[G59]

What to expect from a Novakon. I guess that should of been my title.

I get the impression from reading the interesting Novakon forum, that buying a Novakon means modding it right out of the box.
mklotz, energdan and a few others, I wonder if they even made any chips before deciding to take it apart?
Don't get me wrong, if that was their original intent, from the get go, then that's fine,but these machines aren't toys. They should run right out of the box, and pay for themselves within a reasonable amount of time.
I wonder if the modders would of gone that far had they purchased a new HAAS or MORI?
It's making the Novakon look like a troublesome machine that turns into a project the minute you receive it at your door.

Congrats to all those who actually use their machines on a daily basis like Ray and Leeway. They prove to me that it can be a dependable little machine, and in depth maintenance may be required further down the road, which is normal.

Preventative maintenance is not normal on a new machine with '0' hours.

Just my thoughts.

[CROSSHATCH]

I had to go right into machining the moment I unpacked it and mounted it on my stand. Other than a basic cleaning and reaching areas to clean as to not remove the table etc. It was the right move. Since the time of the set-up, I have been able to get the basics of the machine with the parts I need.

There is no need to mod the Novakon, the option to have a machine that can be modded is an advantage, not a negative. I dialed my machine, did a basic break-in-process, but never opened up and modded the machine. My machine holds .001 and for my line of work, that's good for me. I one-shot lube every use and sometimes between "off" days and with only adjusting my gibs with proper torque specs. (actually, I changed the bolts for the gibs: my only mod).

After using it for a year now, I'm reaching that point where I will soon strip it down and add some of things to enhance my personal relationship with the machine but that is not something that needs to be done out of the box.

It was wise to first use it, love it and now add to its value.

Cheers,

-Jason

[G59]

Well, that's refreshing.
I'm not *****ing at anything, it's just that I'm looking at maybe buying one, but to do work with it and have it pay for itself within a couple years.
I have read many Tormach threads, but not one of taking the XY axis out before they even had a chance to run it.

[AUSTINMACHINING]

I haven't touched anything mechanically on mine. Replaced the bob early on, but Novakon has been responsive with support. If you read through the threads they have made a lot of improvements in the last year. Unless I'm mistaken, a HAAS is 37 to 50 k. $. A lot different from 17k.

[Hirudin]

I agree completely! A brand new machine shouldn't need to be rebuilt from day one. Not by the end-user at least.

Personally, if I were Novakon, I would strongly consider ramping up my pre-sale checkup. The people I've seen refurbishing their mills have basically done it by themselves and I believe in the case of mklotz70 at least, they're basically "winging it". Imagine how much more quickly a couple people who have experience and the luxury of preparation could do the same job.
(mklotz70's YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/bluehandsvideo)

Novakon or Tormach?
Buying a new machine isn't easy! I think we can all agree on that. Also, let's face it: cost is a major consideration. In terms of work envelope the Torus Pro is a lot more machine than the PCNC 1100. Tormach's web site is much better than Novakon's, there is a wealth of information available straight from Tormach. Their user-base also seems to be bigger so there are more options to get support from other users. In terms of indirect support, Tormach offers a lot more. On the other hand, the Torus Pro offers more in terms of performance (rapid speed, spindle speed). But it seems like Tormachs have fewer problems straight out of the box (I'm not sure this is the case, but it does seem that way to me). Tormach has a lot of accessories available, but their controller is more locked-down; plus, many of those accessories will work with Novakon machines as well.

Decisions, decisions, decisions... all these things must be weighed against each-other when choosing between these two brands.

I can say that, if I was given the same budget constraints, I would buy another Torus Pro over a PCNC 1100. The larger work area was (and still is) the clincher for me. If I was willing to spend twice as much money, I would probably get a Haas TM-1P.

[UniqueMachining]

A little perspective on these mod threads.

In energdan's case, I believe he bought the raw machine without motors electronics etc. It appears that his intent was to custom build a machine to his specific requirements.
The fact that he choose the Pro as his starting point speaks volumes.

In mklotz's case, perhaps he got a Friday machine. Probably a case of an assembler in China in too much of a hurry to get home or simply an oversight. Unfortunately a pre sale inspection
would not likely catch an internal flub.

