pain you already dealt with i'd say get refunded. I hope you did not give positive feedback already...

Normally there is some expectation of cleanup needed before you even start the motor, but with chips and cracks and missing teeth and missing tools, there is no sense in continuing with it; Unless you are stuck with it.... On the plus side, we all now know not to purchase a machine from Titan Machinery on eBay.

Thanks for your thoughts Dracozny. I should note that Titan Machinery is actually a company in Australia (Titan Machinery | Mini Lathes | Metal Lathe | Sieg and Bench Lathe) but also sells on ebay.

I am trying to get a replacement as I do need the machine, what concerns me though that when I bought it the description said;

(Quote) "MILLING MACHINE TM20VL brushless DC Motor(NEW!)

MILLING MACHINE TM20V

VARIABLE SPEED NOW WITH BRUSHLESS DC MOTOR!

Description

These TM20VL mills could possibly be the best small hobby milling machine we have seen here at TITAN MACHINERY .It has a variable speed BRUSHLESS DC motor that offer higher torque than normal brushed dc motors. Another sign of quality is adjustable tapered gibs not tiny adjustment screws (Tapered gibs are a must for a rigid machine!).There are no plastic handles on this mill only satin finished aluminium .Comes standard with digital depth gauge and self ejecting draw bar (no more whacking to get your tooling out).This would make a excellent mill for somebody that after a small heavier duty machine as it now come with steel gears in the head small increase in noise but 10 fold increase in reliability as other small mills have nylon gears that do fail.

NOW with R8 spindles Taper

with Free Stand!!!"

Yet the pictures on ebay clearly shows a Titan TM25V... I questioned this before buying ad he said that it is the TM25V that is pictured...

After buying it, paying $375AUD freight, receiving it, then finding all the faults/defects/missing tools/complete crap and the fact I can't even test/tram it as the draw bar is too short, I am wanting to have the mill replaced with one that is "fit for purpose" with solid castings (if a mill doesn't have solid castings, especially on the dovetails which make it a mill, it's just a drill press at most and not a mill), the high price I paid for it ($1490AUD plus freight) compared to other same machines that he sold recently for far less (~$1100 + freight) my last response from Stuart at Titan Machinery was this;

(Email quote) "These machines were old stock and prices to clear made at previous factory they are ok for some hobby guy if he need to drill some holes mill a few slots etc they are like man other cheaper machines."

So $1490 for a (P.O.S.) "machine" that can "drill some holes mill a few slots" with terrible castings that will cause the "machine" to wear out in no time we might as well pay a machinist to "drill some holes mill a few slots" for a quarter of the price.

I contacted the ACCC to find out what my rights are in this situation. They said as it is a "major problem"/"major defects" and these major defects were not listed in the sale description which if they were I would have defiantly not bought this machine, it is the full responsibility of Titan Machinery (as they are a registered company in Australia selling to the Australian public) to replace the machine with new one that meets the standards of milling machines (eg. solid castings) but he is saying I need to pay for return shipping and he will refund the cost of the machine, ie $1490, but not freight either way, so Titan expects me to pay $750AUD for both way freight on a machine that shouldn't have been sold or sent in the first place!?

Stuart has told me over the phone that the factory these were made in were (quote) "dodgy and unreliable" and has switched factory's, but this was said after I payed for and received the mill (which shouldn't have been sold, especially as "NEW!" or "best small hobby milling machine".) and said "well that's what you get with Chinese machines". I didn't buy it from China, I bought it from an Australian company expecting a reasonable (brand new defect free) machine for the price I paid and it's up to the importer to check these faults out before selling them onto their customers. Everyone would at least expect solid castings on a mill yeah?

So this is what you get for trying to support the "local" company's and help our economy rather than just buying direct from China for a quarter of the price. Not good ethics at all.

Am I going over board on this? Or are these major casting defect problems/voids/holes acceptable? I am quite pissed off as I have heard some good reports about their machinery etc but from their amazing awesome write ups on their website and ebay only to receive this crappy machine followed by him pretty much saying that "well they are just crap machines and that's what I should expect from them". Not impressed at all.

What has happened to company's sticking by their products?

Sorry for the rant but I am pissed off... :/ was going to buy a couple of lathes off him too but see how this pans out... If this is the standard of their machines/salesmanship/customer service, $$&@)(\)?

