Re: Tormach 1100MX vs SYIL X7 2020
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Advil
at the $25k range... do dovetail ways and 2hp still make sense? It might for you, but think hard.
.
To be brutally honest, they don't make sense at $10000. Small mill worthy linear rails cost $1000-$1400us a set to the factory, and reduce the price of the casting as is doesnt need hardening, grinding, turcite, etc. So call is $1500-$2000 retail on a tormach sized machine...
GOOD beefy hardened ground and scraped dovetails with turcite B like on an old deckel can be better than mid grade small linear guides. People always love to talk about the rigidity and damping... but the tormach does not have good dovetails by any stretch of the imagination. The actually are one of its weakest points even when compared to other cheaper hobby machines, forget a haas.
Re: Tormach 1100MX vs SYIL X7 2020
You can buy pretty clean used Mori mills for like $40k. Way more machine than a comparable Haas.
It's all a bit of a slippery slope.
Re: Tormach 1100MX vs SYIL X7 2020
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CL_MotoTech
You can buy pretty clean used Mori mills for like $40k. Way more machine than a comparable Haas.
It's all a bit of a slippery slope.
3 phase, 8000-12000lbs
otherwise, id agree there all sorts of great used machines, but most of them are simply not an option. the TM series is viable because its single phase.
My personal choice is a brother TC machine with a new control for well under 10k. But if you just want a ready to run machine that fits in a non industrial space, your options are very limited.
Re: Tormach 1100MX vs SYIL X7 2020
When you are dropping $40k you can afford a phase converter. The TM0 is 4500lbs, might as well get twice the machine for your cash.
Re: Tormach 1100MX vs SYIL X7 2020
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ihavenofish
3 phase, 8000-12000lbs
otherwise, id agree there all sorts of great used machines, but most of them are simply not an option. the TM series is viable because its single phase.
My personal choice is a brother TC machine with a new control for well under 10k. But if you just want a ready to run machine that fits in a non industrial space, your options are very limited.
This. Not a lot of industrial machines fit under a standard garage door and operate inside an 8' ceiling on residential power and be moveable by a couple motivated people and a pallet jack.
If you want to run a business making parts, get a space, call up HAAS, they'll finance anyone with a pulse and drop a machine on your floor. Stop making payments and they'll come take it away again.
If you want a hobby machine it's a different story. At late-model used-car prices a whole lot of factors come into play. A older F250 is a lot more truck than a new Ranger, but people still buy both.
Re: Tormach 1100MX vs SYIL X7 2020
Darn, based on the title, I was hoping there would be some info on the SYIL in here. Very intriguing looking machine.
Re: Tormach 1100MX vs SYIL X7 2020
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CL_MotoTech
You can buy pretty clean used Mori mills for like $40k. Way more machine than a comparable Haas.
It's all a bit of a slippery slope.
An old running mori mv40 can be had for peanuts and will still out machine a new haas in the same class .
They all have their advantages and disadvantages . Haas builds a reliable machine with a good price point , but they are also at the bottom of the barrel when it comes to industrial machines . Options quickly add up in cost , and the last time I looked an m19 was even considered optional . They also have the worst service of anyone that I've ever seen , and their "techs" are monkeys who get walked through installs with the use of a cell phone .
We had a blown spindle on a super mini which took over a week to get , vs matsuura who I've seen ship a spindle from Japan to Canada and had it installed within 24 hrs .
A tm3p was the least impressive mill that I've ever worked on (excluding hobby grade) , but they are also a " tool room " mill and they are meant as support machines for making fixtures or whatnot . Industrially they are turds , except they provide a low cost option for start up companies , or , hobby guys who have a lot of spare cash in their pockets . Then again a guy still has to hope that he is one of the few who has a local service guy who knows what he is doing because that gets expensive fast . Fortunately they don't break down very often
The hobby grade mills have a lot of advantages in the fact that they hold a small footprint , require less power and they are low cost . Plus a guy can run many more hobby mills in a small shop in comparison to a larger mill . I look at them as toys , play with them till they are broken then move on to the next one .