I have owned a Series I,II and presently have a Pro. I did document a full teardown of the Series II that I purchased VERY used. It had been run with a visibly broken oil line, then left sitting idle in a wood shop for years. When I went to view it, there was an inch or four of sawdust in the wings. It definitely required rebuilding.

As to the Series I and the Pro, they were emjoyed out of the box.

I would venture to say that the bulk of the Novakon users do the same.

John

[SCzEngrgGroup]

What to expect from a Novakon. I guess that should of been my title.

I get the impression from reading the interesting Novakon forum, that buying a Novakon means modding it right out of the box.
mklotz, energdan and a few others, I wonder if they even made any chips before deciding to take it apart?
Don't get me wrong, if that was their original intent, from the get go, then that's fine,but these machines aren't toys. They should run right out of the box, and pay for themselves within a reasonable amount of time.
I wonder if the modders would of gone that far had they purchased a new HAAS or MORI?
It's making the Novakon look like a troublesome machine that turns into a project the minute you receive it at your door.

Congrats to all those who actually use their machines on a daily basis like Ray and Leeway. They prove to me that it can be a dependable little machine, and in depth maintenance may be required further down the road, which is normal.

Preventative maintenance is not normal on a new machine with '0' hours.

Just my thoughts.

I think you need to go back and read the ENTIRE thread on Dans machine, and Mikes, and any others you think are having to "mod" their machines right out of the box. Dan bought a bare mechanical assembly, with NO electronics, with the specific intent of completely disassembling it, making extensive modifications, and installing his own motors and electronics. Find any other manufacturer that would even talk to you about that kind of a sale! Tormach would laugh before hanging up on you. Novakon provided exactly what he wanted, and when he's done, he's going to have a VERY nice machine.

Mike too seems happy with his purchase, and seems to be treating it more as an educational experience than anything else. I'm actually not clear on why he took his machine apart to the extent he did, but my impression is it was because he caused some damage, due to his own inexperience with CNC machines.

Not sure what other "mods" you've seen, but what I've seen in my 20 or so months here is the normal minor issues that should be expected of any machine in this class - minor shipping damage, perhaps a few things that need a little TLC to get them really working properly. In every case I've seen, Novakon has been very good about sending out the necessary replacement parts, and helping the customer get the machine sorted out. My machine had some minor damage when I received it, and I got all the parts I needed with no questions asked.

What I've seen is people, many customers, like me, that are very happy with their machines, many of us running them very hard day in and day out. I probably run my machine 10X as many hours as the typical customer, and I've had only a few very minor problems.

And what's the alternative? A Tormach? Let's see, for about the same money, you can get a machine with a FAR smaller work envelope - the big Tormach has about the same work envelope as the small Novakon. The Novakons will cut at speeds far above the rapid speed of the Tormachs - I do most of my roughing at well over 100 IPM, and that's with HSS tooling! Many Tormach customers seem to treat like they're made of glass, for fear of breaking something - I am one of several Novakon users who their machines HARD almost every day. Check out the Tormach forum, and you'll see about an equal number of people having problems, but almost nobody making any significant upgrades to their machines. How many Tormach people have pull-out problems with their power drawbars, so limit themselves to easy cuts? Or jams with the ATC (which actually breaks and drops the tool in many jams!)? Or just Mach3 weirdnesses? When they WANT to make a modification, they often find they can't because their machines run a modified version of Mach3, with proprietary hardware and software that they can't modify. The Novakon is wide-open - you can do whatever you want to it with little trouble.

I think the biggest difference is the type of customer. Tormach has customers who want a machine that will do their work, albeit slowly, and give them minimal problems, and they want/need a lot of hand-holding. Novakon customers are more people who want to push the limits, find ways to improve their throughput, and are willing to break a few eggs to do that.

Sure, you could buy yourself a Haas, but you'll pay easily 3-5X as much for it, so it's really not a reasonable comparison at all. It should be expected that ANY Chinese machine will need a little TLC when it's first setup - there's a reason they cost so much less than a commercial VMC. Perhaps Novakon could someday have a "premuim" version of their machines for which they will give them a much more thorough "gone-over" before shipping to the customer, but you should expect the cost to be significantly higher, as it's a LOT of work to guarantee the machine is perfect, and very few customers in this price would be willing to pay for that. Would you? But the Novakons give you much more for your money than ANY competitor I've seen. If I were buying another machine today, it would be another Torus Pro - I don't see anything else that even comes close in terms of capability for anywhere near the same money.

