[BurrMan]

Question for the community and any who may have experience in "Routers"......

wanting to help a friend look into the options, and neither of us have experience in the manufacturers of cnc routers, to know what to look into...

Here's some criteria..

I don't want "DIY" systems... (It needs to have some industrial "rigidity" for lack of a better description")

Minimum 36 inch travels for x/y. so a 5 x 7 or 9 is good....

Mostly a cabinet shop, but the interest will be more in "custom" stuff, like 3d relief work and one off's, as opposed to automation of cutting cabinet framework.. (But of course, that's also a good capability to look at having with the system)

Woods, hardwoods, plastics etc.. Wouldn't mind "metal" capable ( Is metal really an option for a "router"????)


Trying to look into price range options first.... The first 2 makers that caught my eye were Thermwood and ShopSabre....

The Thermwood looks for sure "industrial strength" and the models seem to be somewhere like 60K to a bit over 100k...

The ShopSabres do look "industrial", but the model seem to be more like 10k to 30k..

I may be comparing apples to oranges? Like the thermwood models I looked at may have a bunch of "automation" stuff I didn't see, that really is not what I'd be looking for as a starting base...

Maybe the 2 just are not comparable with regard to quality, etc?

I basically was working off the impression that 30k can get a good, industrial heavy duty machine capable of quality work...


If anyone can chime in to give me some good experienced insight would help... "Makers/Models" etc... Questions with more criteria needed, etc.... A realistic price range to get what I'm describing etc...

Thanks in advance...

Burr

[ger21]

Yes, your comparing apples to oranges.

You hear a lot of talk about commercial or industrial routers, but there is really a very wide range of machines available.

$30K is really at the bottom end.
In the $30K-50$ range, I'd start with Shopbot as the lightest duty, then move up to Camaster and ShopSabre.
A lot of the big Chinese imports are also in the Camaster and ShopSabre range, but typically cheaper and lower quality.

A little bit higher up is something like MultiCAM. There are probably a few other similar machines.

Then you jump into the "big iron" range, where prices can run from $70K to $150K.

I don't have any direct experience with thermwood, but I've always considered them at the lower end of the big industrial machines. There's also Onsrud, Komo, and a lot of italian made machines. A lot of these are designed for nested based cabinet manufacturing, and use proprietary controls, and have multiple spindle drill banks. These tend to be the ones over $100K.

If your budget is in the $30K range, then Camaster and ShopSabre are probably the best options out there.

[BurrMan]

Thanks Ger,

In the $30K-50$ range, I'd start with Shopbot as the lightest duty, then move up to Camaster and ShopSabre.

I kind of ruled out shopbot as more of a DIY, or "too light"... I could be wrong. I did breeze by Camaster yesterday, I'll give them a better looksee....

$30K is really at the bottom end.
.

I DID like what I saw at ShopSabre. They seemed to have machines from around 10k up to 30k. Does this statement mean that "below 30K is not really going to get you what you're asking for"???

.
Then you jump into the "big iron" range, where prices can run from $70K to $150K.

I don't have any direct experience with thermwood, but I've always considered them at the lower end of the big industrial machines.

"At the lower end" meaning, 100k will get you in that game, and the others are going to be more? Or "You can get a better product for that 100k than one of those"???

The guy's company only does around 400k to 500k a year. They do everything by hand. I think for 50k to just add the "special custom one off" stuff is not a good move. Only if he can start to cut out his production stuff with it too, does that amount make sense. I don't think he has enough production stuff to start trying to cnc the workload...

I think 10k to 30k may be a reasonable option for that....

If your budget is in the $30K range, then Camaster and ShopSabre are probably the best options out there

Thanks for the other brands to look into... I'll give them a mow over...