The biggest complaint I am seeing with the new 1100's is the price , but my question is does a hobby guy really need all that . A basic 1100 with a stand is 12k and a guy can buy 3 for the price of that decked out mill . Does a hobby guy really need tool changers and all the options , if a guy doesn't physically do anything then it really isn't much of a hobby . It's like building a hot rod as a hobby and hiring a mechanic to do all the work . I keep 5 mills running and every tool is hand bombed , if everything is timed right there is little disruption . Tapping off the mill is easy , a drill press and a tapping head 400 bux
I look at the new full load tormachs as being aimed at schools and engineers , and not as much hobbyists . They are good competitors against the haas office mills and they'll blow away that idiotic haas setup that looks like a cheap chinese router
Based on price of 35k I think tormach has gotten a bit greedy , and if I had to chose between that and a tm then the tm would win
Re: Tormach 1100MX vs SYIL X7 2020
Quote:
We had a blown spindle on a super mini which took over a week to get , vs matsuura who I've seen ship a spindle from Japan to Canada and had it installed within 24 hrs .
How much did you pay for that Matsuura service, though? If your business is all about the specialty parts, and the cost of the machine is a small fraction of the overall cost, that kind of service makes total sense. And if the machine is two million bucks, and you're paying 10% financing on that, it would be worth it to avoid the downtime, too...
(No, really, I'm quite interested: how much was the Matsuura spindle replacement service? It would be useful to know!)
Re: Tormach 1100MX vs SYIL X7 2020
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jwatte
How much did you pay for that Matsuura service, though? If your business is all about the specialty parts, and the cost of the machine is a small fraction of the overall cost, that kind of service makes total sense. And if the machine is two million bucks, and you're paying 10% financing on that, it would be worth it to avoid the downtime, too...
(No, really, I'm quite interested: how much was the Matsuura spindle replacement service? It would be useful to know!)
do you think it is ok to wait a week for a spindle on a lesser cost industrial machine than a more expensive one when service charges are going to be comparable . A weeks worth of lost revenue can't be made back , and regaining lost time can be difficult for a company that is running at full capacity . Down time is down time and it's not recoverable
the spindle at the time was 15k , I'm not sure what the service charge was because I was an employee and that wasn't my problem . But , the service charge would have been no different than haas , mori or any other significant machine distributor .
If I recall correctly the mill was roughly 230k and not 2m . Regardless matsuura immediately had that spindle on a plane from Japan and it was installed within 24 hours . Haas was a week to receive the spindle and the company spent top dollar to have some incompetent twit install it .
For the most part a customer doesn't deal directly with the machine company and they deal through the distributors . The customer is at the mercy of the distributor but the distributor is also at the mercy of the manufacturer
Re: Tormach 1100MX vs SYIL X7 2020
If the price is the same, clearly I'll take the 24 hour turnaround :-)
If I'm a prototype/development shop, downtime costs have to be weighted against the budget that a cost center has to live with. (R&D is always "cost," never "future profit," for some mysterious reason.) So, if the Haas has the lower cost, the guy with the spreadsheet will approve.
AAAnyway. I'm lucky that I'm just dealing with my own machine in my own garage at my own time, in that sense. FWIW, Tormach makes it very clear on their website that they don't even have schmucks-with-phones in the area, and you'll get to do the service yourself, so everything comes on a scale ...
Re: Tormach 1100MX vs SYIL X7 2020
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jwatte
I
AAAnyway. I'm lucky that I'm just dealing with my own machine in my own garage at my own time, in that sense. FWIW, Tormach makes it very clear on their website that they don't even have schmucks-with-phones in the area, and you'll get to do the service yourself, so everything comes on a scale ...
I'm in a similar boat and I work out of my garage with 5 mills and a lathe , except I retail the parts I make . The last time I needed a tormach part it took a week to get an answer to the part I wanted (call don't email) , then another week to get the part . My novakon is basically an orphan so it can easily get worse than the 1 week haas spindle , but it is still unacceptable for an industrial machine
The nice thing about the tormach is that there is no rocket science to repairing them .
Re: Tormach 1100MX vs SYIL X7 2020
Quote:
Originally Posted by
maker of things
Darn, based on the title, I was hoping there would be some info on the SYIL in here. Very intriguing looking machine.
What do you want to know?
Re: Tormach 1100MX vs SYIL X7 2020
I am curious to see a comparison between the mills, tech specs aside, how is it to use? I guess that's a little tricky since it looks like they have at least 4 controller options (which one is best). But for me that is a big deal. On many parts I spend more time programming than machining so the "user experience" is a big deal. I'm concerned that there doesn't seem to be much of a user base so how difficult is it to get help if you don't know how to do something? What if you need a replacement part? How difficult to implement upgrades (like 4th axis)?
