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Thread: LinuxCNC?

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  1. #1

    LinuxCNC?

    I will receive my mill in a week or two. Have been reading on both novakon and tormach forums about problems with mach 3. I am not very familiar with neither Linux cnc or mach 3 so I guess I will have some learning to do no matter what I do. Which one should I use/choose? Is there a Linux cnc configuration file available for torus pro?

    Ray you are using Linux for your pro? What is your opinion?

  2. #2
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    Re: LinuxCNC?

    I don't use either. I put a KFlop on my Pro as soon as I got it, and I run a CNC controller application I wrote myself.

    You should try both Mach3 and LinxuCNC. LinuxCNC has a reputation for being very stable, but it is also pretty minimalist in functionality, and the UI is very simple, and rather crude. It can be modified, but I never got deep enough into it to learn how - seemed like too much of a project. Plus I run other apps on the machine that are only available for Windows, so Linux was kind of a non-starter for me.

    Bottom line, it comes down to personal preference.

    Regards,
    Ray L.

  3. #3
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    Re: LinuxCNC?

    Personally, I'd skip Mach3 completely. I've had it on a few machines over the years and there is always something that annoys the living daylights out of me. It came on my Novakon NM200 and if it wasn't diving the Z axis into the ground the minute you turned your back, it was failing to turn on and off the spindle when it was supposed to. I put Flashcut on it and it's been a machine you can rely on 100%.

    Regards Linuxcnc, I attempted to install it about a year ago to have a look, but it did not like the spare PC I happened to have. Over the last year, I collected a few more spare PC's and decided to try it again. The install went as easy as other Linux things I have been doing (I have Linux Servers at the shop, MythTV at home).

    Right out of the box, it opens up in the gui called "axis". I guess while it has everything a guy needs for your average 3 axis machine, you find yourself wondering how to use it because it is so bare compared to any other control you have ever used. You conclude that you have to immediately memorize key commands because frankly, stuff you need to use and think should be up front visually is buried 3 levels deep in the upper menu.

    I figured I would go to their HELP menu and find some help, but I only found ABOUT Linuxcnc. So, I had to hit the various manuals to figure out what I had to do to configure it for a machine and then how to operate it. The basics are handled by a gui called stepconf. This gives you a visual window to adjust various settings... pin configurations for step, dir, enable , etc. It is here you also set accelerations, home routines and minimum and maximum travel rates. There is a handy set of tools there to allow you to check the actual motion of each axis before you leave to see how your machine will react to your settings.

    While using the stepconf gui, you feel like your missing an awful lot of options or settings you should be seeing, but you are prompted to save the configuration and the window closes. You find out that the next thing you do is re-open the main control window (axis) and attempt to home the machine, set a program zero, and run a file..... beyond the homing routine, you really wonder how to do any of the following without key commands.

    When your tired of the minimally featured user interface called axis, which only took me a few minutes, you stick your nose back into the books to figure out how you can use one of the other user interfaces they tell you exist. Well, you find out that you can simply change the gui by editing an INI file. Easy enough. Open the INI, edit the line, and relaunch the program to see the changed GUI. It seems ANY of the alternative gui options will jar your memory as to what a control usually looks like. That's about the time you start to wonder why the stepconf program just didn't offer you the gui options right there in the "setup dialogs" they offered.

    So, indeed, the other window options actually look like a control !... jog buttons, code edit window, Yep.... this looks familiar. So, at this point, you find that you can actually "play" with the machine. See how it reacts, see if you selected accurate accelerations and travel rates. In my case, I had some debounce issues that HAD to be addressed in order to play. Struck me again that I did not see anything regards debounce in the setup gui. A few days of research, a few discussions in the forum, and I found that you have to add debounce manually to the HAL file (which is another config file in addition to the INI).

    After some starts and stops to get what I was to add correctly addressed in the file, the machine homes like expected. Back to playing. Motion is good, speed is good... accelerations could use a touch up. So, I opened up stepconf, adjusted the accels that bugged me, saved the config, opened the main program and the machine would not home ! That's because you really can only use stepconf ONCE ! Anything you change or add to the INI or HAL will be overwritten. And I guess it is too much work to just add a little line of text to the stepconf gui that TELLS YOU THAT ?? This is what has bugged me so far. I design in depth user interfaces for databases. I tend to put what is needed to operate the development in the gui to make things clear to users. And, its EASY to do such ! But given that Lcnc has been out so long, I doubt we will see this easy stuff attended to. Stepconf should disappear after you use it once !

