[Bearhawk LSA]

Hello All,

I have been a member of this forum for a while, but always lingering as i was not ready to make the plunge to buy a mill. I was about to convert one myself, but know of one that they guy is willing to sell. It has a full enclosure. treadmill motor mod, Hoss manual drawbar upgrade, coolant and the tool height puck that works with continuity. He wants 4K which is less then it would cost me to build. it also comes with the computer and possbly some tooling. My questions are more toward using the machine. I am a solidworks user and curious what the best program is to built tool paths from my models. A friend uses Mastercam and he can teach me. Cam works is integrated into solidworks, but I have never used it. I'd need to find a copy as well. I would liek to lean toward something free if possible.

I do intend to use this for light production work. I have a design I sell and the parts are made from a custom 6061 extrusion i designed. I will only run parts maybe for a week or so in my spare time until done, then not until they run out so its not an every day production. The parts are all in the 2" square range so travel is not an issue nor is extreme machining precision.. What is an issue is many tool changes needed to make the parts. I was looking at the Tormach tool changer system and it looks like a good way for me to have repeatable tool changes between ops. I am curious if I should consider building an automatic tool changer, or if I can just swap tools when needed using the manual drawbar mod it has. Its the one with the flip up bar and bellville washers. If I set my tools to have the same offset and the offset is saved in mach 3 can i just swap as needed without setting the tool height each time? How easy is it to learn the ins and outs of Mach 3? I know the guy who is selling it can help me, but curious how intuitive it is. Would an air actuated drawbar be worth adding?

Any advice and suggestions would be great as i am seriously considering this and have to decide soon.

Best regards,

Marc

[AVRnj]

Hello All,

I have been a member of this forum for a while, but always lingering as i was not ready to make the plunge to buy a mill. I was about to convert one myself, but know of one that they guy is willing to sell. It has a full enclosure. treadmill motor mod, Hoss manual drawbar upgrade, coolant and the tool height puck that works with continuity. He wants 4K which is less then it would cost me to build. it also comes with the computer and possbly some tooling. My questions are more toward using the machine. I am a solidworks user and curious what the best program is to built tool paths from my models. A friend uses Mastercam and he can teach me. Cam works is integrated into solidworks, but I have never used it. I'd need to find a copy as well. I would liek to lean toward something free if possible.

I do intend to use this for light production work. I have a design I sell and the parts are made from a custom 6061 extrusion i designed. I will only run parts maybe for a week or so in my spare time until done, then not until they run out so its not an every day production. The parts are all in the 2" square range so travel is not an issue nor is extreme machining precision.. What is an issue is many tool changes needed to make the parts. I was looking at the Tormach tool changer system and it looks like a good way for me to have repeatable tool changes between ops. I am curious if I should consider building an automatic tool changer, or if I can just swap tools when needed using the manual drawbar mod it has. Its the one with the flip up bar and bellville washers. If I set my tools to have the same offset and the offset is saved in mach 3 can i just swap as needed without setting the tool height each time? How easy is it to learn the ins and outs of Mach 3? I know the guy who is selling it can help me, but curious how intuitive it is. Would an air actuated drawbar be worth adding?

Any advice and suggestions would be great as i am seriously considering this and have to decide soon.

Best regards,

Marc

I would strongly recommend HSMexpress which is a free SW CAM program. I find it to be very good.

Mach3 is not bad to learn IMO. TTS is a great system, and works well with Mach3.

I think an air actuated drawbar is nice, but if it already has the Manual Auto Drawbar, unless you plan on adding a ATC at some point, should be more than fine, IMO.

If it does not have a belt drive conversion, I would strongly recommend that, even more so if you plan on cutting aluminum, as the speeds will be far higher and thus better for aluminum.

[Bearhawk LSA]

Hello AVRnJ,

Thanks for the reply. He does not have the belt drive mod, but he was about to make the conversion so he has all the bearings and raw material to make it. I figured the belt drive mod would be a good first project to learn the mill's ins and outs. On the TTS did you buy the big kt with the height gauge, or just the manual starters kit?

Marc

[WOTDesigns]

+1 FOR HSMXpress. I actually have Mastercam but since using HSMXpress I only fore up Mastercam for top level engraving or 3D tool paths which is pretty damn rare and I run a job shop and produce several parts full the time.