Besides that I was just kinda bummed that the thread turn into the usual why not buy something else when the thread is specific to comparing 2 machines. I frequently go back through old threads to find info on machines and it is unhelpful when the discussion strays so far from the title (at least for me, YMMV).
Re: Tormach 1100MX vs SYIL X7 2020
[QUOTE=maker of things;2466564]I am curious to see a comparison between the mills, tech specs aside, how is it to use? I guess that's a little tricky since it looks like they have at least 4 controller options (which one is best). But for me that is a big deal. On many parts I spend more time programming than machining so the "user experience" is a big deal. /QUOTE]
This is why I bought a Tormach. I hesitated on it because of all the, just get a haas, just get a used this, just get a second hand that, stuff that's out there. Ultimately it came down to my local college having a public maker space that included a pcnc440. I came from a heavy engineering and cad background but with zero cnc, zero cam, and very very little machining. It took me all of 2-3 hours to get the machine powered up, load the sample program, and make (wood) chips using nothing but the owners manual. The guy running the maker space barely looked over his shoulder at me except when I asked him to come over and check my work because I was about to hit the scary cycle start button. That immediate success and incredibly intuitive interface sold me on the machine. Two years later I'm thinking I should really learn how to operate the Haas's and Doosans I have access to through my employer so I can utilize them when needed for larger projects but I'm still very happy I went with the Tormach. If I had to do it again, I would still buy tormach, even with the higher prices putting them closer to everything else, just for that relatively easy learning curve. The other major benefit to me as a complete n00b was the fact that the machines aren't really capable of hurting themselves. In my career I've watched experienced operators and programmers crash $50k-500k machines leaving the company with repair bills that would pay for a tormach. Even at my level today I make stupid mistakes due to inattentiveness, impatience, or just plain old inexperience. In every case I break something but so far the worst I've done is scrap a part, destroy a tool, or smash the tip of my haimer. My machine has yet (knock on wood) to suffer any kind of damage that has led me to replace parts. Yes, I would like more hp and faster/longer travels, but I'm not willing to stare at my busted machine for months at a time because I did something dumb, broke it, and can't afford to fix it.
Re: Tormach 1100MX vs SYIL X7 2020
Quote:
Originally Posted by
maker of things
I am curious to see a comparison between the mills, tech specs aside, how is it to use? I guess that's a little tricky since it looks like they have at least 4 controller options (which one is best). But for me that is a big deal. On many parts I spend more time programming than machining so the "user experience" is a big deal. I'm concerned that there doesn't seem to be much of a user base so how difficult is it to get help if you don't know how to do something? What if you need a replacement part? How difficult to implement upgrades (like 4th axis)?
Besides that I was just kinda bummed that the thread turn into the usual why not buy something else when the thread is specific to comparing 2 machines. I frequently go back through old threads to find info on machines and it is unhelpful when the discussion strays so far from the title (at least for me, YMMV).
Well I'll be the first to admit that the choices are plentiful. Most if they are looking to run production parts are almost certainly going to settle on the Siemens control for the ease at which support is available for them. The other controls are either Asian market specific or being used to hit a price point as the Siemens is usually the most expensive option. If you are looking for conversational programming at the machine I think the Siemens is the only choice currently. My LNC control appears to have some form of it but I have never gotten it to produce useful G-Code. Not a big deal to me as a hobbyist. In terms of getting help it has been there when I needed it. The Syil folks that are US based have always been responsive when I have inquired about something and they were even willing to help in facilitating the transaction of the lightly used machine I was purchasing from the original owner. Technical support has been a Skype chat away and has always been handled well even across the language barrier and differing time zones. Nothing I am doing needs a "right now" answer however so take that as I can be a little more patient than perhaps someone using it to produce income would be.
I haven't need any parts up to this point so I can't say with certainty how quickly those things could or would happen. I've seen a couple folks in the user group add options to their machine and all of them appear to have gotten any support they needed to accomplish it successfully.