One last thing - Novakon has been very aggressively upgrading their machines for the last year or two. They've recently added the SmoothStepper, the new Torus Pro "Deluxe" stand, front-mounted oiler, dedicated wash-down pump, the PDB, the up-coming ATC, the new BOB and many other features, with much more in the works. And, almost everything is, or will be, available as an upgrade to older machines. So, if you want a machine that can grow with your needs you've got it with Novakon.

Regards,
Ray L.

[Hirudin]

There's no apples-to-apples Haas equivalent to the Torus Pro (or PCNC 1100), but their least expensive model (and most comparable), the TM-1, lists for $29k.

[SCzEngrgGroup]

There's no apples-to-apples Haas equivalent to the Torus Pro (or PCNC 1100), but their least expensive model (and most comparable), the TM-1, lists for $29k.

And has a roughly equivalent work envelope (longer X, shorter Y), a slower spindle (4K vs 6K - unless you pay an extra $3200 for 6K), slower rapids (200 IPM vs 350-500 IPM), and, with a 7.5HP spindle, will be difficult to operate on household wiring, assuming you could even get it into your house, given that it's almost 9 feet high, 6 feet deep, and 10 feet long....

Regards,
Ray L.

[Hirudin]

Right, it's not an apples-to-apples comparison, just the most equivalent model.

[G59]

Ok, well I guess the lesson I learned here is the Novakons are good performing machines.

I know all too well the draw backs of the Tormach 1100. I won't even look that way as I, first, can't see myself going back to Mach3, and no servo option or 6K spindle.

The Tormach's work envelope is too small and with Novakon you can get, as an option, a reliable PDB and soon, I hope, an ATC. To me that would be the complete solution. Affordable, reliable and inexpensive.

I was not looking at making a comparison between HAAS and Novakon. I'm well aware that they are of a different breed and class. We all know about the price difference.

But, for a newbie like myself to CNCZONE, when I look at the new threads of the day, the Novakon threads standout mostly as 'new' machine modifications. As I said, their is nothing wrong with customizing/adding to your machine, but brand new and taking the major components off just to look at them and clean them? Ok well maybe I'm too 'Old School'.

In a way, having started this thread was a good thing, as I now see that most users of Novakon's, actually use them day in and day out. That's what I wanted to find out. I got my answer, and I probably will be buying a Pro by next spring.

P.S. This may not be the right time to ask,LOL, but can I order a Novakon without Mach3 ? I'm leaning towards EdingCNC boards or maybe even KFlop controller .

[LeeWay]

Just order it without a controlling computer and problem solved. WAIT. You are wanting to mod the controller out of the box?

[G59]

Ha Ha Ha. I know, call me crazy.
No, but seriously, if Novakon is really open to selling a machine without the control computer, then my problem is solved.
Now only $5K more to save up for, before the call, and re acquaint myself with C programming so I can KFlop it. Man it's been a good 10 years since I have looked at C .

Thanks to everyone.

[mklotz70]

Hi Everyone,
I saw G59's post earlier and I've finally managed to find some time to chime in. I've been up 24hrs, so hopefully, I'll stay awake long enough to post this.

First off.....let me say that I have absolutely NO regrets or second thoughts about purchasing the Pro!!!!!!!!!! None whatsoever!!!

I gave everything in this thread a quick read and it looked like everything was pretty darn accurate. I'd like to thank the guys that stepped in and helped to explain my position. I figure I'm the one that caused most of G59's question since Dan custom ordered his specifically to mod..........so......I'll throw in my 2 cents to help clarify my point of view.

When I ordered the Pro, I explained that I'd be doing video on everything I did with the machine. Neither of us expected most of this. I'm hoping they have a chance to view all the vids. It's not my intention at all to cast a shadow on Novakon. If some of this is stuff they're not aware of, then the vids will help them get it fixed. If mine is a "friday" machine(friday in China)....it still helps. I know a sound a bit frustrated or disappointed in a few places in a couple vids, but it still hasn't caused me any second guessing on the decision to get the Pro. I don't think I'll ever be quite as "pumped" as Kelvin in a vid(I love his style, but it's not quite me), but I'm still very much "pro" Novakon. I can see how a potential customer might jump into the middle of one of the vids and only see the down side.......so, I'd seriously consider taking some of them down if they(Novakon) think they're negatively biased. I've simply been trying to show what I've been doing. Whether or not it's been entirely necessary is questionable. I've talked to quite a few guys that started running them out of the box with no issues. Since posting some of these vids, I've gotten feedback from some guys saying that they purged their ball screws with the oiler by running about a half quart of oil through it then ran a warm up routine for an hour or so. I would have loved to have found that info before I got my machine!!! LOL!