Touching off on the machine vs off the machine is like Ford vs Chevy. Those who like each swear by it. I personally prefer to touch off on the machine as it decreases the chances of typing errors and I can touch off 10 tools in about 2 minutes. Spend the extra money on a Haimer 3D. I just sold my converted X3 and my Tormach. One got my Haimer since I have a Renishaw on my HAAS now, and the other bought a new 3D because they are just so damn fast for setting up.

The process is simple, switch to an unused work offset like G59, click on the set up tab, touch Haimer to your plate and zero Z, now load tool 10,jog down till it's touching, type 10, click set tool height button, repeat. 10-15 seconds per tool.

If you do a lot of the same type parts/materials more tool holders is awesome. ER holders are far more useful than set screw holders. The Tormach SUPERFLY THE cutter is amazing! Bye bye material. Fast. Glacern 45* facemill uses the same insert geometry.

You can order 10 packs of ER20 holders on eBay for quite a bit less. Don't forget several sets of mm collets. Then if you use standard tooling pick up a few each, 1/8, 1/4, 3/8, 1/2 for tools. mm are handy for drills and such. Personally I completely quit using drill chucks.

[AVRnj]

Hello AVRnJ,

Thanks for the reply. He does not have the belt drive mod, but he was about to make the conversion so he has all the bearings and raw material to make it. I figured the belt drive mod would be a good first project to learn the mill's ins and outs. On the TTS did you buy the big kt with the height gauge, or just the manual starters kit?

Marc

I did not buy the kit. I bought the granite block with the hole in it, and the collet holders and set screw holders that I wanted to start with. I also bought a digital height gauge on eBay for less money with the same functionality. I don't believe there is any financial gain in buying any of the kits, as I believe it is the same price as buying individual pieces, but you may want to verify that. I also highly recommend the superfly cutter, and you also will want to consider how you plan on zero'ing out your parts, and make sure that you either buy a TTS tool to do that, or a set screw/collet holder to allow you to use what you want to use. Shipping adds up, so I would carefully think about what you need rather than having to make multiple orders. Hope this helps.

[Bearhawk LSA]

Hey Guys,

Thanks for all the great replies. It seems this mill will work just fine for my needs. My current parts are made from custom extrusions I designed and all are roughly 1.5" x 1.5". However, i will likely design a few billet items once I have a mill. When I looked at the mill a while back, he showed me how he used it. He does his edge finding with an electronic edge finder he made. He places it in the spindle and I believe the machine slowly drives into the part until continuity is made then it adds an offset of 1/2 the diameter of the tool. Seems integrated in mach3. I am sure you all know what this is, but wanted to mention that he has it set up that way. For z height tool setting, he uses a similar device and touches the tool to a puck he places on the part or the datum of the table. I think he would touch off with each tool change since he was not using the mach 3 offsets.

In regards to the MAD drawbar, since it relies on the spindle being moved to compress the bellville washers once the tool is inserted, will it return to a repeatable position? Would I need to lock the quill after the tool change?

In regards to the TTS system, thanks for the tip that I can buy the granite separately and height gauge and collets on Ebay.

My only other question is in my design, I have a #6-32 that I need to make sure I don't tap thru. It does not need to be at any tight tollerance, but +/- .03 would be fine in depth. Without rigid tapping what are my options? Can I use a speedy tap or the tormach equivalent with a stop collar on the tap?

Thanks again for all the great advice its helping me make the decision to jump into this a bit easier. Oh about me, I am a mechanical design engineer using solidworks since version 98. Spent most of my career in designing capitol equipment for metrology and extreme precision fab and R&D. Switched tot the film industry and was the lead design engineer for RED digital Cinema designing most of their prototype products in a skunkworks type environment. Now Im in the VR gaming arena and I also have my own product I patented to attach GoPros to aircraft wingstruts. I want to buy this machine to fab my GoPro designs and also some light fab for an airplane i am building.

Marc

[AVRnj]

Hey Guys,

Thanks for all the great replies. It seems this mill will work just fine for my needs. My current parts are made from custom extrusions I designed and all are roughly 1.5" x 1.5". However, i will likely design a few billet items once I have a mill. When I looked at the mill a while back, he showed me how he used it. He does his edge finding with an electronic edge finder he made. He places it in the spindle and I believe the machine slowly drives into the part until continuity is made then it adds an offset of 1/2 the diameter of the tool. Seems integrated in mach3. I am sure you all know what this is, but wanted to mention that he has it set up that way. For z height tool setting, he uses a similar device and touches the tool to a puck he places on the part or the datum of the table. I think he would touch off with each tool change since he was not using the mach 3 offsets.

