[CosmosK]

I heard a rumor there was a benchtop CNC mill out there that had 12x36 X-Y for 5k. Anyone know what this might be? Or, any advice for getting a benchtop CNC with a larger X-Y footprint for about that much? DIY ideas? I want to make parts from 12x12 sheets and I'm not finding any benchtop machine that it would fit in. Thanks

[carlowens]

you are in the wrong forum, you seem to be looking for a cnc router, this is for benchtop milling machines.

[CosmosK]

Nope, I'm looking for a CNC machine to make real parts, not rapid prototype. I don't have room for a Bridgeport size machine.

http://www.tormach.com/product_pcnc_...html#techspecs

This one looks good, but I need some more Y travel.

[CosmosK]

Some posts are missing, I got an email saying this but I don't see the post:

***************
You will seldom find a Z travel of more than 4" on a benchtop machine. It can accept tools with shanks as larger as a 1/4". It can be used to cut non-ferrous metals (Aluminum), and softer.
***************

I'm new to the forum, anyway to show all or something?
Thanks

[carlowens]

a "benchtop mill" with 12x36 travels is not a benchtop machine, you need a huge mill like a bridgeport or bedmill and a new cnced one will certainly cost you 10k+. your only option is an industrial hobbies machine that you can get as a manual mill and cnc it yourself but you are still going to blow your budget. if you have to have those travels for that money look for a router or on craigs list for something used.

[CosmosK]

14" x 7.5" x 13.25" (X,Y,Z) is the Tormach, very close, granted it's probably not 5k. Just looking for ideas. This one is a benchtop mill.

[Bob La Londe]

Spammers make junk posts sometimes to get past the first post limitations. Moderators delete them and all their posts as soon as they are recognized as spammers.

As to your request. 5K for a CNC mill with 12x12 might be a bit on the lean side. Charter Oak has mill for more than twice that that can overtravel in X & Y to get that. Technically its a benchtop, but not really. LOL.

I don't know what you are looking to do, but for a small footprint, modestly rigid machine with close to your required envelope you might look at importing a cast iron fixed gantry machine, and then retrofitting the controls if the cheap Chinese controls don't work for you. It depends on what you are planning to cut of course also. Those high speed spindles aren't worth much for low speed high torque cutting.

So why don't you tell us what you want to do and somebody can guide you a little more effectively.

[CosmosK]

I see on the spam, thanks

Well, I have some parts I want to make and some of the parts are circular disks about 10" diameter made from 12x12x~1 plastic. There are a hundred things I'd like to do with a CNC, but this sets the work envelope on the large end. Plastic, yes, but I don't want to invest in something that can't at least cut AL.

I have this guy already, but not sure if it would be worth trying to convert.
HiTorque Mini Mill, Solid Column - LittleMachineShop.com

I under stand the 5k number is on the lean side, a buddy who sells cutting tools told me that, maybe he had some numbers wrong.

Gantry sounds good, do you know what manufacturers to check out? Thanks

[Bob La Londe]

Well, you could put a bit of money in that and have a nice little machine. The solid column is a more robust machine than the tilt column. To make that a really nice little CNC machine would cost a couple thousand, but you could skimp and do it for much less.

Just about any machine can cut aluminum. I have an EL CHEEEEPO Chinese moving gantry that I occasionally do aluminum work on by using light cuts and fast feeds, but its a noodle.

If you are going to be mostly cutting plastic you will want a pretty fast spindle, and probably to make friends with the guys into sign making section. They know plastic cutting like nobody else.

If you are going to be cutting a 12" circle you actually either need a machine larger than 12" or a way to rotate the part into the cutting area.

For $5K you could get a pretty decent moving gantry router that would also do light fast aluminum cutting. Its not a mill though. Its a CNC router. A 2x2 Velox (made in USA) is bout $5800 complete. Set it up and start cutting. There are cheaper options, but they have been around a while.

A Sale CNC YX-3636 is a cast iron fixed gantry for less money and only a 14x14 working envelope. I think they sell for around $4k, but probably are not as ready to go, would have import and freight costs, and you may want to upgrade the controls and maybe the steppers.

[CosmosK]

Thanks! Both those look good. I wonder what makes a a machine a router and not a mill. Can they only be programmed to run 2D shapes?

I've thought about refitting the mill I have, but probably want to keep some means of doing manual work, drill a quick hole, etc. The main benefit of using it would be that the spindle us nice and has an R8 taper, however, not speed control feedback.

Thanks

[CosmosK]

Also, do you know who makes good CNC kits for the motors and scales?
Thanks

[CosmosK]

Tormach PCNC 770 looks about right, granted a 12x12 part would have to be spun around and done in two halves. 600 pounds would be interesting trying to get in the basement

[alan_3301]

I would look more into a router, Unless you plan on doing hundreds of metal parts to very tight tolerances, the router should be more than enough, especially for plastic.
If you are worried about surface finish, you can just cut a little oversized and cut it to size on a final pass.

[Bob La Londe]

Here is a video clip of an El Cheapo Chinese Router milling aluminum. I put the wood router on it, pitched the cheezy rotary hand piece it came with, and I upgraded steppers and controller. If I count the computer and software I have about $2K TOTAL hardware cost invested in it. I do not recommend this machine. I just bought one so I could see what it can do. Out of the box for about 1000-1200 it was pretty lame. I forget how much I paid, but it was in that range.

I would note that I have CNC Mills also. Some retrofit by me, and some from the MFG and modified to suit my needs.

[MikeC8]

Thanks! Both those look good. I wonder what makes a a machine a router and not a mill. Can they only be programmed to run 2D shapes?