[jrmach]

Is this a Hawaii buddy ? Because that is sure to make a difference of who,what,where,etc.
If it is in the states.sounds like he needs an industrial machine that may be out of his price line to justify.That is where Flea bay or other such places selling used would be a better idea.
The moment you take a new machine off the sales floor the price drastically drops for value,like a car.Nothing wrong with good used machinery,just buy smart.If I had bought new,it would of cost me 3X as much for my CNC mill.Hard to justify when I only use it once a week or every other week.Sounds similar story.
Even at used prices,it was hard for me financially.But I cannot begin to tell you how smart of a move it was to buy a bigger,more capable machine than a cheap toy that I no doubt would of broken by now.

[BurrMan]

Is this a Hawaii buddy ? Because that is sure to make a difference of who,what,where,etc.
.

That's a good point jr, and yes, it is for here in Hawaii...

The idea is good to consider, because it would just be a plane trip to check out the machine then ship it back yourself.. The only obstacle to that, is you have to know what your looking at when you go... You don't want to purchase someone else's Junk...

I suppose that would lead to sourcing someone knowledgeable and trusted to check out the prospective purchase....

That's down the road though. At this point, I'm just gathering some insight as to what I'm talking about.....

At this point, I've re-looked at the Camasters and think they look better than Shopsabre for what I'm talking about....

[ger21]

I DID like what I saw at ShopSabre. They seemed to have machines from around 10k up to 30k. Does this statement mean that "below 30K is not really going to get you what you're asking for"???

I don't really know what he needs.

The guy's company only does around 400k to 500k a year. They do everything by hand. I think for 50k to just add the "special custom one off" stuff is not a good move. Only if he can start to cut out his production stuff with it too, does that amount make sense. I don't think he has enough production stuff to start trying to cnc the workload...

A $50K machine will be a heavier duty version of a $30K machine. A $100K machine will be more specialized, and much more productive at it's specialty area.

To really take advantage of the more expensive machines, you need the right software, and someone that knows how to use it to their advantage. It's possible for a $100K machine to do the work of 3 employees, for an hourly payment equal to less than what a single employee makes. That can allow a shop doing $500K to double their business with the same amount of employees.

Without knowing exactly what he's doing, and how he goes about it, it's hard to make a recommendation. But a $30K machine can definitely start making him money. And a smaller machine like that can actually be a lot more flexible than a $100K machine that may be designed especially for cutting sheets of cabinet parts.

If it is in the states.sounds like he needs an industrial machine that may be out of his price line to justify.That is where Flea bay or other such places selling used would be a better idea.

You can often pick up 10 year old $100k-$150K machines for $20k-$30k, but you have to be careful, and know what your getting into. Due to the proprietary nature of a lot of these big machines, repairs can be extremely expensive.

[ShortTrack]

Gerry raises a good point regarding maintenance & service. Over the life of the equipment, the cost and availability of qualified and knowledgeable service in Hawaii is probably just as important a consideration as initial cost.

[jrmach]

"To really take advantage of the more expensive machines, you need the right software, and someone that knows how to use it to their advantage. I"

I am a little lost here.
Ger,are you saying BoB will not work?Burr is at the top of the game here,

[ger21]

Ger,are you saying BoB will not work?

You can create code with BobCAD. I've never used it, so I don't know it's capabilities.
But there are software packages for the cabinet and woodworking industries that can greatly automate the process. I've used software that could generate code for thousands of unique parts, ready to run, and produce barcodes for each part to be scanned at the machine to load the code for each part, in about 2 minutes with maybe 5 mouse clicks. No CAD or traditional CAM needed.

[asuratman]

I've used software that could generate code for thousands of unique parts, ready to run, and produce barcodes for each part to be scanned at the machine to load the code for each part, in about 2 minutes with maybe 5 mouse clicks. No CAD or traditional CAM needed.

Ger,
What is that software? Let me know

[BurrMan]

@ shorttrack, yes, a good point i have got from this thread and will be using

@jr, hard to beat specialty software. Automation on those high end routers will more or less be unique to the system... for bob, you would make a custom post processor..... you could template out alot of the work. Saved features. Saves bbcd files with full cam trees to merge saved geometry, etc....