Cheers

My experiences with Ebay, resulted in usually me getting 100% of my money back via Paypal, and the Company just telling me to keep their junk because it wasn't worth it to them to try and resell it. File the complaint and get your $$ back, generally takes a week or so. document everything said and if possible record any phone conversations you have with them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dracozny

My experiences with Ebay, resulted in usually me getting 100% of my money back via Paypal, and the Company just telling me to keep their junk because it wasn't worth it to them to try and resell it. File the complaint and get your $$ back, generally takes a week or so. document everything said and if possible record any phone conversations you have with them.

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Exactly this. If you file a claim with eBay immediately the seller will be pretty much obligated to accept a return, shipping paid. eBay is one of the safest places to buy something anymore, they ALWAYS side with the buyer. Even if the seller falls off the face of the earth, they will reimburse you personally.

I am having a problem with a seller right now. EBay has bent over backwards to make sure I am pleased with the transaction. The seller won't respond to me however has sent a shipping number thru them. As of this moment the tracking number isn't valid. I will give it a day or two and then see if it shows up. I have faith EBay will back me either way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cowanrg

Exactly this. If you file a claim with eBay immediately the seller will be pretty much obligated to accept a return, shipping paid. eBay is one of the safest places to buy something anymore, they ALWAYS side with the buyer. Even if the seller falls off the face of the earth, they will reimburse you personally.

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That is not entirely true. Many E-Bay sellers have a "buyer pays return shipping" policy, even if the product is clearly defective and/or not what you ordered. I've learned the hard way E-Bay will support that policy. Read the sellers returns policy before buying!

Regards,
Ray L.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SCzEngrgGroup

That is not entirely true. Many E-Bay sellers have a "buyer pays return shipping" policy, even if the product is clearly defective and/or not what you ordered. I've learned the hard way E-Bay will support that policy. Read the sellers returns policy before buying!

Regards,
Ray L.

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Yeah they did have that on the listing but I didn't pay for a "boat anchor", I paid for a milling machine and these major defects were not listed in the description, if they would have been I would not have bought the machine at all. I payed for a "NEW!" Mill that is in brand new fully working defect free condition, that's not what I received at all.

Here is what the ACCC has to say about this;

Repair, replace, refund | ACCC

This "machine" (?) has major defects and shouldn't have been sold at all as a "NEW!" Machine. Titan should have checked the machine before listing it on ebay and clearly stated that it is "old stock" and taken photos of ALL defects. This machine is useless and especially for the high price I paid for it.

Here is another of the same that sold in July by the same company for far less than what I paid. I don't know the condition on that machine but he uses the same photos for every listing and not photos of the actual machine you are buying;

Milling Machine TM20VL Brushless DC Motor NEW | eBay

Plus the fact that the listing clearly states "TM20VL" and the machine photos and actual machines are tagged "TM25V". The one I received doesn't even have a serial number or DOM stamped on it where it states "serial no" "date of manufacture" FFS. This is dodgy...

Keep on eBay about it. Anything longer than a week and you should get concerned and start calling eBay or escalate the claim.

I just looked at the ebay listing.. one thing that strikes me is...

VARIABLE SPEED NOW WITH BRUSHLESS DC MOTOR!

Does it indeed have a brushless DC motor ?

The other thing is.. check the travel and table dimensions against the machine you received and see if they match up.. If not.. then you have grounds for false advertising.. Just something else to nail them with.

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Originally Posted by Over Engineered

Yeah they did have that on the listing but I didn't pay for a "boat anchor", I paid for a milling machine and these major defects were not listed in the description, if they would have been I would not have bought the machine at all. I payed for a "NEW!" Mill that is in brand new fully working defect free condition, that's not what I received at all.

Here is what the ACCC has to say about this;

Repair, replace, refund | ACCC

This "machine" (?) has major defects and shouldn't have been sold at all as a "NEW!" Machine. Titan should have checked the machine before listing it on ebay and clearly stated that it is "old stock" and taken photos of ALL defects. This machine is useless and especially for the high price I paid for it.

Here is another of the same that sold in July by the same company for far less than what I paid. I don't know the condition on that machine but he uses the same photos for every listing and not photos of the actual machine you are buying;

Milling Machine TM20VL Brushless DC Motor NEW | eBay

Plus the fact that the listing clearly states "TM20VL" and the machine photos and actual machines are tagged "TM25V". The one I received doesn't even have a serial number or DOM stamped on it where it states "serial no" "date of manufacture" FFS. This is dodgy...

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Over Engineered, did you open a "product not as described" case? If so, just saying that it's a different model is enough to immediately initiate a refund with eBay. This is their most sensitive 'issue' you can file. It immediately escalates it and basically the seller has one week to initiate a refund, and if they don't eBay personally investigates it, and nearly always sides with the buyer.