I've thought about refitting the mill I have, but probably want to keep some means of doing manual work, drill a quick hole, etc. The main benefit of using it would be that the spindle us nice and has an R8 taper, however, not speed control feedback.

Thanks

A router will have a high speed spindle, with a rpm range of 2,000-24,000. Some are variable speed, cheaper ones only run at full speed. They are not as rigid, as they are used for cutting softer materials such as wood and plastic. They make quick work of plastic, though I would look for a machine that has a variable speed spindle for plastics, I find most plastics cut best at around 6500-12000rpm. I've broken to many bits from melting the plasltic at higher rpms.

Also single flute cutters work best in plastics, less heat build up.

[CosmosK]

very nice

[bhurts]

A router is designed to cut woods and plastics. A heavy duty router will also cut non ferrous metals. A mill is designed to cut all metals including steels/exotics. Router vs mill has nothing to do with the shapes it will cut. Just about any mill or router will cut 2d and 3d no problem if it is a 3 or more axis machine. Routers have much higher spindle speed on average then a mill also. Mills even higher speed spindle mills will be capable of much lower spindle speeds to allow efficient steel cutting. Mills are usually much heavier built and more rigidly designed.

Ben

Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Tapatalk

[CosmosK]

Ok, let me rephrase. If I up my budget to 10k, what is the best CNC machine I can get? Most likely needs to be 120V and can't be too tall (Bridgeport mill too large). I'm seeing Tormach and Syil. Any others I should check out. Tool change would be great, but not sure if you can get that in that price range.

Thanks

[Bob La Londe]

The problem is still the working envelope. You need 11-12" in X & Y to easily do everything on a 10x10 part without rotating it. Tormach has a good following as does Novakon. I don't know if Syil has what you are looking for in your price range either. BUT, most of the mills have a spindle that is on the slow side for efficient plastic cutting. The PCNC 770 has a 10K spindle, but its too small for you. The Syil Speedmasters have a 24K spindle (optional 35K) but they are WAY to small for you. Standard spindles on most of those machines are in the 4500-6000 peak speed range. A little on the slow side for plastics, and still not having that XY envelope you need.

Some of the others who suggested a router are pointing you in the right direction. A decent quality moving gantry router is your best option for plastics for price and size. If it is decent quality, you learn what you are doing, and you setup jobs properly it can also do many/most non-ferrous metals with light fast cutting and some form of coolant or chip clearing blast.

A slooooow (quality) moving gantry router is going to have feed rates as fast or faster than any of the mills mentioned along with higher acceleration rates. Much more suitable for cutting plastics. I tested the little one I showed you (with my controls) upto 600IPM before backing it down to 300 XY and 200 Z as its final top speed. You should see it whizzing through a piece of mohagony at 180IPM (proper feeds and speeds calculated of course).

120V is limiting, but not impossible. Obviously there are plenty of wood routers that turn high speeds (8K-28/34K), are adjustable speed, are 120V, and options upto 3HP apx. They are fine for wood and plastics, and as I showed you are possible to cut aluminum with planning. (That was an actual part I am installing today.) There are even some modest power 120V 3phase spindles out there, but power is limited to about 1HP readily. There are some imports with higher power, but you want to only buy from somebody who has been in the business a while. "Deals" almost never really are. I like Solar Jean on Ebay for 3phase spindles. Ugra CNC is good also, but more expensive. Ugra does have some cheap not great supplemental stuff though. All of that really only concerns you if you are going to build a machine though.

You need to define your NEEDS not your WANTS for a machine choice and then you can budget shop. If your NEED is to cut plastic, and removing aluminum by the gallon is only a WANT then buy a decent quality moving gantry router in the size you want. 12X12 is pretty small for a router and should be readily available within your original budget. Heck, send me your $5K and I'll build you a nice one. LOL.

There are some pretty impressive bed mills out there with 15K spindles 20HP, low and high speed, high acceleration, huge working envelopes and high feeds. They will do everything you want, but they aren't a magic bullet either. Price, Voltage, & Size, all blow away your limitations like they don't exist.

We heard your question the first time and understood it. Restating it didn't really get you a different answer.

Depending on how much variety of work you are going to do it is not unreasonable to plan on acquiring multiple machines. (I have more than one machine, and plan to buy or build a couple more as time and money allow.)

So, buy a good quality CNC router and cut a zillion plastic discs with it. When you have sold enough plastic discs you can use the money to buy a CNC mill if you still need or want a more rigid machine.

[CosmosK]

Currently, I'm eyeing this one:
Stinger I CNC Router
Upside seemingly that it comes with computer, big work area, seems fairly stout and it’s NOT huge.
I have some advising me to just get a Bridgeport as routers are not mills and can't do AL. Long term, I WANT a Hurco or a Haas, but short term I'll probably be doing mostly plastic parts and maybe some wood and AL. I've made plenty of parts on a Bridgeport style mill with 2D Accurite control. I always find myself needing the bigger working area for flat parts. I don’t really want a Bridgeport sized machine to start with. I’d like to be able to move it someday.
I'm leaning towards the router understanding it won't cut steel and won't have much Z travel. Like you said, I can save up for the Haas for the next phase.
I'm actually more concerned on the programming end. Any advice on the software end? I'm trying to understand the layout. You have the machine with 3 axis, then you have the motors and scales (or is position just encoder position?). A computer’s in there and you have a CAM software. I’m on the design end and do lots in Solidworks, but I’ve never stepped foot into the CAM side. Is there a better a worse way to go such that I’m positioning myself to grow into a Haas or such that I can upgrade the machine to have a mill spindle with more travel? I guess I don’t want to end up using a program that’s really just for 2D stuff and nothing at all like the pro CAM software.