[jrmach]

1st post "Mostly a cabinet shop, but the interest will be more in "custom" stuff, like 3d relief work and one off's, as opposed to automation of cutting cabinet framework.. "


I ass umed a CAD/CAM would be use

[BurrMan]

1st post "Mostly a cabinet shop, but the interest will be more in "custom" stuff, like 3d relief work and one off's, as opposed to automation of cutting cabinet framework.. "


I ass umed a CAD/CAM would be use

Yes it will... BobCad can run routers.

[mmoe]

Hey Burrman,
You're asking a very complicated question that really is difficult to answer. A few general thought I would offer as someone who has owned a few different machines:

Floorspace and accessibility to the shop floor. This is a significant factor in choosing a machine. Just like any tool, the bigger and heavier a CNC router is, the better it tends to perform on a wide variety of tasks. I know people with the lightest weight machines, mid-weight machine and the truly heavy weight machines (mine is around 8000+ pounds). The guy I know with a lightweight machine cuts mostly foam and his shop floor is 4 feet below grade without a ramp. He also has a 7 foot ceiling (no forklift in there) and a space for the machine, a table saw and assembly areas that total only around 700 square feet. The lightweight machine was easy to install (weighs about the same as his Unisaw tablesaw), takes up only the 40 square feet or so that the table itself requires and is only 5 feet tall. It cuts foam well and is the perfect machine for his needs.

I know another guy with a ShopSabre (the heaviest one they build) that has a 5x10 foot worksurface, two 5hp Becker vacuum pumps and a toolchanger. His shop is on the same level as a loading dock to the building he is located in. The Shop Sabre isn't exactly heavy, but it isn't a table saw either. I'd estimate that it weights about 1000-1500lbs, so being able to roll it into place was more necessary than one that weighs 400lbs. It has steel where the lighter machine had aluminum and the toolchanger makes it a much more useful machine overall. I have to say that I was more impressed by it once I saw it than I was expecting to be when he told me about it on the phone. It's a useable tool, but it does have it's limits. The limits it has would likely not be significant if you're doing basic woodworking like carving a seat or producing guitars, etc. It is not a production machine, so if you're doing something like cutting guitar bodies out, it will take more machine time per guitar (and therefor more expense) than a machine optimized for that kind of work. Not knowing what the products are that your friend intends to machine, I can only way that a Shop Sabre, or something similar, would be good at making small quantities at a slower pace, but would not be good at making money on high volumes of products. Think of it more like a prototyping machine. I've also been around Multicam routers and would say they are not a whole lot better than a Shop Sabre, if at all, so I would personally go more by what is available or more affordable between the two. The Multicam is a heavier build, but not so much so that I'd say it's any more useful than the highest end Shop Sabre. Don't forget to factor in the vacuum pump, which is by far the most useful part of any CNC router if it works well, and by far the biggest fail if it doesn't. Do not cheap out on how you are going to hold your parts down. Yes, it makes the cost go up $10k to have a serious vacuum system and perhaps $5k to get the toolchanger, but between the toolchanger and the vacuum pump, that is the best money you will spend in this segment.

After that range, you hit the "big iron" group as ger called it. Many of the machines in this segment are not only heavy (6000-24,000lbs), but they also can occupy a very large footprint. My machine is in this category, and though it only has a 4x4 ft work area, it requires an area approximately 12ft by 12ft to sit in, not including the vacuum pump! The advantages of a machine like this are that there is simply no comparing it to a smaller machine in terms of durability. If you want to run it 24/7, it will do it without complaint and probably won't show significant wear for years of that kind of use. They are a little slower, simply because moving the Z axis up and down requires moving something that weighs over 1500lbs by itself. Then there's moving the Z axis assembly left to right, which probably weighs as much as a typical small car. Even still, a modern machine such as this can move at around 2000 in/min. An older machine like this usually is topping out closer to 400 in/min.

There are two main types of big machines. The first is similar to the smaller machines, which have moving gantries. This would be like the Thermwoods or some of the more cabinet specific Italian machines. In the case of the latter, the gantries are very, very heavy and have an open end, but they still provide a more rigid gantry than a the midweight machines. The main advantage of a moving gantry is again related to footprint. If the gantry moves, the footprint is only about perhaps 50-100% larger than the work area (a 4x8 machine would require maybe as much as 64 square feet of footprint).