    My examination to date ? It does not have the majority of very common things most have been used to seeing up front in other controls. It IS an incredibly powerful program that allows you to pretty much do whatever you want or need to do, but all virtually by editing config files manually. And, the tough part with that is finding out what it is you need to add or adjust to those config files, especially if your not a linux gearhead/programmer type. For example, if you wanted to have a simple feed hold / restart option, you have to search for the code someone may have used to create that function, then add that code in hopes that THEIR overall specific configuration will not collide with something you may have already added to your config.

    It seems there is no end to what you CAN do, but you have to do a lot of legwork that other programs already have right there, up front for you to turn on or adjust in their setup gui. You also can not "adjust" things on the fly. I'm used to being able to start a job, and if I decide I would like to loosen the accelerations without starting over, I can put the machine in feed hold, pop open a config file from within the main control program, adjust it, save the config, and continue the job with the new rates. Seems Linuxcnc only recognizes "adjustments" when the main program is opened as it must read the configuration files (and there can be numerous files) to apply the information.

    I'm going to keep on learning about it... heck, its FREE and it's clearly a more stable control than Mach3. Jury is still out regards Mach4, not that I would use it. If I am spending money, it will be on Flashcut. THAT works like a dream.

    Hope this gives some insight to LinuxCNC from a newbie. For mach insight, just go look into its forum full of "discussions".
    Chris L

  4. #4
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    Re: LinuxCNC?

    Quote Originally Posted by SCzEngrgGroup View Post
    I don't use either. I put a KFlop on my Pro as soon as I got it, and I run a CNC controller application I wrote myself.

    You should try both Mach3 and LinxuCNC. LinuxCNC has a reputation for being very stable, but it is also pretty minimalist in functionality, and the UI is very simple, and rather crude. It can be modified, but I never got deep enough into it to learn how - seemed like too much of a project. Plus I run other apps on the machine that are only available for Windows, so Linux was kind of a non-starter for me.

    Bottom line, it comes down to personal preference.

    Regards,
    Ray L.
    Perhaps you should market your controller to the Novakon community.

  5. #5
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    Re: LinuxCNC?

    I just made it through getting linuxcnc setup. There is a steep learning curve and it gets a little confusing sometimes but the previous poster laid out all of its faults pretty well. Once you know what they are you can work around them. It's not that bad, just tricky.

    The is a new GUI released with the new version called gmocappy (sp?) that is really nice and modern and makes sense for a cnc ccontrol. It is a very powerful program and so far has worked flawlessly for me. Mach just seemed to buggy and hobbyish but that's just my opinion.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 2

  6. #6
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    Re: LinuxCNC?

    I suspect that most of the complaints about MACH3 are hearsay. Yes, I know people that have wrestled with MACH3, but I have had almost no problems. I tried EMC2 and wasted two weeks trying to get it to work to no avail. Finding support is spotty at best. I started with EMC2 because it was supposedly more stable than MACH3. Well, let me tell you, it wasn't for me. I decided to go with MACH3 and was up and running in a few hours! The support is GREAT!

    It seems that it is the thing to do to bash MACH3. MACH3 works very well for the VAST majority of users. There are some (like Ray) that have had mysterious problems with it. It is probably because there are so many PC clones out there, that they have undisclosed minor differences that are difficult to plan for (and can bite you in the a$$).

    If you think that MACH3 looks "hobbyish" you can get professionally made screen sets that transform its appearance. Or you can do as I have, make your own custom screens. It's pretty easy - especially compared to EMC2.

    MACH3 is also free IF you don't exceed 500 lines of program code.

    EMC2 is no panacea! I think there is a lot of "the grass is greener" going on.

    BOTH programs are marvelous tools. Neither is BETTER than the other - they have their advantages and disadvantages. They are different, so you need to evaluate your specific situation and go from there. For me EMC2 was a no-go because of the lack of support and difficulty in making custom screens. MACH3 was EASY to get started and make custom GUI screens.