In regards to the MAD drawbar, since it relies on the spindle being moved to compress the bellville washers once the tool is inserted, will it return to a repeatable position? Would I need to lock the quill after the tool change?

In regards to the TTS system, thanks for the tip that I can buy the granite separately and height gauge and collets on Ebay.

My only other question is in my design, I have a #6-32 that I need to make sure I don't tap thru. It does not need to be at any tight tollerance, but +/- .03 would be fine in depth. Without rigid tapping what are my options? Can I use a speedy tap or the tormach equivalent with a stop collar on the tap?

Thanks again for all the great advice its helping me make the decision to jump into this a bit easier. Oh about me, I am a mechanical design engineer using solidworks since version 98. Spent most of my career in designing capitol equipment for metrology and extreme precision fab and R&D. Switched tot the film industry and was the lead design engineer for RED digital Cinema designing most of their prototype products in a skunkworks type environment. Now Im in the VR gaming arena and I also have my own product I patented to attach GoPros to aircraft wingstruts. I want to buy this machine to fab my GoPro designs and also some light fab for an airplane i am building.

Marc

The MAD will not work with a belt drive conversion unless you do what Hoss calls a quill belt drive conversion, basically where you make an extension piece that goes up and down with the quill that the pulley sits on, rather than sitting directly on the spindle, which is easier and requires less parts. But it can be done either way if you have or plan to buy Hoss's plans, he shows you how and has the part files for both ways.

You can use a few different tapping options from Tormach without the need for rigid tapping, if you go on the Tormach store and look under TTS tapping tools you will see there are a few options. One is the Procunier reversing tapping head, the other is a compression/tension tapping head. I have never used either, but many people have used both and I believe with good results.

Good luck with your parts.

[Bearhawk LSA]

OK Guys,

So I decided to buy the machine and will be picking it up in the next week or so. I have been researching tooling and I found some threads regarding Tormach TTS clones and it seems some are good and others are junk. If anyone has a link to a good TTS clone please let me know. I may decide to add an ATS one day so would want the ATS compatible versions. Or if ti just makes sense to buy genuine tormach ones than I woudl consider that as well. My parts are small so curious if I should go ER16 or ER20? I am leaning toward ER20 since it woudl give more compatibility on larger parts. Anyone have any advice on why one is better than the other? I know ER16 are a bit more compact, but with my parts being small I wont run out of Z travel on what I'm currently buying the machine for.

Marc

[pippin88]

The genuine Tormach TTS R8 collet is cheap, so I bought that.

I went with 10x clone ER25 holders from Ebay. Search C3/4 and they should turn up. YSTOOL I think? They have ATC ones as well if you message them.

[Fastest1]

Darkon was the comparable TTS holder on Ebay a while back. Has it changed?

[Bearhawk LSA]

The genuine Tormach TTS R8 collet is cheap, so I bought that.

I went with 10x clone ER25 holders from Ebay. Search C3/4 and they should turn up. YSTOOL I think? They have ATC ones as well if you message them.

Hey Pippin88,

I found the YStool link yesterday and he emailed me a link to the TTS versions. I will likely buy 10. I may source my collets elsewhere as nopoint paying expensive shipping from China on an item I can find in the USA for a similar price. The person with the mill just went on vacation until mid April so i cant pick it up until then. In the meantime I can buy some tooling.

[Bearhawk LSA]

The MAD will not work with a belt drive conversion unless you do what Hoss calls a quill belt drive conversion, basically where you make an extension piece that goes up and down with the quill that the pulley sits on, rather than sitting directly on the spindle, which is easier and requires less parts. But it can be done either way if you have or plan to buy Hoss's plans, he shows you how and has the part files for both ways.

You can use a few different tapping options from Tormach without the need for rigid tapping, if you go on the Tormach store and look under TTS tapping tools you will see there are a few options. One is the Procunier reversing tapping head, the other is a compression/tension tapping head. I have never used either, but many people have used both and I believe with good results.

Good luck with your parts.

Any chance you have a link to the Height gauge with the USB functionality you bought on ebay? I have been unable to find it.