The other type of large machine is a stationary gantry. In this style, the table moves under the gantry instead of moving the gantry itself. The disadvantage obviously being that it takes up a lot more footprint. I would say that most stationary gantry machines require around 4-6 times the shop floor as the work area it can cut. If you're cutting a 5x10 area, you'll often have to have a floor space of up to 20ft by 20ft. The advantage of a machine like this is that it is considerably more precise and usually a lot faster. If you think about it, the table weighs far less than the gantry, so moving the table is much easier than moving the gantry assembly, which may weigh over 5000lbs by itself. A vacuum table may still be over 1000lbs, but even still it's lighter by quite a bit. Most stationary gantry machine are also set up to do much higher production levels, again because there is less concern about how much weight must be moved. They often have 4 router heads, which you can space equally and cut simultaneously with, meaning that if you are making guitar bodies, you can cut 4 of them all at once, thereby producing 4 times the product in the same period of time. This provides savings not only in time, but also other resources such as electricity. The cost per part will be less both in operator wages and overhead. There is obviously additional overhead associated with the larger footprint and the typically higher cost of such a machine but the production trumps those factors if you need that level of output. Stationary gantry machines are also the machines I find to be the most durable, hands down.


Used machines. I've been around a lot of CNC routers. I've also started installing controllers in them at all the levels I described above. One thing I would note is that the cheapest used machines are usually the biggest machines. I've literally had to decline to take large stationary gantry machines that would have been given away free. One that I recently looked at had hardened box ways that you could hardly tell were used, it was in such immaculate condition. As it was one of those machines that required 20ft by 20ft of floor space, I had to decline. The machine had a working controller and ran just fine. All it needed was to be moved and a vacuum pump purchased for it. A person could have put it into production for about $10-15k and if you know your Mach 3 ethernet controller, you could have it updated to a modern feeling machine for another $2k. Buying a machine like that used is also a bit of a project, so if you just want to hit the ground running, I think I'd avoid buying any used CNC router that doesn't come with some support included.

Chinese machines.
If I did not know anything about replacing controllers (which gives me a big leg up on buying machines inexpensively), I would give a high end chinese machine some serious thought. You can get a machine that is quite heavily built, includes a toolchanger, vacuum table and vacuum pump (you can get them in name brands like HSD and Becker) for around $35k delivered. It would be a more substantial machine than a ShopSabre and considerably less money when you compare the features. Not saying one or the other option is better, just that I'd definitely be interested enough to vet one against the other if I were looking in this price range. Jinan Quick CNC is one that I would look into, and they have a machine in that $30k range that seems very well built with good features.

Cutting metal. Non-ferrous metals can be cut with a router no problem. I recently did quite a bit of aluminum work with my router and was pleased with the results. I don't think I'd do this with a light weight machine and I'd certainly only do a limited amount with a mid weight machine, but my heavy weight machine cuts it like a hot knife through butter. It really doesn't seem to work any differently than cutting hardwood for the most part. The main problem I encounter is just holding the material down, since it really isn't set up like a mill table with T-slots. The other issue you run into is that there isn't a good way to apply coolant if needed. I typically run the router at around 10,000 rpms and keep the feedrate up around 150-200 in/min when dry cutting. If I need a nice finish around an edge, I do a finish pass a bit slower and use a spray bottle to apply a coolant manually. Done right, you can work in non-ferrous metal without problems, but I would not call it convenient unless you were doing it often enough to set up some sort of hold down system and flood. One thing to note is that some router heads move air through the motor housing to cool the motor. This may be done by a fan built into the router head, or in the case of a larger machine can often be done by the dust collection pulling air through the casting that the spindle motor is built into. In either case, the air sucked up through the head may pull the coolant up there with it, which can be a real mess. A shield may be required to prevent the coolant from going into the head, and in most cases you also need to remove the dust collection. If you are dry cutting the material, it's not really an issue. There are some router heads that don't really have air pulled through them, such as my old SCM Routomat heads. They have a fan that blows down around the outside of the casting from the top, which is nice for preventing material from being pulled up through the head (since there isn't a "through" on a head like that, just an "around"), but it also blows down on any of the dust that is not picked up by the dust collection.