Usability is a hard one for me to speak with any authority about. I bought a used converted BF20 running Mach 3 to get started. I was a bit concerned about moving to a different controller but in truth found the LNC control on my Syil to be very easy to get going on. That being said I don't program at the control. All my code comes out of Fusion 360. I may do some lite editing on the control but that's about it. Usually when I forget to change RPM or feed rate when doing the toolpaths. I did spend some time with the Siemens simulator while I was looking for machines and found it to be quite straight forward as well. I think as long as you grasp the concepts of CNC machining the controls aren't that hard to adjust to for most things. I guess it depends on how reliant you are on some feature sets.
In terms of machine specs my Syil X7 falls in the size range of an 1100MX but with more spindle and axis HP. I suspect it would be close to the of the same performance of the Mini-Mill. I'm not going to get into the semantics of how Haas rates it's spindle HP versus others. It's still more machine than I am an operator capable of exploiting it anyway. It's done everything I have asked it to do so far and most of the time isn't breaking a sweat doing it. Most importantly compared to my early Mach 3 experience is it does exactly what I tell it do.
Reason I chose it over the 1100 MX or Haas.
1. Linear ways - not a problem for Haas but makes the Tormach a no go.
2. Servos everywhere. - up until the MX was released nothing but steppers on the Tormach.
3. Price - I got it for a fraction of a new Haas or even the MX1100.
4. it fit in the foot print I could carve out for it.
The Tormach met the space and power requirements but failed on other features. The Haas would have been tight to get in , would have to have been an older machine and I was terrified of the nickel and diming I see in their pricing models.
I happen to luck out and find a Syil in the US with very low usage at a price that was half of either other option. That included the BT30 tool holders, vices and other consumables. Even after adding an additional 220v circuit to the garage, buying the rotary phase converter and getting everything in place I am still less than $26k into it. Now if I had to shell out $40k plus then the decisions I made might be different. If I was running a business they might be different. I put a lot of thought into this purchase and for a hobbyist I think I made the right calls.
Re: Tormach 1100MX vs SYIL X7 2020
[QUOTE=soofle616;2466582]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
maker of things
I am curious to see a comparison between the mills, tech specs aside, how is it to use? I guess that's a little tricky since it looks like they have at least 4 controller options (which one is best). But for me that is a big deal. On many parts I spend more time programming than machining so the "user experience" is a big deal. /QUOTE]
This is why I bought a Tormach. I hesitated on it because of all the, just get a haas, just get a used this, just get a second hand that, stuff that's out there. Ultimately it came down to my local college having a public maker space that included a pcnc440. I came from a heavy engineering and cad background but with zero cnc, zero cam, and very very little machining. It took me all of 2-3 hours to get the machine powered up, load the sample program, and make (wood) chips using nothing but the owners manual. The guy running the maker space barely looked over his shoulder at me except when I asked him to come over and check my work because I was about to hit the scary cycle start button. That immediate success and incredibly intuitive interface sold me on the machine. Two years later I'm thinking I should really learn how to operate the Haas's and Doosans I have access to through my employer so I can utilize them when needed for larger projects but I'm still very happy I went with the Tormach. If I had to do it again, I would still buy tormach, even with the higher prices putting them closer to everything else, just for that relatively easy learning curve. The other major benefit to me as a complete n00b was the fact that the machines aren't really capable of hurting themselves.
That's the exact reason I went with a small stepper driven machine to get started. I knew I would make mistakes and a machine without the real power needed to damage itself allows you to make those mistakes. Ultimately for most the second question is likely "How fast do I need to make something?" and that I believe is where the prospects of more expensive, faster and more capable machines come into play.
Re: Tormach 1100MX vs SYIL X7 2020
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kenny Duval
but with more spindle and axis HP. I suspect it would be close to the of the same performance of the Mini-Mill.
On the Syil site under the "blog" area they have a comparison between the x7 and the super mini mill and according to Syil the x7 has a 5.5 KW motor peak (not continuous) vs the Haas 11.2kw. My 1100mx has 1.49KW peak. The x7 literature leads me to believe it is a belt drive spindle, is yours Kenny?
When I did a price quote I noted that the Syil has an available 16 tool side changer! They also offer 5 axis trunnions which adds to the intrigue.
They list max tool diameter at .62" and max length at 3.9" which is a little worrying. I'm guessing those numbers may not be totally accurate?
I think I like that they offer such a wide range of controls. Mach3 stepper, Mach3 servo, Syil 3/4 axis, Syil 5 axis, LNC 6800 (ethercat), Siemens 808d, siemens 828 and fanuc Oi MF plus. I am not familiar with most of those controls, but wow. I say I think because It's great that the options are available, but that's a lot of extra work to research.