    I agree with Ray, try both. One day I hope to be going to Kflop like Ray has....
    "Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." Antoine de Saint-Exupery (1900 - 1944)

  7. #7
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    Re: LinuxCNC?

    I am using LinuxCNC for 2.5 years now and came from Mach3.
    LinuxCNC is 10 times better than Mach3, 3 times more difficult to set up and 100 times more stable than Mach3. I will never look back to Mach3, and I can trust LinuxCNC for continuous professional work. I use it on CNC lathes and milling machines, always with Mesa hardware. If you are in Europe you can buy for example from EuSurplus.com
    The less good thing in LinuxCNC is the screen (now better with gmocappy). The official forum is also a very good source of info. It is a bit hard to start, but as soon you can understand how things work (and they make sense) the stability is huge, and at the end, this is what you need from a machine.

  8. #8
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    Re: LinuxCNC?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonesturf View Post
    Mach just seemed too buggy
    Quote Originally Posted by fomaz View Post
    LinuxCNC is 10 times better than Mach3, 3 times more difficult to set up and 100 times more stable than Mach3
    I get tired of this MACH3 bashing! What EXACTLY does it mean that it's too buggy? What EXACTLY does it mean that it is more"stable"?

    Everybody wants to rag on MACH3 but nobody (except maybe a few like Ray) will really tell you what is ACTUALLY the problem. I suspect that most people have HEARD there are problems, but only a few actually had any problems.

    As far as I'm concerned, EMC2 can't possibly be 100 times more stable. Frankly if MACH3 was SO UNSTABLE, it would be totally useless. ArtSoft has sold enough licenses, it can't possibly be useless.

    There is also NO WAY that EMC2 is TEN TIMES better. Plus it is at least TEN TIMES MORE DIFFICULT to set up (not 3).
    "Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." Antoine de Saint-Exupery (1900 - 1944)

  9. #9
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    Re: LinuxCNC?

    The numbers are of course my opinions, from real work on Mach3 and LinuxCNC.

    On Mach3 there are a lot of things that simply do not work (or worked) for lathes. Constant surface speed is one example. It is/was buggy. I also tested hardware like smoothstepper that hanged more the PC and made it totally unstable that it did not worked at all. Inputs and outputs were also "magical" and sometimes the output was not working as expected. Those were all gone with linuxcnc + mesa hardware, and I tell you again, I am writing this from real experience with machines to produce parts on a profit scheme, not only for hobby.
    If you dough, try to use mach3 on a cnc lathe and you will see how many problems you encounter, making it unusable for real work. (I remember another one - tool path compensation for lathes was not working). So I think I gave already REAL problems as you requested.

    Linuxcnc is more stable. Real stable. I can make 200 parts continuous without operator interference for hard to make parts, as I have full encoder feedback up to linuxcnc with mesa hardware (pico hardware will also provide this feature). In Mach3 I do not even know if it is possible. So for me, Linuxcnc is far more stable and better than Mach3, and I bought Mach3 licenses in the past, money that I regret spending.

    It is indeed more difficult to set up, especially if Linux is a total stranger to you, but the forum helps a lot. Indeed I got a lot of help when I started.

  10. #10
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    Re: LinuxCNC?

    THANK YOU fomaz.

    This is far more useful information. I have no experience with MAC3 turn, so your comments are great to know.

    Your problems with SmoothStepper are consistent with other reports I've read. To me they reflect issues with interfacing after-market hardware.

    Your success with switching to LinuxCNC and Mesa hardware is very telling. It seems to indicate that removing the pulse generating task from the PC and having a robust interface between the PC and this other hardware is the key (this was not the case with your SmoothStepper/MACH3 setup). This is consistent with other things I've read.

    Something to keep in mind is that this has less to do with EMC2/MACH3 than it has to do with the interface with the external hardware. I suspect there are examples where MACH3 can be used with external hardware with equal success. From what I have found, Kflop should be quite stable with MACH3. But it also affects how easy it is to set up - since one needs to write some C programs for Kflop to work.