Marc

[Wiggles84]

I got my TTS style from " bsello168 " on ebay.

I asked for a mix of er sizes. I got 6 x ER 20 holder @ $16 ea, 2 x ER 25 holder @ $18 ea, 2 x ER 32 holder @ $18 ea, and $50 shipping.

so I paid $218 vs $350+ if I had ordered from Tormach

Andrew

[Bearhawk LSA]

I got my TTS style from " bsello168 " on ebay.

I asked for a mix of er sizes. I got 6 x ER 20 holder @ $16 ea, 2 x ER 25 holder @ $18 ea, 2 x ER 32 holder @ $18 ea, and $50 shipping.

so I paid $218 vs $350+ if I had ordered from Tormach

Andrew

Thanks for the tip. That is a good idea to ask him to put a 10pack together of various sizes. I may do the same.
Marc

[Bearhawk LSA]

On another note, I may eventually add a tool changer and will be buying the version with the TTS groove. As for tool changers, I have seen the hoss versions and am willing to build one, but for my parts since I am just adding machined features to extrusions, I am curious if I could get away with a static tool changer. My parts are small and I don't need all the travel the machine offers. I am curious if I could have a riser on each end of the Z table that could hold 3 or 4 tools. thus giving me the ability to have 6 or 8 tools inside. Instead of a carousel, the machine just drives over an empty bay deposits the old tool and then jogs to pick up a new one. I could add prox sensors to sense tools. Can this sort of thing be done in Mach 3? Anyone else build a static tool changer on a G0704 build?

Marc

[hoss2006]

Piece of cake.
Projects 7
Hoss

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZKjuuLlC4E

[Bearhawk LSA]

Piece of cake.
Projects 7
Hoss

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZKjuuLlC4E

Hello Hoss,

Thank you for the great reply. Most of the mods on the mill I am buying are from your plans. I would like to also add the automatic drawbar to be able to also then add the tool holder or tool changer. My question is that the link you sent me has plans for a drawbar that works with a cam lever and I have also seen versions on your site that are direct. its tough to know which is the best version or the most recent since you have many versions. For my needs which of your drawbar designs is the best? Also I noticed that the tool holder just drops the tools in rather then sliding in from the side like the ATC. My guess id since it does not need to rotate then the delrin clips are not needed. Thus it seems I can buy the cheaper TTS tool holders on ebay withouut the clip groove. However, I am not opposed to upgrading to one of your motorized TTS designs. Can I get some pros and cons on how you liekd the static version over the rotary?

Thanks again,

Marc

[Wiggles84]

The ebay TTS style holders can be ordered with the clip groove. you just have to ask for it. Not sure why they don't have them listed?



Andrew

[Bearhawk LSA]

The ebay TTS style holders can be ordered with the clip groove. you just have to ask for it. Not sure why they don't have them listed?



Andrew

hey Wiggles,

Thanks for the post. I have already been in touch with the guy who sells the tools and the quote for with groove is a fair amount more than without. Im leaning toward with as I may buildan ATS one day and the versio with groove will work with an ATS and a static tool changer.

Marc

[hoss2006]

Hello Hoss,

Thank you for the great reply. Most of the mods on the mill I am buying are from your plans. I would like to also add the automatic drawbar to be able to also then add the tool holder or tool changer. My question is that the link you sent me has plans for a drawbar that works with a cam lever and I have also seen versions on your site that are direct. its tough to know which is the best version or the most recent since you have many versions. For my needs which of your drawbar designs is the best? Also I noticed that the tool holder just drops the tools in rather then sliding in from the side like the ATC. My guess id since it does not need to rotate then the delrin clips are not needed. Thus it seems I can buy the cheaper TTS tool holders on ebay withouut the clip groove. However, I am not opposed to upgrading to one of your motorized TTS designs. Can I get some pros and cons on how you liekd the static version over the rotary?

Thanks again,

Marc

Both the PDB 2 and PDB 3 work equally as well, the difference is what type of air cylinder used.
The PDB 2 is best with a multistage short stroke cylinder like the one I made and the PDB 3 uses a cheaper long stroke single cylinder.
I'd use the grooved cnc TTS tools, the macro can be easily changed to use them.
Instead of moving over and down it would move down then over to slide into the rack with a clip like I have in the ATC 4.
Hoss