Most of the control and electronics are standard packages which to me means in 10 years the parts should still be available, or there will be a clear replacement option at least with Siemens and Fanuc. The linear rails are THK so those should be available. I would assume the ball screws would be similar. The spindle would be the thing then. If that is custom built, I would be weary that in 5 or 10 years it could be an issue.
Syil if you are listening, you need to up your marketing, A LOT! The links they offer to social media are pathetic. They show like 20 "posts" and several of the youtube videos are not there anymore already. They have "customer stories" and it looks like they tried to feature one person per country most of whose Instagram have zero machining content. Kevin Ellingson is on there which is encouraging. I mean he should have a pretty decent in with both Haas and Tormach but at his home is an x7.
Re: Tormach 1100MX vs SYIL X7 2020
Quote:
Originally Posted by
maker of things
On the Syil site under the "blog" area they have a comparison between the x7 and the super mini mill and according to Syil the x7 has a 5.5 KW motor peak (not continuous) vs the Haas 11.2kw. My 1100mx has 1.49KW peak. The x7 literature leads me to believe it is a belt drive spindle, is yours Kenny?
When I did a price quote I noted that the Syil has an available 16 tool side changer! They also offer 5 axis trunnions which adds to the intrigue.
They list max tool diameter at .62" and max length at 3.9" which is a little worrying. I'm guessing those numbers may not be totally accurate?
I think I like that they offer such a wide range of controls. Mach3 stepper, Mach3 servo, Syil 3/4 axis, Syil 5 axis, LNC 6800 (ethercat), Siemens 808d, siemens 828 and fanuc Oi MF plus. I am not familiar with most of those controls, but wow. I say I think because It's great that the options are available, but that's a lot of extra work to research.
Most of the control and electronics are standard packages which to me means in 10 years the parts should still be available, or there will be a clear replacement option at least with Siemens and Fanuc. The linear rails are THK so those should be available. I would assume the ball screws would be similar. The spindle would be the thing then. If that is custom built, I would be weary that in 5 or 10 years it could be an issue.
Syil if you are listening, you need to up your marketing, A LOT! The links they offer to social media are pathetic. They show like 20 "posts" and several of the youtube videos are not there anymore already. They have "customer stories" and it looks like they tried to feature one person per country most of whose Instagram have zero machining content. Kevin Ellingson is on there which is encouraging. I mean he should have a pretty decent in with both Haas and Tormach but at his home is an x7.
The spindle is a 1:1 belt driven set up. I'll have to go back through my research but the spindle cartridge is a third party item. I don't believe that Syil manufactures those in house. As long as there are folks around rebuilding spindles I wouldn't be to concerned. As long as someone can grind a taper and source replacement bearings it should be possible to get one rebuilt.
The up side to the control choices is pricing. The down side would be the need to have techs on staff with in depth knowledge of each control.
I don't worry much about the media presence but I can see the benefit of having good quality content for perspective buyers to review.
Re: Tormach 1100MX vs SYIL X7 2020
The trouble with spindle rebuild, in my experience is lead time. I do make my living from my machines so it's something I need to consider. I can live with days, but no mill for 3-5 weeks would pretty tough on my one man band.
Fanuc for sure and I would bet Siemens have plenty of support both in userbase and companies that parts/service both systems. Maybe all the pieces parts are user replaceable like Fadal?
I'm a long ways from pulling any triggers so there is plenty of time to research and find stuff like that out.
Besides that machine being a real possibility, more machines like this in the marketplace is good for us. I can't imagine the trend of "garage" machine shops either hobby or professional going away any time soon.
Re: Tormach 1100MX vs SYIL X7 2020
For anyone interested, the quote I got was for $51,221 with fanuc control, 16 tool side tool changer, 4th axis and wireless probing. No shipping price indicated.
- Series: Small CNC Mills - 7 Series
- Model: SYIL 7 Epoxy Granite CNC Mills
- Protection Enclosures: Full Enclosure
- Spindles: 10,000-rpm BT30
- Controllers: Fanuc 0i-MF Plus
- Tool Changers: 16-Pocket Carousel Arm Type
- Chip & Coolant Management:
- Rotary Tables: Servo Rotary Table 125 4X
- Probing: Wireless Probing System
- Accessories: Standard MPG Handwheel