    I am happy that you have a robust system that makes you money. My MACH3 installation on my Bridgeport BOSS3 is quite stable and I also use it to make money. However, my current system is the basic 3 axis system that MACH3 was developed for. As I begin to incorporate spindle control and other features, I plan to use the Kflop board since it is designed for such things (whereas a parallel port was not).

    Thanks for clarifying your experience with EMC2/MACH3.
    "Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." Antoine de Saint-Exupery (1900 - 1944)

  11. #11
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    Re: LinuxCNC?

    Quote Originally Posted by kvom View Post
    Perhaps you should market your controller to the Novakon community.
    Not a chance. That would take waaaaaaay too much time and effort! It's designed to work the way I want it to work, and is FAR from "commercial grade". Making changes requires hand-editing XML and/or modifying the c and c# source code - FAR beyond what the average user could handle.

    Regards,
    Ray L.

  12. #12
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    Re: LinuxCNC?

    >>>>> Everybody wants to rag on MACH3 but nobody (except maybe a few like Ray) will really tell you what is ACTUALLY the problem. I suspect that most people have HEARD there are problems, but only a few actually had any problems.

    All one has to do is spend a little time in their support forums for it and you can easily see that there are a lot of unsolved problems, not at all simply the result of user lack of knowledge. I indicated my troubles and I gave it the better part of the year trying to solve it rather than it destroying the items I was modifying with the mill. And its NOT a bash.... certainly not against Art, that's for sure. How he did what he did in the time he did it is incredible.

    Too, if it really did not have any issues to speak of, then why a ground up rebuild ? Simple. The underlying code was developed at such a record pace making everyone with any and all types of machines happy that it would be impossible to properly manage bugs... there were often new releases daily to make people happy !

    I know my results with it over the years and I tried more than once. The last one had all the "brand name" common hardware behind it.... PC4cnc board, Gecko Drives, etc. Constant troubles with spindle control (not hard to find that problem in the forums), Constant problems with changed settings not being recognized reliably... Non-working MPG, and and too, yes, that "kid crayons" interface. I retained the pc4cnc and geckos.. they now honor the commands sent and I no longer wreck any material. I should be able to tell the story.... no ?

    Yes, you can get a different screen. People who get Mach have found themselves routinely spending for software level "improvements" of which some were complete failures, as well as hardware "improvements" as they tried to get the dang thing to work the way others said it worked for them. I've watched people jump into that $150, then add a gaggle of external components that were going to solve their problems, often ending up within a few dollars of having purchased a guarantied reliable control. Sadly, some just got caught holding a dead issue... an item that simply did not work, and no longer any company to stand behind it. I have an MPG in a drawer somewhere that I got suckered into..... Junk. Pure junk.

    I know for a fact that one major issue is all the various releases.... Some do some things fine and fail on another. You know, there are users who use more than one "version" depending on what they are doing because it does not work the way it should on both sides of their requirements. Its not "bashing".... its reality. And, not hard to find when you happen to have some of the problems and search specifically on them, and that you are not alone.

    >>> EMC2 can't possibly be 100 times more stable.

    Maybe not 100 times.... but certainly "times more".... its running on Linux ! My experience with Linux goes back now about 15 years, though mostly with Data Servers. Certainly a 100 times more reliable and more affordable than windows servers, and I've had both side by side competing... Linux wins hands down. Only in the last 6 or so years have I dabbled with desktop versions, all of which are getting quite incredible these days (like MINT). If only things catch up in the Cad/Cam market,...... I could finally dump windows and its shennanigans.

    >>> Frankly if MACH3 was SO UNSTABLE, it would be totally useless.

    I dont think anyone ever said that... just fair warning that a $150 control that is being rewritten from the bottom up might not be a guarantied 'for sure'. There are thousands upon thousands of very detailed, very real issues that people have raised in various Mach forums since its beginning. I'd like you to find ANY other control that actually has had anywhere near that number of "issues" to address.... there are none with that volume of problems.

    >>> ArtSoft has sold enough licenses, it can't possibly be useless.

    Wasn't "useless" for Art now was it ! I believe he "retired" to an exotic island ! Hurray for him ! He would have been a great guy to meet. Obviously a very brilliant man.