As mentioned......I'm a complete beginner to cnc. I took out a loan on my retirement so I was able to by the Pro with servos and some fun extra toys to go with it. If I never make a dime with it, it's okay.....but I would like to make some money with it sometime. I think it's pretty accurate to say that a lot of what I've done has been because I didn't know whether I should or shouldn't worry about it. I didn't need to put the machine into production right away, so I figured this was the best time to dig into anything that I wasn't sure about. As a beginner, I have no clue if this kind of prep is typical, but I haven't found anything to suggest it is....or that it's even necessary. When I bought my round column mill from HF, I knew I was going to have to tear it completely down and clean all the cosmoline off/out of it. If this is typically prep, I would have liked to have some heads up about it. It's not quite what I was expecting to do, but if it's the price of admission, it's worth it.

I did want to get into quite a bit of detail in the videos...and there's more to come, but I hope that anything that's a bit "off" will be viewed as a potential heads up and not any kind of deterrent. I'm showing angles and areas of the machine that aren't shown anywhere else. I'm hoping that viewers will see the guts laid out and see it for what it is, an awesome piece of equipment. If they think "To bad this moron owns it," ......I'm okay with that

I'm starting to get a bit loopy. I think there's some more I wanted to cover.....maybe I'll remember it tomorrow. Hopefully, the spelling and grammar hasn't been too bad.....too tired to proof read right now.

Let me say this before I go.........even if I had to do twice as much work, necessary or not......I'd still buy the Pro without hesitation because in the end, I'll still have the biggest, fastest, strongest mill in price range.

Thanks for listening!!!!
Mike

[bjones]

...so, I'd seriously consider taking some of them down if they(Novakon) think they're negatively biased.
Mike

i hope you don't, they have enough fanboys that gloss over or put a spin on problems that show up. i generally ignore the ones who have nothing but good things to say, nothing is perfect. i am glad to see honest reporting by guys like you and dan that show the bad with the good so we can make informed decisions for ourselves. keep up the good work.

[mklotz70]

Thank you!!! I really appreciate that! I'm trying to simply "present" it. I don't want to take them down just to cover up issues.....only if I seem unfairly negative in the vids. I don't think I have, but I only have my perspective at this time. I don't want to be perceived as "bashing" Novakon. That's exactly opposite of what I'm hoping for. I would have still bought the Pro if I'd know up front that I might need to do this. I think most others looking at the Pro would probably feel the same way. Getting blindsided might royally piss some guys off and they'd start bashing. I'm hoping the vids will help prevent that. There's a lot of guys that have put their machines to work straight away and haven't had any issues at all.......so I hope viewers don't think this is the "norm". If I'd have known how to put it to work right away, I probably wouldn't have done any of this extra tear down.......I would have been too busy making chips If I had the need for a second machine right now.......I get another Pro without question.

[Tkamsker]

G59 what are you trying to do why c ? ,... I watch this threads with interest because i think that in their Range tormach and novakon doing almost all stuff right ,..

[SCzEngrgGroup]

G59 what are you trying to do why c ? ,... I watch this threads with interest because i think that in their Range tormach and novakon doing almost all stuff right ,..

Setting up a KFlop requires the user writing some C-code. It is not entirely menu-configurable like other motion controllers.

Regards,
Ray L.

[Tkamsker]

Cool so i might having a Look at it i almost finnisched retrofitting an bridgeport 412 with linuxcnc but ,..
I had to develop some pcb s 2 components but no c Code -

[G59]

As mentioned by Ray, some coding in C has to be done for the KFlop to run with your specific machine. But having looked at DynoMotion site, it looks like their is a lot of code already created by others that is available for download. So this maybe easier then I originally thought. And in fact, I think they will get you going in the right direction if you ask for help. I hope.