Hope that info helps a bit, but really it comes down to what can you fit into your space, what are you trying to do with it, and how capable are you with maintaining, repairing or retrofitting the machine (deciding between new or used).

[mmoe]

Yes it will... BobCad can run routers.

If you're someone like me, and you do a lot of prototyping and small production runs, Bobcad is excellent. As you said, it's hard to beat specialized software, but if you specialize in random, it's hard to beat Bobcad.

I've done smaller level cabinetry with my routers using Bobcad, but I would have to say that a shop putting $500k worth of product out the door wold benefit from additional software more specialized to cabinetry. I was putting out 50-100k worth of cabinetry per year, in addition to other custom job-shop machining for others, but even at that level the limitations of using Bobcad were enough that I was weighing the idea of getting specialized software as well. Bobcad would still be excellent for the other stuff though, and two products would be complimentary more than redundant. It's possible that he already has software that can work with a machine by buying additional modules, if he's using cabinetry design software like Cabinet Vision. It won't be cheap, but at that level of output, would likely be worthwhile.

[ger21]

Ger,
What is that software? Let me know

CadCode

[BurrMan]

If you're someone like me, and you do a lot of prototyping and small production runs, Bobcad is excellent. As you said, it's hard to beat specialized software, but if you specialize in random, it's hard to beat Bobcad.

Hey mmoe,
Thanks for the response there. Lot's of good info.... It "IS" a small amount of info to ask for real details, but I am just getting an initial starting point... This thread has provided some valuable tips and starting points....

I will direct him to shopsabre and camaster as something to make a first look at (not necessarily a final decision, just something for him to crunch the decision)..

Here's some quick captures of the front of house from today...

Attachment 250972

Attachment 250970

There's an upper deck that is kindof unutilized properly... Lot's of wasted floor space below.... The building is like 1000 ft long, owned by the same guy.. There's some "outside" partition to the space that is partially covered but not enclosed. Not sure if it is allowed to enclose it, but there are lot's of options. This picture is just steped through the gate. Probably about 20ft to the right and another 40 to the left. The 40 to the left consists of 2 level office space. Might be able to claim some of that as floor space too..... My other friend is in the next door space with a heavy equipment/lift service production....

Thanks again for all the input... We'll see what he decides...

I'll be pointing him at this thread to read as "comments from guy's that know what their talking about" so to speak...

[mactec54]

BurrMan

NEWCNC have some nice machines, worth a look at, I saw there machines at a show in Atlanta,

New CNC Router

[mmoe]

BurrMan

NEWCNC have some nice machines, worth a look at, I saw there machines at a show in Atlanta,

New CNC Router

I think they are just importing Chinese routers, but that said I really don't have any issue with Chinese machines. If they are spec'd with higher end spindle, bearings/rails, etc. they are probably very nice. Their prices are actually pretty good compared to other companies (such as Laguna) that import machines like that. It's a low enough price that it seems like a good balance between the security of a state-side vendor and the value of an import. The "Motion 510" model looks like a very good value. That's a pretty serious multipurpose heavy duty machine for $100k, and they include installation and training with the purchase price. For a 22,000lb machine, including installation at $100k is a pretty big savings. Those machines often cost $5k-10k just to install.

[BurrMan]

BurrMan

NEWCNC have some nice machines, worth a look at, I saw there machines at a show in Atlanta,

New CNC Router

Those look awesome... Thanks.

Finding the right reseller that provides service like that is for sure...

Maybe I could mention that servicing the equipment means "A trip to Hawaii" and get a bidding war going? "I'll provide the chick's and the beer, who wants to fix my machine" kindof thing....