    But, if you ever want to get a list started that keeps track of who BOUGHT Mach and who no longer uses it, well put me down for having 3 purchased copies (one retail in the beginning, 2 via machine purchases) that are no longer being used, nor ever will be by me. I have to turn 100% of my raw materials into good parts... not 80 or 90%.

    Like I mentioned, LinuxCNC is free.... it's capability becomes very obvious if you stop and read for a few days. In fact, the gmoccapy wiki pretty much walks you thru that capability in one location. And, I have received pretty much instant help from the forum over there. But I will continue to install and use Flashcut on my machines that have to be reliable, certainly until I fully understand the ins and outs of Lcnc. I run so many machines via Laptop these days.... that would be one thing I would for sure miss though !
    Chris L

  13. #13
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    Re: LinuxCNC?

    I should be able to tell the story.... no ?
    Sure. But of your 160+ posts here, you've already told it 100 times before, haven't you?

    There are thousands upon thousands of very detailed, very real issues that people have raised in various Mach forums since its beginning. I'd like you to find ANY other control that actually has had anywhere near that number of "issues" to address.... there are none with that volume of problems.
    Ok, this is a bit over the top. Are you saying there are thousands of separate bugs in Mach3, or a handful that have been reported 1000 times?

    Yes, there are numerous bugs in Mach3, and they can vary from version to version. A lot of these bugs have to do with little used functions like Formulas and screw mapping, that 99% of users never even look at.
    From my experience, there are maybe a handful of issues that affect a very, very small percentage of users.
    The main one is where Mach3 doesn't obey the axis acceleration rates. Very few people ever run into this issue, and I thin it's one of the main reasons Ray moved to the KFlop.
    The vast majority of issues I see these days with Mach3 are not Mach3 bugs, but issues with wiring, electrical noise (ground loops), and the quality of parallel ports in modern PC's. Also consider that all PC's are not created equal, and some just don't like to run Mach3 with a parallel port.

    There are two sides to every story, and your side leaves out the fact there are thousands of Mach3 users that never see any issues. A lot of them even reliably control their spindles.

    Mach3 didn't work for you, but it does work for many others. Probably far more than all other low cost controls combined.

    And yes, as mentioned above, Mach3 lathe has real issues, that have never really been addressed. And they never will be. At this stage in it's life, Mach3 is what it is. Development stopped years ago. Yet for most people, it's still the best option available.

    I run so many machines via Laptop these days.... that would be one thing I would for sure miss though !
    You mentioned in another post yesterday that you can't run Mach3 on a laptop. Not with a parallel port, but there are a great many users running Mach3 on laptops. There are even people running Mach3 on Windows 8 tablets. As long as your not using the parallel port, you can run Mach3 on just about any Windows PC.
    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
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    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)

  14. #14
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    Re: LinuxCNC?

    HJ is right... They're both good. My beef with Mach being buggy was more against windows. I've never owned a windows computer that didn't give me issues.

    The fact that the hardware doesn't mix and match really didn't allow me time to play with both. Once I saw the Mesa boards and how flexible they were I committed to Linuxcnc. So far I'm happy. A little harder to get going maybe but I never had to wait too long to get answers. Sure there's more support for Mach but the guys on the Linux mailing list reply back pretty quick. Depends on what you're looking for I guess.



    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 2

  15. #15
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    Re: LinuxCNC?

    What percentage of pro mach 3 references are in your 500 posts ? Maybe we are tied up ?

    Of all my posts, there is no argument that I fully believe that out of the box, Flashcut has blown away all these other options for years, especially for any newbie, and it certainly has not failed to deliver for the non-newbies either...

    But, the question was between Mach3 and Lcnc. The OP asked a question, and now he has two sides to the story. Glad I chipped in.

    And, as of this second, if he has to "learn" between the one foot in the grave Mach3 or LinuxCNC, he would be better off with Linux !
    Chris L

  16. #16
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    Re: LinuxCNC?

    It was never my intention to have this discussion become "my dog is better than your dog". I am only trying to put things in the proper perspective.

    There are advantages and disadvantages to both EMC2 and MACH3. There is a LOT of discussion about MACH3 bugs by people that have only heard there are bugs, BUT THEY NEVER TRIED IT THEMSELVES. Obviously datac and fomaz aren't some of those. As ger21 said, at least 99% of all MACH3 users have no problems. But this fact gets drowned by the other 1% getting passionate about their frustrations. I can definitely relate to this as I am also passionate about my frustrations with EMC2!

    Yes I have frustrations with EMC2, but I do know that it is a very powerful tool, just as MACH3!

    datac, it seems you have a bad taste in your mouth from MACH3. I understand. To say that MACH3 has "one foot in the grave" is ludicrous. It will continue to work flawlessly for years (if not decades) for those for whom it is currently working flawlessly (me for example).

    The computer that I'm using right now is working just fine with Windows XP. My 3D models are just as good as they've always been - even though they were made with SolidWorks 2007. My AutoCAD drawings are all just great - even though I use AutoCAD R14. The neat thing about software is that it doesn't wear out. Its capability doesn't expire just because it gets superseded.

    MACH3 will be just fine! I WOULDN'T TRADE IT FOR ANYTHING!

    Also... MACH3 is FREE for those that don't need more than 500 lines of G-code. I used it for many years that way.
    "Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." Antoine de Saint-Exupery (1900 - 1944)

  17. #17

    Re: LinuxCNC?

    best thing to do is try both and decide , I've used emc and have stated my concerns with it many times , mach worked out to be the better choice on my router .
    After tearing down the router to make room for my mills , I still use mach . Ubuntu was much too resource demanding for my p4 pc's , mach runs multiple tooling (manual change)on my xp pc's flawlessly at roughly 50hrs/week and my pc's are rarely ever shut down or rebooted . Only problems that I've really had were hardware related .
    I've looked at , and installed the latest version of linuxcnc into vmplayer , and I must say that there appears to be a large leap in linuxcnc . The new install runs great on vmware , its fast and clean (usually not so sh$@ hot on vmware). Which leads me to believe that it may have come around to a point that it's not so resource demanding and running much more lean . I really liked emc when I was using it but it eventually wasn't the right fit . The latest version looks pretty darned good and I'd probably cross over and try it before considering upgrading to mach 4 . I'll probably try an install when I can find the time but will probably stick to mach3 unless I see a noticeable difference in processing my heavy coded surfacing programs
    Unfortunately this is always the touchiest subject that I have ever seen repeated on the forum because some people feel strongly in their opinions(both sides of the fence) and the one thing that is over looked is the time and effort that are put into both control wares . They are both fabulous for quick set up and play , with obvious tweaks to come , and both perform well . Some like a chevy some like a ford
    A poet knows no boundary yet he is bound to the boundaries of ones own mind !! ........

  18. #18

    Re: LinuxCNC?

    Thank you guys!

    Looks like I did to little research to even question about which one to use. (chair) I am an mechanical engineer and I do not have very much experience from programing and I do not have the time to learn either. So I will probably start with mach 3 so that the mill can start making things for me. I hope that mach4 is more stable than mach3 and that it is released sometime soon. If that does not happen Flashcut might be the way to go.

  19. #19
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    Re: LinuxCNC?

    Quote Originally Posted by MBViklund View Post
    I hope that mach4 is more stable than mach3
    Keep in mind, the VAST majority of MACH3 users have zero "stability" problems. So it is VERY likely that you only know it MAY be unstable for you because only a small percentage of people have (and the bad press is overblown). You will probably be one of the vast majority that it works fine for. There is no real need to concern yourself with "stability" at this point. There are a lot more likely areas that you will have problems.

    Also, the mindset that MACH3 is "unstable" will distract during troubleshooting and can sidetrack you from finding a problem that is unrelated to "stability".

    MACH3 is NOT "unstable" for me, and it's highly likely it will be the same for you.
    "Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." Antoine de Saint-Exupery (1900 - 1944)

  20. #20
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    Re: LinuxCNC?

    I got my NM200 in 2008, and any problems I've had could be traced to the older BoB card. Even that was a minor annoyance, although for a production shop it would have been more of an issue.

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    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 06-18-2012, 04:56 AM

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